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Hatred- useful or poisonous?

cascadeco

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You hate people who don't understand you and don't accept you. You hate them for their judgements cast in your direction.

You're doing the same thing to them. It's rather self-fulfilling.

(assuming you're being honest in this thread and aren't writing a bunch of stuff just for the sake of argument that you don't even personally believe)
 

miss fortune

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to put it in the bluntest terms- racists are ignorant jackasses who look at people by thier skin color or national origin instead of finding a good reason to like or dislike someone- they're shallow, incurious and closing themselves off to a miserable life of mistrust and paranoia

now quit playing devil's advocate :nono:
 

redacted

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In such a broad question as whether or not hatred is useful or poisonous, the only truth you're ever going to get to is subjective.

well all truth is subjective. so should we just disregard it?

anyways, i was trying to frame "useful" in a way that you'd understand. useful, the way i'm saying it, means useful to YOU. do the pros outweigh the cons? if so, it's useful.

and i think that hate is never "useful". active, passionate dislike is pointless. if you don't like something, accept the situation for what it is and strategize on how to make it better. sitting there hating the situation is NOT strategically useful.

you don't like something? change it. you don't want to change it? change your opinion of it.

name me a better strategy than that.
 

Night

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I thought seeing things as they affect me is personal identity.

I personally don't care what color people are, but what does being a racist have to do with "self-pity and pain?" This has never made sense to me and sounds like a dime store romance novel.

Best of luck, Uber.

I sincerely mean that: I like you and I suspect your vitriol is an awkwardly-positioned disguise intended to buffer against bygone agony.

Over the years, I'm confident that it will lose its meaning as your pain subsides.


Personal identity is about far more than the individual.
 

cascadeco

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and i think that hate is never "useful". active, passionate dislike is pointless. if you don't like something, accept the situation for what it is and strategize on how to make it better. sitting there hating the situation is NOT strategically useful.

you don't like something? change it. you don't want to change it? change your opinion of it.

Yep, this is how I tend to view things too.
 

redacted

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The meaning is crystal.

See things for what they are, rather than how they affect you.

(that's very anti Fi)

i don't agree. you need to know how things affect you in order to change your situation in a way that positively affects you.

otherwise, you sit there intellectualizing -- a passive observer of your own life. i've been down that path; it sucks. :yes:

edit: of course, you have to see things for what they are too.
 

nightning

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Let's imagine a hypothetical situation in which a white American neighborhood sees a rise in Mexicans moving into the neighborhood. In principle, do you not think the whites of that neighborhood should have the right to defend their establishment from outsiders?

This is what happens when foreigners move in, your culture is at stake. And I'm not saying that I'm interested in driving away the outsiders (I'm playing Devil's Advocate), but why is it so wrong for someone who values their heritage to preserve their culture? Incoming outsiders are pretty much an invasion of that.

To narrow it down even more, a stranger comes barging into your house, do you not have any right to defend yourself?

You are attempting to twist logic here... please define HATRED for me.

Defending yourself... defending what's yours does not require hatred. Hatred is an extreme form of anger. You can defend without that.

Survival of the fittest. Defending your land or culture against invaders... all you need is exclusion. No need to hate. It's human nature to dislike and to some degrees hate. But hate is not the only thing that prompts you to act.

Your first two examples do not fly very well for me even though I understand the feelings involved. Take the last, a stranger coming into my house. I will defend myself, my family, home, property. I wouldn't hate the guy though... anger but not hate. Unless they hurt or kill my family. But in this case they started with violence... so I suppose I have cause for hate... as impulses would be difficult to control.
 

redacted

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You are attempting to twist logic here... please define HATRED for me.

Defending yourself... defending what's yours does not require hatred. Hatred is an extreme form of anger. You can defend without that.

Survival of the fittest. Defending your land or culture against invaders... all you need is exclusion. No need to hate. It's human nature to dislike and to some degrees hate. But hate is not the only thing that prompts you to act.

true.

Unless they hurt or kill my family. But in this case they started with violence... so I suppose I have cause for hate... as impulses would be difficult to control.

yeah, and even then, your hate wouldn't be useful. it would just BE.
 

Grayscale

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in my opinion, hate is what results when something violates your principles to such a great extent that deep, passionate feelings far beyond distaste (which can be ignored) are felt.

a lot of people confuse anger with hate, but i think anger is just sadness (discontent with something) mixed with aggression (resulting from intensified frustration) the frustration/aggression usually results from the inability (perceived or not) to resolve that which someone is discontent with. people who have issues that they are never able to resolve usually become frustrated with themselves and thus tend to relate to the world in an angry way (seen as angry by other people) and are often bitter in the sense that are likely to blame their adverse life situation on someone other than themselves.

this is the difference between people who display hate on occasion and people who happen to display hate quite a bit (not naming names)... one is legitimately based in passionate dislike of something, the other is simply a result of someone disliking themselves and thus relating to the world most easily in that manner.

anyways, people often display anger towards things they hate but the two are not synonymous. it starts with passionate feelings of dislike, often which can implicate things that someone finds sad, lastly capped off by an inability to resolve whatever the subject of hate is, and that is how people often display hate (through anger). this is why i would say that although there are definitely things i hate, im not someone who often finds myself frustrated, and as an extension of that, angered by things.

take serial killings... the reason for dislike is obvious, the implications are sad, and lastly there is nothing you or I can really do to stop it. serial murder is something i hate, and that i would feel visibly angry about if it weren't for the fact that i realize banging my head against the wall doesn't benefit anyone, and certainly not myself.
 

redacted

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For most who hate, it is less about the target and more about how they've been targeted.

i agree. i see the point you were trying to make now.

but you still have to be aware of how you're affected in order to change things and act more rationally. if you feel yourself hating something, you must explore WHY. why are you so affected that you HATE? how exactly were you affected? you must know these things in order to change your behavioral patterns.

;) Still think I'm an NF?

hellz yeah. each post of yours i read makes me more sure you're INFJ. with very strong Ti of course. you = older (i think), more eloquent me. :)
 

Grayscale

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but you still have to be aware of how you're affected in order to change things and act more rationally. if you feel yourself hating something, you must explore WHY. why are you so affected that you HATE? how exactly were you affected? you must know these things in order to change your behavioral patterns.

although i dont think hate is "wrong", i do think that in and of itself it is unimportant. it's more of a symptom... correspondingly strong to the severity of what provoked it.

there are two possible foundations to feeling hatred, legitimate and illegitimate. i say, acknowledge the feeling, move past it, then consider the source objectively and respond accordingly. if the source is illegitimate, learn what you can about why your response was unreasonable, if it is legitimate, find what you can do to resolve what initially provoked you. past those two directives, i see no benefit to dwelling on feelings of hatred.
 

redacted

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although i dont think hate is "wrong", i do think that in and of itself it is unimportant. it's more of a symptom... correspondingly strong to the severity of what provoked it.

there are two possible foundations to feeling hatred, legitimate and illegitimate. i say, acknowledge the feeling, move past it, then consider the source objectively and respond accordingly. if the source is illegitimate, learn what you can about why your response was unreasonable, if it is legitimate, find what you can do to resolve what initially provoked you. past those two directives, i see no benefit to dwelling on feelings of hatred.

i agree.

i never said hate was wrong, btw. it's a part of life. i just think it serves no strategic purpose, ever.

well, i take that back. i guess it would be strategic to hate if people are expecting you to, and would think less of you if you didn't for some reason.
 

nightning

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For most who hate, it is less about the target and more about how they've been targeted.

A random thought... How is hatred and fear related?

It seems to me like we hate what we fear. We hate unjust actions because we fear it happening to us, to those we care about.

Oh right... hate is to fear... hate is just an emotion just as fear is just another emotion. Asking if hatred is useful or poisonous is like asking if fear is useful or debilitating. It can be both... depending on the extent and how you deal with it.
 

Grayscale

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i agree.

i never said hate was wrong, btw. it's a part of life. i just think it serves no strategic purpose, ever.

well, i take that back. i guess it would be strategic to hate if people are expecting you to, and would think less of you if you didn't for some reason.

i dont participate in the statement/response form of discussion. i gather what information i can about what someone is saying and offer a relating piece of the bigger puzzle. if i disagree with something then i generally address it specifically, otherwise i tend speculate without necessarily directing it at or in response to anyone. ;)

as for pretending to hate just to conform, i say display your higher understanding of things as an example for other people to follow
 

Night

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A random thought... How is hatred and fear related?

It seems to me like we hate what we fear. We hate unjust actions because we fear it happening to us, to those we care about.

Oh right... hate is to fear... hate is just an emotion just as fear is just another emotion. Asking if hatred is useful or poisonous is like asking if fear is useful or debilitating. It can be both... depending on the extent and how you deal with it.

Fear is a conditioned response to negative stimuli in our environment - those that would cause us harm, immediate or otherwise.

Hate is a multiplicity of negative emotions cooperating into a composite behavior.

Hate and fear are interrelated in this way - taken to a deeper premise, I'd further wager that they are transient emotional states intended (fundamentally) to bolster survival.

Hate is a frustration; a perversion of one's prerogative to master the unknown.
 

Grayscale

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A random thought... How is hatred and fear related?

It seems to me like we hate what we fear. We hate unjust actions because we fear it happening to us, to those we care about.

Oh right... hate is to fear... hate is just an emotion just as fear is just another emotion. Asking if hatred is useful or poisonous is like asking if fear is useful or debilitating. It can be both... depending on the extent and how you deal with it.

to relate fear to my thoughts on this, i would say fear is a founder for discontent. fear > discontent (sadness) > frustration/aggression (anger). therefore, i would place hate in the same "_____" as fear even though i dont think the two are directly related.

ex.

a man sees another man who is of a superior physique and gets angry at him. he might even be inclined to say he "hates" him, but this is really just a misinterpretation of his anger.

fear of inadequacy driving discontent with one's level of adequacy, met with tangible, indisputable evidence of [what that person considers to be] their inadequacy which leads to frustration of their inability (although in this case it's merely perceived that way) to resolve... if this "inability attitude" has been happening for a long time, then they would consequently feel more deeply frustrated to the point where it becomes anger

frustration is a result of one's inability to effect change. this is obvious when someone is trying to work on some sort of project and things dont "go their way"... they become frustrated, angry, and often times display bitterness by blaming something ("whoever wrote these instructions is a fucking moron!!!")


it's confusing because anger can result from fear or hatred, or other things, and often times anger is equated to hatred. it's also possible to hate (although not legitimately) something out of fear of it. fear of inadequacy in some way might even lead someone to hate themselves...
 

nightning

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Hate is a multiplicity of negative emotions cooperating into a composite behavior.
Hmmm right right... 5 basic emotions which mix together to form hundreds of other emotions. I've forgotten my lessons... thank you for the reminder.

They say ultimately all emotions exists to bolster survival. Emotions to guide approach and avoidance expressions to facilitate communication. Emotions prompt actions.

Hate is a frustration; a perversion of one's prerogative to master the unknown.
Perhaps...
 

Grayscale

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Hate and fear are interrelated in this way - taken to a deeper premise, I'd further wager that they are transient emotional states intended (fundamentally) to bolster survival.

how does merely identifying something you passionately dislike help you survive? hate is a symptom, and fear is a motivator. fear is tied to survival, but the two arent necessarily going to result in the symptom of hatred.

i hate the behavior of serial murder because it is removing the only real asset someone has for intrinsically unnecessary reasons, not because i fear for my survival.

i strongly dislike and might even be inclined to casually say i hate sharp objects that are turned up in the general direction of my face and torso because i recognize that possibility for me to trip at any time without warning (as it has happened in the past) and impale myself on said sharp object.

i think ultimately everything does boils down to being either motivated by fleeing from what you fear or pursuing what makes you happy/love, and hate can potentially be founded in the latter... basically what i consider legitimate hatred.
 
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