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The art of having conversations

Maverick

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Apr 29, 2007
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880
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ENTJ
I've been pondering lately about the way people prefer to communicate with others. There are styles that exist regardless of Extraversion/Introversion. I have noticed that some types prefer group talk, some types prefer one on one talk, others prefer simply making one liners and jokes,... I can see this sort of behavior on the forum too.

I was having dinner at some friends' place yesterday with my gf. We had a good time and they are great fun. They are very good socially but we both agreed that it is impossible to have an actual conversation with some of them. They seem akward, impatient, ill at ease, and preferring to keep things "light".

This made me think: "How often do I have the opportunity to really discuss something with someone? Less and less". The opportunities are scarce. At work, everyone wants to keep things simple. And even when it happens, I think surprisingly few people are good conversationalists. They just talk about themselves, serve you predefined opinions, switch topics too early, and don't bother to ask questions and to keep things open. The best conversationalists listen alot and ask many questions. My theory is that it is partly related to the security that people have in being intimate with others and showing themselves as they are. Keeping things light is like maintaining a distance with others, making sure things go well and conflict is avoided.

One of the reasons I get along so well with my gf (ISFJ) is that we can have long conversations about everything and nothing.

Ideas? Opinions? Conversation?
 

elfinchilde

a white iris
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The science of conversation is to speak; but the art of conversation is to listen.

It's not the words that matter, but the subtext they carry. In any conversation, there are perhaps two, or even three levels, all at the same time:

The first is the actual words spoken.
The second is that which is unsaid, that is the subtext beneath.
The third is the language of the body.

The art of conversation is to respond to the exact degree to which the other is comfortable.

That requires understanding of all three languages, which perhaps, is why so few are skilled at it.

The art of conversation resides in the power of the femme, the receptive principle. That power has unfortunately been lost, when people are not able to distinguish between being feminine, and feminist. But I digress.

Ours is an egocentric age. Mostly, people hear, but they do not listen anymore.

And so, the art has been lost.

You say? ;)

Edit: the words you use tell me that you want to be heard, and to speak. You want it on your terms: to you, the offence, if any, is that it isn't going your way. But then, in return, do you listen? :smooch:
 

nightning

ish red no longer *sad*
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Apr 23, 2007
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Conversations are good...

I am mostly a one on one conversationalist. To put it simply, I dislike small talk. I don't understand why people like that so much. I find it unproductive. It's like talking without saying anything. Lack of sincerity in the conversation I suppose. Talking to be polite, not because you want to have a chat with the other person. I suppose it makes it unlikely for me to engage another into conversation. For a few friends though I can... we can talk about everything and nothing. Part of opening up as you said is related to how at ease you are with them. I find that I talk more in situations where I don't feel like I'll be evaluated based on what I said. Perhaps that is why I dislike group conversations... because the things I say can be taken in so many ways that I would rather keep quiet than to risk making a blunder. I ought to correct that.
 

Haight

Doesn't Read Your Posts
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I think surprsingly few people are good conversationalists. They just talk about themselves, serve you predefined opinions, switch topics too early, and don't bother to ask questions or to keep things open.
I agree, but I don't think it's surprising. I think of it as a skill that's rarely studied and rarely taught.

My theory is that it is partly related to the security that people have in being intimate with others and showing themselves as they are.

Ideas? Opinions? Conversation?
Yes. . . I think your theory doesn't apply to me because I don't like being intimate with anyone other than notta, I don't like showing myself as I am ( and I don't do so in public, for that matter); however, I think I'm a skilled conversationalist that has studied communications, the art of listening, the art of persuasion, propaganda, etc. I did so because I believed early on that being a good conversationalist was probably one of the more important skills that one could have - or needs to have, rather.
 

LostInNerSpace

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My theory is that it is partly related to the security that people have in being intimate with others and showing themselves as they are. Keeping things light is like maintaining a distance with others, making sure things go well and conflict is avoided.


I would agree. I'm a brilliant conversationalist, just not usually with other people. It's almost always conversations I have with my alter ego.

The number of people I speak to IRL on an average day I could count on one finger. Often that's too many fingers. Usually when I do speak to someone the conversation goes something like this:

Me: Hi
Other Person: Hi
...
beep
...
beep, beep
...
beep
Other Person: Paper or plastic?
Me: Plastic
Other Person: Debit or Credit?
Me: Debit
Other Person: Thank You have a good day
Me: Ok, thanks. Bye

On the rare occasion I have a real conversation with someone it is usually because they are a brilliant conversationalist like the ENFP I went on a date with last week.

If you read my posts you'll see that I don't often really have conversations with people. It's like each post is a statement. My posts express opinion. Usually to have a good conversation you have to be skilled at asking interesting questions that reveal things about the other person. If you want the other person to like you, you hold back from telling them things and let them discover those things about you.
 

Domino

ENFJ In Chains
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I'll start up conversations with just about anyone my INTJ best friend doesn't outrightly block. lol (He thinks his Twins are too socially open, but he also confesses to being a "bitter crank").

I also have people just walk up and start telling me their life stories which can be very psychic and engaging. I had a woman at a gas station pump next to me start telling me about the death of her husband and child in a Volkswagen Beetle. (I drove one). It was very sad. She started crying. I would have hugged her if I didn't have transmission fluid and lithium grease on me from work.
 

elfinchilde

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Yea. As with Pink, elfie has all manner of strangers come up to her with their life stories too. Cab drivers will show you pictures of their kids, and tell you stories of their lives, how hard it is to get a fare nowadays. I've very seldom gotten a cab driver who didn't talk on the entire trip. :cry:

Children will come up with their little tales of their day. With that uncertain light in their eyes, that tells you they want to be heard.

Mostly, people want to be understood. but few want to understand. That is why the art has been lost. Everyone wants to talk; no one wants to listen.
 

Hirsch63

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Dec 4, 2007
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I certainly notice this as well. Perhaps it is rooted in culture. I wonder if the essentialy same topic was introduced in an american, chinese, african or latino environment how the conversation might evolve.

At least our culture seems in such an immediate gratification mindset, coupled with trepidation regarding political, social or monetary topics...makes having meaningful conversation difficult at best. So we are often stuck bantering with one another until we can find a better sense of common ground. This ability to find a common ground to seems to vary among people. I think that I at least "sense" when I can have a conversation with another and we would both profit from it. Productive exchanges demand a shared understanding of a framework within which the exchange occurs. A certain level of shared experience and knowledge would be necessary for this understanding to be reached.

This is fortunate coincidence...last evening I was considering some exchanges on this forum, and thinking also about advice I had shared with my nephew. Over the years I have begun to see communication as an economic process. We exchange conversational currency...It was Ygolo's post regarding Understanding and my subsequent reading of Covey's comments on it that jogged my memory of the economic aspects. We speak and we are seeking an exchange, hopefully a fair one. And a rich one, one with depth that you can bring your best perceptions to bear on a "high-quality" topic.

Using this economic model to evaluate your experiences (which are similar to many of mine as well) would lead me to see that you are attempting a transaction with someone who is not (or can not be) willing to "open thier purse". You pursue the exchange in good faith, you "make an offer" and the responses you get display an inability or downright disinclination to aknowledge the value of your offering. These are not bad people..What is the problem? Why won't they Buy or Sell? They are having you over for a visit an implied "offer" but have a defined limit on what you will be allowed to "buy". Are they or we in the wrong market? Selling ice-cubes to eskimos?

Couples will have their own internal economy, and the individuals themselves may one-on-one with you display a very different conversational manner. So many factors can influence actual face-to-face conversation.

Or perhaps it is in direct proportion to the decline of formal letter writing or written communication (rhetorical) skills in general. I have recently been engaged to assist and lecture at a local university, an environment that I had heretofore never experienced. When I began interacting with the 20-something students I was pretty suprised by the poor quality of their written work and general lack of interest in pursuing a topic in-depth. There are quite a few emotional reactions to topics (which is perhaps the economic eqivalent of counterfeit money) which at this educational level suprised me.

So opening up oneself could be an "economic" disaster for some....like walking around with a wad of $100 bills sticking out of your pockets or tipping your hand at cards when you are down to betting your boots.

Anyway, thanks for the topic Mav...I have got to get off to work for awhile.
 

elfinchilde

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oh ok. Hirsch has a point: cultural differences. For chinese, we're actually taught first to listen, then to speak. As the saying goes for us: "You have two ears and one mouth. So listen twice as much as you speak."

Perhaps therein the image of the enigmatic, nodding chinaman? :rofl1:

yes. it's the culture of me-me-me instant gratification, that has killed the art so. A pity.

Philo! Yes. engaging, deep conversations are always so good; no matter how brief the connection. It is sympatico. :)
 
S

sammy

Guest
oh ok. Hirsch has a point: cultural differences. For chinese, we're actually taught first to listen, then to speak. As the saying goes for us: "You have two ears and one mouth. So listen twice as much as you speak."

Perhaps therein the image of the enigmatic, nodding chinaman? :rofl1:

yes. it's the culture of me-me-me instant gratification, that has killed the art so. A pity.

Philo! Yes. engaging, deep conversations are always so good; no matter how brief the connection. It is sympatico. :)
Agreed with Dana, that saying is great! The style of communicating in the states has been, in my experience, really troublesome. Gets me into some trouble with people who misunderstand my intentions when I ask further questions to understand.

Some men think I am coming on to them when I just want to understand the points they are making. Some women seem to think we are the best of friends if I do this with them but it honestly doesn't mean much to me, I'm just trying to understand the context of their issues so that I don't jump to conclusions in my responses to them. I think not enough people actually listen, so when someone does these days, it's taken to mean something much more intimate than it really is.

But yes, there is an understanding and unspoken appreciation when you have those fleeting connections with strangers :)
 

elfinchilde

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What a marvelous saying!

it's usually meant as a rebuke, actually. the chinese are quite a sarcastic race. :dry: but yea, there's much wisdom in that. perhaps because the chinese language is a hieroglyphic one (as opposed to the english phonetic-based system), so there are always a lot of hidden meanings, and double meanings, even when people speak. for instance, the same sound can be used to mean two different words. Which changes an entire sentence's meaning.

Also, there is the art of the subtle rebuke: in another phrase, "speaking to the silkworm when the words are meant for the mulberry"--ie, the intent is aimed at one, but there's a deflection as words are ostensibly aimed at another person.

That's perhaps why we're taught to be more aware of the subtext and the hidden in conversation, come to think of it now...
 

nightning

ish red no longer *sad*
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it's usually meant as a rebuke, actually. the chinese are quite a sarcastic race. :dry: but yea, there's much wisdom in that. perhaps because the chinese language is a hieroglyphic one (as opposed to the english phonetic-based system), so there are always a lot of hidden meanings, and double meanings, even when people speak. for instance, the same sound can be used to mean two different words. Which changes an entire sentence's meaning.

Also, there is the art of the subtle rebuke: in another phrase, "speaking to silkworm when the words are meant for the mulberry"--ie, the intent is aimed at one, but there's a deflection as words are ostensibly aimed at another person.

That's perhaps why we're taught to be more aware of the subtext and the hidden in conversation, come to think of it now...

I have never thought of it that way... but yes it's true. You see this highlighted in Cantonese TV dramas... sometimes the plot revolves around nothing but slightings hidden by an outward appearance of flowery compliments. That's the whole purpose of the show... people find amusement in spotting the rebukes. The more cutting, the better. It's seen as cleverness :mellow:
 

TenebrousReflection

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Sep 30, 2007
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sx/sp
I've been pondering lately about the way people prefer to communicate with others. There are styles that exist regardless of Extraversion/Introversion. I have noticed that some types prefer group talk, some types prefer one on one talk, others prefer simply making one liners and jokes,... I can see this sort of behavior on the forum too.

I was having dinner at some friends' place yesterday with my gf. We had a good time and they are great fun. They are very good socially but we both agreed that it is impossible to have an actual conversation with some of them. They seem akward, impatient, ill at ease, and preferring to keep things "light".

This made me think: "How often do I have the opportunity to really discuss something with someone? Less and less". The opportunities are scarce. At work, everyone wants to keep things simple. And even when it happens, I think surprisingly few people are good conversationalists. They just talk about themselves, serve you predefined opinions, switch topics too early, and don't bother to ask questions and to keep things open. The best conversationalists listen alot and ask many questions. My theory is that it is partly related to the security that people have in being intimate with others and showing themselves as they are. Keeping things light is like maintaining a distance with others, making sure things go well and conflict is avoided.

One of the reasons I get along so well with my gf (ISFJ) is that we can have long conversations about everything and nothing.

Ideas? Opinions? Conversation?

Great topic!
(Hmmm... if one wants to give a rep bump to Maverick, should one use positive or negative rep? :))

I see that a lot in myself and others. Some people seem to be able to talk about anything, anytime with anyone (I'm guessing strong extroversion, but it could be other things too), but for myself, I'm only comfortable talking about serious conversation topics (things that are either emotion/feeling based or things that could be divisive like politics or religion) in a one on one (or sometimes two others if I know them both very well). In addition to a very strong preference for one on one communication, I'm also only comfortable talking about those things when "no other ears are present". When it comes to people I know and deal with on a regular basis (as either friends, relatives or acquaintances) I tend to be fairly cautious until I have a good feel for what types of topics I could comfortably discuss with someone (how judgmental I expect them to about certain things and how much respect they show for privacy (do they have discretion, or are they gossipers) are big factors to me).

My on-line behavior can seem like a sharp contrast to that since I am far more willing to talk about most things (not all, but most) with complete strangers, but part of that is because even if they are judgmental, while it may sting a little, there really isn't any of the same social repercussions and fallout to be worried about (no "political" aspect involving circles of friends/family/acquaintances etc). In most on-line conversations (at least at a place like here), I often want to get different perspectives on my thoughts and ideas, and being as open as I can be comfortable with in that regard has the best chance at honest feedback that will have meaning to me.

Most of my on-line conversations are either about wanting to learn about myself and others, or as a way to give an outlet to thoughts that are trapped in my head that I have nobody else to discuss them with in person. Its very rare for me to find someone in person that I'm very comfortable talking to about personal or divisive issues (the ones that I'm comfortable talking to all live in other states now and seldom have time to talk), so most of my real-life conversations are relatively meaningless to me, so I can relate to the frustration of lack of good conversation. Over the last year or so, I've tried to be more open minded about who I'm willing to talk about such things with in person and try to find subtle ways to let those people know I'd be open to more meaningful conversations, but I don't want to be too direct about it since most of them have known me for years and see me as reserved and reluctant to talk about most things because thats how I was for a long time and trying to be otherwise may seem like a shock to them without understanding me.
 

elfinchilde

a white iris
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I have never thought of it that way... but yes it's true. You see this highlighted in Cantonese TV dramas... sometimes the plot revolves around nothing but slightings hidden by an outward appearance of flowery compliments. That's the whole purpose of the show... people find amusement in spotting the rebukes. The more cutting, the better. It's seen as cleverness :mellow:

we're ebil. :cheers:

edit: one more thing tho: i am not always the same person in different settings. as in, if the crowd i'm with is a passive one, and someone needs to start up the conversation, then, i'm likely going to be the livewire. If it's with a group of chatty people, all speaking at the same time, then, i adopt the role of the listener. It all depends on what the situation requires of me. basically, i see no need to dominate or express all the time. (though this may be upbringing rather than mbti personality. :huh: )
 
S

sammy

Guest
we're ebil. :cheers:

edit: one more thing tho: i am not always the same person in different settings. as in, if the crowd i'm with is a passive one, and someone needs to start up the conversation, then, i'm likely going to be the livewire. If it's with a group of chatty people, all speaking at the same time, then, i adopt the role of the listener. It all depends on what the situation requires of me. basically, i see no need to dominate or express all the time. (though this may be upbringing rather than mbti personality. :huh: )
Tailor-fit Elfie ;) Adapting to different situations is a really good skill to have. Perhaps that is the problem with the people in Maverick's OP... they haven't learned to adapt (yet)?
 

Haight

Doesn't Read Your Posts
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edit: one more thing tho: i am not always the same person in different settings. as in, if the crowd i'm with is a passive one, and someone needs to start up the conversation, then, i'm likely going to be the livewire. If it's with a group of chatty people, all speaking at the same time, then, i adopt the role of the listener. It all depends on what the situation requires of me. basically, i see no need to dominate or express all the time. (though this may be upbringing rather than mbti personality. :huh: )
That's called "Monitoring." There's a thread about it somewhere around here.

And that's what I was alluding to when I mentioned that it was a skill. In other words, being what the other person/persons want you to be is a skill that takes practice. Doing that AND getting exactly what you want out of the conversation is more of an advanced move, in my opinion.
 

elfinchilde

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That's called "Monitoring." There's a thread about it somewhere around here.

And that's what I was alluding to when I mentioned that it was a skill. In other words, being what the other person/persons want you to be is a skill that takes practice. Doing that AND getting exactly what you want out of the conversation is more of an advanced move, in my opinion.

ooh. wise words from the owner of the site himself. ;)

and yea, Haight. Had wanted to say this for quite a while, but never got the chance to: in some previous thread, some people were asking why you get to be the commanding authority of this website. You had given a flippant answer then. As with your persona.

But elfie believes they may have missed it. Your real answer lies in your signature already.
 

GZA

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I think I generally enjoy listening more than talking, but there are obviously exceptions to that. When talking to people I generally ask questions aboutt hem and how something relates to them to try and understand what they are saying better, especially if I'm trying to help them.

But a lot of the time I just joke around, too, and a lot of the time I don't want to talk at all. The joking conversations are like... this!:

Friend: Hey!
Me: Hello
Friend: What are you up to?
Me: Not much, just buying a CD, you?
Friend: Getting shaving cream and deoderant
Me: Really? I'm pretty happy you're finally going to start wearing deoderant
Friend: *laughs* Oh really?
Me: Yah, got to say, I'm a little relieved :D

Just things like that where I notice something about them and joke about it.

Yah, a lot of conversations are just people making totally useless small talk, and I hate those. Like if my parents drag me to some thing with their friends and they go "How is school? :)". Christ... even if they geniunely care, which they might care a little bit (doubt it though), its a crappy conversation because while I want to say "I hate school and want to burn it down", everyone gets mad if you say that. Sincere conversation is few and far between :(
 
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