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The Dark Side of the INTJ

Nicodemus

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Aug 2, 2010
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really? even when a pattern emerges of others getting hurt by omission?
If it does not bother him, it is not his problem. If it hurts the people he is with, they are the ones to make a decision - to cut him loose, to put him in his place, to drown a puppy.
 

cascadeco

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If it does not bother him, it is not his problem. If it hurts the people he is with, they are the ones to make a decision - to cut him loose, to put him in his place, to drown a puppy.

Well, this is true. If the others continue staying with him even though they're being hurt in the process, then.... well.... it's kind of like they're digging their own grave, especially since they DO have a choice. And by staying with him, it's validating him to a degree - so of course he's going to continue on with his behaviors/choices if the consequences have never been negative enough or such that it causes him to reevaluate things. If he's never cut loose or not tolerated, then... what would cause him to change what's been working?
 

Kalach

Filthy Apes!
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INTJ
I'm likely to befriend him only and ignore the rest of what he wants, as it's his turf. I wanna *know* him.[...]

See, goddamnit, see? Do you see now, people?!

This is why you get lied to.


It's not truly good enough to say that "everyone wants to be known" and therefore say that people do other people a favour when they lavish attention on them and seek answers.

BECAUSE NO ONE LOOKS FOR EVERY ANSWER!

NO ONE EVER DOES!

THEY LOOK FOR THE ANSWERS THAT FIT THEMSELVES. ALWAYS. EVERY TIME.


What happens when you're looking for an answer that isn't there? Humanity in all its glory and complenitude isn't the NF project. This or that part of humanity is. Any given NF seeks what any given NF seeks. And other people screw with them to see if they'll turn a little more to the way this new partner really wants. Js do it. Ps do it.

I am wondering whether or not to exclude INFJs from this claim of a permanent inbuilt bias in all people.

But then, I am wondering if this bias really does always exist. It does when one is young and knows nothing.
 

Synapse

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Yes my INTJ family are like that sometimes, red flags aplenty. Some kind of variance in psychopathy. I am sometimes baffled that women turn a blind eye to this to fall in love with this kind of behaviour and you seem to be drawn to it. The exaggerations and the manipulation that happens disguised as truth and honesty. And it comes from your own background of the people who were in your lives as an image map. Its almost like this is some kind of behavior that creates excitement because there is energy here and the magic ingredients of success and that pull of false integrity and calculated charm. You want to have someone that matches your own success too I've read because you are in position of power so you seek out and are attracted to people in positions of power as a guiding reference to your own. And let me say there are a people in positions of power that get there because they have abused and controlled situations to shift and move to towards their outcome and create the necessary environment to be where they are. And on the outside appear functioning while on the inside are hollow and emotionally empty, without true identification of who they are and having known that. Realise this is attractive and use this as leverage in seeking what they want domination and control at a guess.
 
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I agree with Jim. I found this thread very distasteful, especially the suggestions of trying to manipulate said-"INTJ". For one thing, if you try to do so you will lose, not only humiliatingly, but also with no grounds for any sort of relationship later on. From what you're saying, he is much MUCH more experienced at manipulating you (and had success with doing so), and is also more likely to take the time to reflect on inconsistencies and deduce that he's being played. The chances of success are not high, and if/when he finds out, you are guaranteed payback in one form or another.

I would recommend not to involve yourself with such an individual romantically. The "damaged psyche" thing may be something that he's using to sell himself to others. If it is not and is affecting his behavior and attitudes, it is a sign that he needs help professionally. Not from you. Much less from you if you intend to gain his trust or form a relationship based on manipulation. Also, how else would you expect anyone to react to being called "cowardly"? Tell me honestly. If you're not even seriously dating, or in a stable relationship, there's obviously not that level of intimacy or trust involved that you could tell someone something like this. Even if you were in a stable relationship with him, why would you do so, and upon seeing his distress, spread it on some forum message board?

As an INTJ with trust issues who also lies by omission to avoid intimacy (I am very honest about that), I would not trust anyone who didn't respect my boundaries and decisions. Much less if such a person tried to judge me and impose his/her standards of morality, especially when such information was gained through hearsay (as is obvious in this case). In fact, I'd say that I'd go to the other extreme and avoid all forms of truth with such a person.
 

Curator

Another awesome member.
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most of what id say has already been said in here, so I will just say, Don't poke the bear... it will most likely maul you...
 

AgentF

Unlimited Dancemoves ®
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I agree with Jim. I found this thread very distasteful, especially the suggestions of trying to manipulate said-"INTJ". For one thing, if you try to do so you will lose, not only humiliatingly, but also with no grounds for any sort of relationship later on. From what you're saying, he is much MUCH more experienced at manipulating you (and had success with doing so), and is also more likely to take the time to reflect on inconsistencies and deduce that he's being played. The chances of success are not high, and if/when he finds out, you are guaranteed payback in one form or another.

I would recommend not to involve yourself with such an individual romantically. The "damaged psyche" thing may be something that he's using to sell himself to others. If it is not and is affecting his behavior and attitudes, it is a sign that he needs help professionally. Not from you. Much less from you if you intend to gain his trust or form a relationship based on manipulation. Also, how else would you expect anyone to react to being called "cowardly"? Tell me honestly. If you're not even seriously dating, or in a stable relationship, there's obviously not that level of intimacy or trust involved that you could tell someone something like this. Even if you were in a stable relationship with him, why would you do so, and upon seeing his distress, spread it on some forum message board?

As an INTJ with trust issues who also lies by omission to avoid intimacy (I am very honest about that), I would not trust anyone who didn't respect my boundaries and decisions. Much less if such a person tried to judge me and impose his/her standards of morality, especially when such information was gained through hearsay (as is obvious in this case). In fact, I'd say that I'd go to the other extreme and avoid all forms of truth with such a person.

this is worth addressing.

if you followed the course of the thread, you would hopefully have seen a realization emerge that manipulation and/or retribution of any kind were not on the menu. it may be subtle, but it's there. there was playful banter, yes. and, hopefully, this is a forum in which that (playful banter) is safe. regardless, the intent is and never really was to ultimately manipulate him. referring back to the OP, i care about this person.

i agree that attempting to manipulate him will fail miserably. i don't have the level of sophistication in that required. neither do i have the will or interest, really.

i think you may be onto something w/r/t the "damaged psyche" thing. i, for one, fell for it. and he didn't exactly have to point that out to me. the light has been extinguished in his eyes and i saw that the moment i first met him. and so, like a moth to the flame, i was drawn to him to try to reignite it. you are correct that i think he needs professional help and/or the steady, accepting support of someone who isn't afraid to be a shoulder to lean on over the course of his journey. at least, that's what i think i can offer him. i suggested professional help to him before, and i know it's something he is considering.

about the cowardly. not sure if you've done the Nohari/Johari window thing but it's worth checking out. the Nohari window template is here. anyway, you'll see a list of descriptors. adjectives that people you know can anonymously (or not) associate with you. i have been pretty scared of doing mine. i'm self-critical enough and was afraid of spiraling down into the unforgiving abyss if i did ask those close to me to contribute. i chatted with the INTJ in question and we agreed to do one. safely, and with each other. interestingly enough, he was more cautious than i was about doing the exercise. so we both did it. and then we discussed, analyzed, deconstructed the other person's selections. as noted in my post, he was fine with my descriptors with the exception of "cowardly" or "weak". parenthetically, he chose "needy" and "rash" for me, and how attractive was THAT from someone with whom i had entertained the hope of having a relationship one day!

the point is that the cowardly thing came up as the result of a (very healthy) conversation and exercise in armchair psychology. it was actually fun ribbing each other and being so bluntly honest. and we have set aside some in-person time to discuss why i would think of him as weak or cowardly, and the ways in which my neediness and rashness have affected him. we are both pretty excited about this.

and were i in a stable relationship with him, you'd better believe i'd still come to this board for input, guidance, perspective. it is one of the many resources i turn to as a person who wishes to be a better, more informed person. i think there's an element in your post that signals a call to preserving his dignity, however, and that point is well-taken.

i actually think we have crossed an intimacy/honesty barrier as the result of this thread, and the many private messages i received from people who had similar experiences (or much much worse) with the themes presented herein. all of you, thank you for that :) the net result is that i had a lengthy conversation with him yesterday, and tactfully/lovingly/honestly shared my concerns. yes, the ones described in this thread. most of them, anyway. and...he presented his usual wall, slowly let it down and for a moment, showed me his vulnerability*. you see, i'm pretty fucking vulnerable by default with this guy. and it simply will not work if there is such an imbalance in vulnerability. so i showed him it was safe to be vulnerable with me, at least bit by bit (i'm still learning how to do this). we shall see. but i think a lot of the game-playing and power struggle is falling away, or beginning to.

but i like the spirit of your reply, and shall contemplate it further. thanks. :)




*this is not a euphemism.
 
Last edited:

nightning

ish red no longer *sad*
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Coming from somebody with the background... I agree, don't try to make him into a social project for change. Some things just cannot be changed.

I had my own personal pet jobs in the past, and what I found was that you cannot change somebody who does not want to change. It's futile... a big waste of your time and it's highly likely to backfire on you...

Teasing banter is the oldest form of light manipulative game play. What nonssequitur said, 100% his playing field in which you have no chance of winning. The most you'll get is a smile from he in seeing you try and play along with you... And if he's feeling in the mood for cruelty... well not a pretty story if you feel you might develop an attachment to this pet project.
 

InvisibleJim

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Okay, I was thinking it is best to lay the facts out on a table without the glamour:

- You went on some dates with a guy
+ But you aren't in a committed relationship with him
+ He has stated that he isn't comfortable with the idea of a relationship right now
- You have slept with one another
- While dating he has slept with other people including his ex
+ He has been honest about this because you asked him to tell you about all of his sexual encounters and he agreed
- He is uncomfortable with an aspect of your living situation

Regarding what you think about this
- You find the guy interesting and a good sexual partner
- You find that he will word things very carefully or omit things to stay honest and to avoid certain issues
- You aren't pleased that he slept with people while dating you
+ But you aren't committed
- You dislike these behaviours enough to not want to date him any longer or this is not what you consider to be the way people behave while dating
+ You seem to be considering deepening the relationship to force monogamy
+ You seem to be considering enforcing a platonic friendship to allow him to behave as he as without having an impact on you

We don't have any additional information about his opinions or views at this time. As I said yesterday, you won't find that we can tell you what he thinks or why, those are really in his domain and are based upon whether you trust what he says to you if he chooses to share those things.
 

Athenian200

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What you said in the OP really didn't disgust me THAT much. I mean, yeah... it's not the most ethical way to go about things, and it's pretty selfish... but it's not like he's a terrible human being through and through. Not like a murderer, or a thief, or an abusive person. Certainly not enough for me to say that this is an INTJs dark side. INTJs can do much worse.

I have tried to subtly manipulate people in the way he seems to use, but I don't do it for selfish reasons like that, or in situations where it really counts. If and when I do that, it's usually because I genuinely believe that it's for the other person's own good, and sometimes I don't even manipulate in a way that makes me come across well. I'm actually focused on what I think is best for them.

Now, when I was really young, before I was 12 or so... I used to play mind games with people like that all the time. Not to achieve any particular purpose, but simply for entertainment and just to see if I could. When I asked my mother what I was like back then, she kind of scoffed and said, "You liked to mind-f*** your teachers occasionally. They never knew what to make of you. I always saw that smug sense of satisfaction on your face when you'd talk about it. I could see what you were doing, but they couldn't... they'd never assume that a kid was smart enough to play games like that."

As soon as I started getting Fe development, though, that behavior quickly stopped... to the point that I almost don't even remember it (but I have lousy Si anyway). Due to that Fe development, I would no longer do the sort of things that the INTJ is doing. But I can understand and respect the mindset behind it, even if I think that the behavior is wrong.

I would not get upset with the INTJ for behaving that way. I would say "Hmm... well, if you look at it that way, I guess it makes sense." And I would agree. However, I wouldn't like the possibility of him hurting other people with his manipulative, selfish behavior. So I would proceed to convince everyone in his life that he was a sociopath (which isn't hard to sell for an INTJ). Then, they would distrust him, and he could no longer cause them any harm. See, I wouldn't manipulate him, because he's too smart. But I would warn everyone else in order to protect them from him. Preferably anonymously. :wink:

Basically, I still don't consider his actions wrong, given his perspective. But I do feel the need to protect others from his actions, given my own perspective. Maybe he'll change his perspective, maybe he won't... it doesn't matter to me. What matters to me is impairing his ability to hurt others due to their trust in him.
 

AgentF

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the fact is, it's a pretty complex picture. as i start to unravel it, certain things are clear:

he has:
- behaved logically. sensibly
- did what he could to further his interests
- protected himself
- tried to protect the other person as far as he could

i'm not sure i haven't done the same, just in my own way.

yesterday he said that he's starting to understand that we both could have done some things differently. i think that's fairly humbling for him. i'm also observing that the more space i give him, the more he comes forward. he's possibly even more perceptive than i am about detecting people's motives. previously, i was ignoring his needs and asking him for things that *in general* have corresponded to someone i was dating, but that he in particular wasn't accustomed to giving people. i hadn't yet earned his trust. i think that journey, oddly enough, is just beginning.

i'm also realizing that the power struggle/excitement about each other was so strong that we both got lost in it. this may very well be the first time either of us has reached this level of intimacy with a [former] romantic partner. so that is all good. it's been very very messy, though.

i look forward to a friendship with him. that is all. i'm thinking that perhaps neither of us is ready for a serious relationship if we're capable of devolving into such an imbalanced relationship. i think some people will not bring out such unhealthiness in me, and vice versa. who knows. but, for now: friendship.
 

slowriot

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Am I the only one who is not disgusted at all?

Im not disgusted, I just dont think he has good ethics/morals. There are so many people that dont have that. Plus he's manipulative which many people are. Id not get involved with people like that, once I see they are trying to manipulate me, I jump ship.

Why would I use up my emotional energy on someone thats only going to dry me out? Especially if the synergy of emotional energy between us is unbalanced. Why I have never remained friends with women Ive been romantically involved with. Or where there atleast was some emotional barrier I could keep up.

But to go back to the talk of the dark side of the INT's. There is the difference between the intj and intp, when it comes to control. The intjs seem more interested in controling the enviroment, maybe not always in an agressive manner but more in a subtle fashion. While the INTPs main focus is on control of their inner self. INTPs are more likely to withdraw than to control externally. Im not saying INTJs are not trying to control their inner self, but that it seems more natural for INTPs to do so as a default. Im more likely to go into my own world when stressed.
 

InvisibleJim

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But to go back to the talk of the dark side of the INT's. There is the difference between the intj and intp, when it comes to control. The intjs seem more interested in controling the enviroment, maybe not always in an agressive manner but more in a subtle fashion. While the INTPs main focus is on control of their inner self. INTPs are more likely to withdraw than to control externally. Im not saying INTJs are not trying to control their inner self, but that it seems more natural for INTPs to do so as a default. Im more likely to go into my own world when stressed.

It's entirely true; as an INTJ I openly admit that I order the environment to help order myself, I succeed through achievements in my environment as well. That really does follow from having Pi-Je (Ni-Te) in the dominant and tertiary. But it has an upside that I can turn up in an environment and make myself useful in it. By contrast INTPs have Ji-Pe (Ti-Ne) and don't feel the need to define themselves through their environment and but tend to only find themselves to be productive in roles that fit their internal definition.
 

Amargith

Hotel California
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Am I the only one who is not disgusted at all?

Not disgusted but, if I were to know him, very careful on how to handle him, as he could potentially pose a danger to my well-being if I let him get too close, the way he is right now..which, if he's honest, is his good right. I'm not about to agree to his terms though I'm glad he's honest about it. And, if he's worth the investment, I might negotiate those terms though, and show him what I think they should entail.
 

AgentF

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Im not disgusted, I just dont think he has good ethics/morals. There are so many people that dont have that. Plus he's manipulative which many people are. Id not get involved with people like that, once I see they are trying to manipulate me, I jump ship.

Why would I use up my emotional energy on someone thats only going to dry me out? Especially if the synergy of emotional energy between us is unbalanced. Why I have never remained friends with women Ive been romantically involved with. Or where there atleast was some emotional barrier I could keep up.

But to go back to the talk of the dark side of the INT's. There is the difference between the intj and intp, when it comes to control. The intjs seem more interested in controling the enviroment, maybe not always in an agressive manner but more in a subtle fashion. While the INTPs main focus is on control of their inner self. INTPs are more likely to withdraw than to control externally. Im not saying INTJs are not trying to control their inner self, but that it seems more natural for INTPs to do so as a default. Im more likely to go into my own world when stressed.

the topic of his "inner moral compass" is still unresolved. my intuition says that, rather than "malignant" in nature or some such, his personal ethics specific to relationships are simply undeveloped, in some areas, precisely due to his ability to keep people at arm's length out of very deep fear. that's all that the manipulation, lying by omission, and denial of others' feelings (mine, his ex, even the new girl) really is.

not justifying, but i'm just beginning to see through it all.
 

guesswho

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They bait you with cookies to the dark side, and then give you none.

Who does that?
 
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