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The Dark Side of the INTJ

InvisibleJim

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how would you react if someone you like/respect (or have told you do :)) were to tell you he/she sees through those tactics and finds it hard to have a friendship as a result? not in a rude or judgmental way, just matter of fact?

There is a misunderstanding here, Ni users build walls of thought to protect their inner psyche more often than not. Intuition in it's introverted form feels the environment is threatening and tries to hide from it, seeking a safe environment to interact with. As Satine says; ENFPs have the magical ability to walk right through them and to play with the squishy inner Ni bits than many other types do. The other complication of Ni is that an Ni user can be crippled by even occasional small remarks by someone who they value or who they trust to let inside those walls. It's a learned defensive behaviour that is intrinsic to the type of cognition Ni dominants have.

The easiest way to separate an INFJ and an INFP? Prod an INFJ with a personal question when they don't know you and watch them slink around it. Slinky... slinky slink.

The easiest way to separate an INTJ from a crowd? Prod an INTJ with a personal question when they are uncomfortable and watch them ask a rhetorical question that only 'gives hints to the answer' in response; especially whilst in the crowd. Awkward shuffle, sometimes two is a crowd.
 

cascadeco

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There is a misunderstanding here, Ni users build walls of thought to protect their inner psyche more often than not. Intuition in it's introverted form feels the environment is threatening and tries to hide from it, seeking a safe environment to interact with. As Satine says; ENFPs have the magical ability to walk right through them and to play with the squishy inner Ni bits than many other types do. The other complication of Ni is that an Ni user can be crippled by even occasional small remarks by someone who they value or who they trust to let inside those walls. It's a learned defensive behaviour that is intrinsic to the type of cognition Ni dominants have.

Yes, this is true. I've only recently started to realize how much I try to control/account for everything, and much of my method of control is to be very protective with who is in my life in the first place. Extremely... preventative approach, rather than reactive. As for the walls... well, truthfully, I don't even want to be close to the vast majority of people. So the walls are very good in most cases. Of course the 'danger' is then not knowing how to remove them when I really don't want them there with those select few people; and unlearning some of what I naturally tend to do.

As to being crippled by small remarks from those we truly value, of course *because* we value/respect/care about them, we will probably hold their words/opinion far above that of others who aren't in our life in a similar capacity (This seems to be one of those 'human' things though - who doesn't do this?). Also, they've then by that point been incorporated into my life, and into my future, sort of - they're a part of my overall view -- so if they'd say something to bring all of that into question, well, that's a lot to potential rework internally - in terms of life view/vision, and my own ability to make good judgements might be called into question (by myself).

And if someone I TRULY liked/respected told me my walls sucked, etc etc, I think I'd most certainly withdraw and wouldn't trust them anymore because I'm sorry, my walls are just who I am to a degree, and slowly, slowly they'll be let down if someone over time is consistent and shows that they really want to know me - no matter what, and no matter how long it might take. If they 'let' me have my walls, my walls are much more likely to come down. I suppose, in a way, that's a bit of a test; if I don't have to BE anyone else than myself - myself being someone who's naturally protective and preventative - I'm free to be me without being pressured into opening up on the other persons' turf/pacing, then I'll feel more accepted and will then be that much more trusting/likely to then open up more, on my own. If they try to push me to be more open, quicker than I naturally would, I'd withdraw and would probably decide they're not the type of friend/relationship I really want. In fact - that's a theme, really - people who in the onset try to speed things up and push the intimacy/openness factor, and subtly label me as 'defective' for being more protective and slower-paced - get booted out fast. That's a dynamic that really, really bothers me.

If I'm already invested in someone (already chosen/decided I want them in my life), I'd probably be hurt and feel rejected if they then said they couldn't be my friend because of my rather private nature. Because, in essence, they really have a probem with who I am, then - and it's totally fine if my pacing doesn't jive with theirs and they need someone who's more naturally open and such, and if on their end they can't be friends with someone like me, but.... yeah.

I've probably totally tangented at this point and this isn't really related to the op anymore, but... :shrug: ;)
 

AgentF

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this is fascinating.

do you think INTJs hope or wish to be "known and accepted" then?
 

InvisibleJim

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this is fascinating.

do you think INTJs hope or wish to be "known and accepted" then?

Not really. I think in contrast to INFJs we are completely happy not be known and accepted, even by those close to us as long as we can find and maintain a comfortable balance. But when we do trust someone and open up then are rejected we kick ourselves very hard for offering that trust.
 

Synapse

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ENFPs have the magical ability to walk right through them and to play with the squishy inner Ni bits than many other types do.
The easiest way to separate an INFJ and an INFP? Prod an INFJ with a personal question when they don't know you and watch them slink around it. Slinky... slinky slink.
The easiest way to separate an INTJ from a crowd? Prod an INTJ with a personal question when they are uncomfortable and watch them ask a rhetorical question that only 'gives hints to the answer' in response; especially whilst in the crowd. Awkward shuffle, sometimes two is a crowd.

ENFPs magical ability to play squishy inner wha!? News to me. And INFJs and INFPs like slinky's, since when? And INTJ questioning, unless you mean ask knowledgeable questions that are going to require intelligent answers.

My walls are just who I am
Why are your walls who you are, are you saying your walls are your identity?
 

cascadeco

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Why are your walls who you are, are you saying your walls are your identity?

It's more that that element of myself - and everything I described above - isn't something that I see changing. My actual Identity goes far beyond that - but how I go about interacting with people, presenting myself to the world, and letting people in my life/ deciding if I would like them in my life, isn't really going to change.
 

InvisibleJim

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ENFPs magical ability to play squishy inner wha!? News to me. And INFJs and INFPs like slinky's, since when? And INTJ questioning, unless you mean ask knowledgeable questions that are going to require intelligent answers.

Why are your walls who you are, are you saying your walls are your identity?

I don't think you understood my statements, I said that INFJs and INTJs are like slinkies.

Yes, the walls are our identities, we wear who we think we are on our sleeves as much as Ji-Pes such as INFPs might voice who they think they are and their beliefs continually, we try to show that via action in how we live and structure the world - hence why you tend to find that Pi-Je types become vocal the more stressed they are instead of less.
 

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It's more that that element of myself - and everything I described above - isn't something that I see changing. My actual Identity goes far beyond that - but how I go about interacting with people, and letting people in my life/ deciding if I would like them in my life, isn't really going to change.

Thanks, it is interesting to read the insight. Does that mean privacy is really important, as well as trust, integrity and safety before sharing part of the inner world?
 

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I don't think you understood my statements, I said that INFJs and INTJs are like slinkies.

Yes, the walls are our identities, we wear who we think we are on our sleeves as much as Ji-Pes such as INFPs might voice who they think they are, we try to show that via action in how we live and structure the world.

That makes more sense, how about the need for debating and valuing intelligence, would the right kind of intelligent question and background in knowledge of subject matter be more helpful in how receptive and respectful you become to another persons opinions?
 

InvisibleJim

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That makes more sense, how about the need for debating and valuing intelligence, would the right kind of intelligent question and background in knowledge of subject matter be more helpful in how receptive and respectful you become to another persons opinions?

Yes, but its a double edged sword, ask a dumb question in the wrong way whilst demanding a kind of respect that we don't view that action to represent will puzzle us and can be distasteful.

As mentioned early, certainly INTJs place a lot of value in demarcating experiences and individuals and also the responses of those individuals in the environment.
 

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Yes, but its a double edged sword, ask a dumb question in the wrong way whilst demanding a kind of respect that we don't view that action to represent will puzzle us and can be distasteful.

Harsh, hahah, so if someone is being silly and asks a question that is in a humourous tone and doesn't make sense to the INTJ would that be seen as dumb and then respect would fly out the window and wouldn't take the person seriously next time as the reference of the initial statements?
 

InvisibleJim

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Harsh, hahah, so if someone is being silly and asks a question that is in a humourous tone and doesn't make sense to the INTJ would that be seen as dumb and then respect would fly out the window for taking the person more seriously next time as the reference of the initial statements?

There is a time for serious and a time for silly - of course.
 

Engineer

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To quantify that "walls" analogy, I'd liken the INFJ/INTJ defense mechanism to a type of armor. We wear it wherever we go, we don't ever take it off unless we are certain beyond a doubt that we would be safe if we did. That's why it's very bad to betray our trust in a relationship, friends or romantic. We'll just armor back up again, make the part of us that we got hurt more reinforced and insulated against "attack", and get the hell away from whatever it was that we thought we could take our armor off near.

I've always viewed the world as a minefield, to be traversed with caution-- one false step, action, or word can cause a person to go off on you or mess up progress that you've made with them (if you're like me and can't help but try to repair people). Keep that armor up, you'll be safe if that happens. We do, like Jim said, wear it on our sleeves, but it's sort of overlooked by most people who attempt to get in touch with us, seeing as it's passive and not loud, and we hide behind it almost always.

At least that's my look on it. The other INTJs might disagree.
 

ScorpioINTP

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this is fascinating.

do you think INTJs hope or wish to be "known and accepted" then?

I have not read every response, but I think INTx's want to be known and accepted by those in their inner circle for sure. I find it exhausting and tedious sometimes getting to these levels with new people, whom you don't know if you fully trust or want to invest your time in yet. It can get frustrating when you date people and they don't "get you". You feel like you wasted your time sometimes when it doesn't work out.
 

AgentF

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We do, like Jim said, wear it on our sleeves, but it's sort of overlooked by most people who attempt to get in touch with us, seeing as it's passive and not loud, and we hide behind it almost always.

i guess i see those walls very clearly because the INTJs obvious tendency to squirm when i try to explore what's underneath the scales. i find the word-smithing, smoke and mirrors, semantic acrobatics that ensue really interesting. the particularly slippery ones hide their creamy Cadbury core extremely well. but it's there, in my INTJs case i'm just frustrated and irritated that he kept me around as long as he did, never having a true intention of letting me in.

or so i suspect. i stopped dating someone who won an Oscar the other night to date this guy. i had to choose, and i chose the fucking reptilian. oh well!
 

cascadeco

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Thanks, it is interesting to read the insight. Does that mean privacy is really important, as well as trust, integrity and safety before sharing part of the inner world?

I'm hesitant to say privacy is 'really important', only because with the trust established, I may be very open with few walls. But yes, in the majority of everyday interactions with people, I'd probably be considered private - and that's because I'm not fostering relationships with most.

I also think it's important to make it clear that I treat trust in the person, and trust in the relationship/dynamic, as two separate things. So if I think the person is fine and dandy, but I don't trust in Them+Me, then I won't be open. It's the Them+Me that might often take longer to figure out. And, if Them+Me is a dynamic I don't care for, then I won't build on the relationship. Tied to this, pacing comes into play. I want to have a good idea of who the other person is - and have a longer lens than just a few days or weeks - before really opening up. Consistency is *extremely* important to me. Consistency of thought and action (and if they're inconsistent, then their inconsistency is a Consistent ;)). This takes Time to see. To see them in the context of a bigger picture, a longer timeframe, to see dips/fluctuations, etc.

Basically, if I start opening up and lowering walls, it's *indicative* of my starting to invest in the relationship. Outer actions following inner intent. I decide, then act. ;) What I don't do is act, play around, and then decide later on. I'm a very serious person, lol. ;) This is what I meant by my being preventative rather than reactive -- I'm going to do a lot more 'work'/weighing up front, rather than just diving in and later on deciding it wasn't a good idea. This is also what I meant about my trying to control/account for everything -- it's really just knowing to the best of my ability what the relationship is going to be and whether we're both generally wanting the same thing out of it, prior to my going in. It's also why relationships can be a thorn - as certain elements of them really don't work this way, and by nature need to be more fluid.
 

slowriot

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Walls are protection and in many cases because introverts dont have time to let everyone in. Its simply a mechanism that most introverts use to keep your energy levels balanced. Cogniive processes have very little to do with behavior. And reasons why one chooses to keep a tighter grip on their walls compared to other is based on experience or how you have chosen to relate to the world. Do some traits become more obvious in different types, sure. I see things I do in a lot written here. Particularly by INTJs.

We choose to let people in, not types. I had a long thing going with an ENFP and she got closer to me than anyone else did. Even more than the ENFJ I knew before, who according to theory should be able to break it down much easier. And should be my romantic "soulmate".

Maybe Im an INTJ /sarcasm
 

Amargith

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Harsh, hahah, so if someone is being silly and asks a question that is in a humourous tone and doesn't make sense to the INTJ would that be seen as dumb and then respect would fly out the window and wouldn't take the person seriously next time as the reference of the initial statements?

:devil: If that was the case, they'd not be so vulnerable to our kind...in fact, it's often coz we don't seem to make sense...at first glance, and are being silly, while often somehow still coming to the same conclusions as the INTJ, or showing them a different aspect of that same conclusion that draws them into our web...

:smooch:@Jim

Actual repeated silliness, without showing any capacity of actually being able to follow logic does get that response though, from what I've seen so far.
 

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What I don't do is act, play around, and then decide later on. I'm a very serious person, lol. ;) just diving in and later on deciding it wasn't a good idea.

Strangely I do that and I'm a very serious person. I can tell how peoples energies are and rarely need to determine intent, I just feel like diving in and saying stuff. In hindsight this has caused me problems, the classic was with an ISTJ ages ago, shock value that someone can be candid and forthright. hahah.
 
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