The Power of Accusation

[Ming]

I think what the OP is trying to say is when you're trying to talk/argue/try to get a point across to an opposite party, they make comments about you that is completely irrelevant to the suggested topic.

For example, you're talking about a maths equation that you perceive to know the answer to, but another person disagrees. In his defense, he attacks with a negative comment (ie, 'you're gay') to justify his answer - which of course does not make any contribution at all.

Yes, I do agree that it is annoying. I don't know how I should react, because he supposedly uses the words with a connotation for insult. You see, I can't deny that either, because I do associate with what the person said (eg, stupid, weak, gay, and other words that they use with an offense in their minds) - but I don't agree with the, I guess, 'motif' behind it.

And it's as if you're torn between two sides - whether to say yes, or no.

It's honestly laughable - it's so weak and stupid. What I think the OP is trying to say is that this is what a lot of people do - and it's foolish and immature.

 

[ThatGirl]

I think you should try writing down everything you think and organizing it by subject. Then go through and separate your beliefs from your thoughts. Then rewrite it in essay form. Then take that essay and go through and substitute as many polysyllabic words with their definitions as you possibly can. Rewrite for clarity. Does it still make sense to you? to others?

Even that post didn't make sense....

TG, I was hoping the method I described above would help you turn the gibberish you normally post into something that people can understand. I don't think you're stupid, although plenty of people think you're completely full of shit, I just think you're disorganized.

Lol, blind leading the blind.

^^You're a riot. You haven't said anything AT ALL on topic. I've provided germane references which you are just ignoring.

Both you and TG are using this thread to bitch about forum politics under the guise of discussing the broader subject. Stop being such a bloody hypocrite.

Wrong


Which I would have rather not shown, since it instantly takes the mind to one understanding and debates one specific topic, rather than the idea behind it.

As a fore thought, I would also like to point out that guilt is the main contributing factor to the perception of false accusation....another point that should not be ignored.

But this is due to the fact that one may misinterpret conversation for accusation, two very different things.

 

[Synapse]

Awesome thread made me laugh.

 

[Little_Sticks]

This thread is ironically going off-topic while being on-topic at the same time.

You're in effect not ruining the thread at all per usual squabbeling. Well done, noobs, way to indirectly stay on topic. Sometimes trolling a board is more work than pretending to simply be retarded.

 

[highlander]

I have been thinking about this a lot lately.

There is one thing I HATE, and that is when people accuse you of something without trying to figure out the answer to completion first.

It comes from an idea, wanting to bring something to light, but is rarely back by factual evidence. This is why the accusation happens, and not the counter measure.

If you knew something for a fact, you wouldn't need to convince others through lengthy campaigns, it would be self evident in fact.

But there is a power behind the sheer effort to accuse.

For one it tarnishes a preexisting stature. Two it instantly puts you in the offensive position asking others to comply to your ideas. Both of which do not sit well with an 8.

Even if the accusation is false, it only serves to create doubt unless extinguished completely, and since they are most often based on subjective interpretations, this is not so easy the case.

For as much as someone can prove one perspective in theory, the opposite is also true...depending on how you look at it.

So accusation creates the false dynamic, and this leads to irrelevant consequences. This is where peoples minds get muddied by the lack of truth, and that leads to an entire world of confusion.

If this did not exist, or people took more responsibility for the things they create, a lot more people would find peace, and express themselves more openly and without fear.

It is a shame.

I believe I understand what you are saying and that this is reasonably clear but to make certain, ThatGirl, can you provide an example of a scenario where this has happened?

 

[highlander]

I think you should try writing down everything you think and organizing it by subject. Then go through and separate your beliefs from your thoughts. Then rewrite it in essay form. Then take that essay and go through and substitute as many polysyllabic words with their definitions as you possibly can. Rewrite for clarity. Does it still make sense to you? to others?

TG, I was hoping the method I described above would help you turn the gibberish you normally post into something that people can understand. I don't think you're stupid, although plenty of people think you're completely full of shit, I just think you're disorganized.

LEGERdeMAIN, I'm sure you're trying to help and I'm sure what you are saying makes perfect sense to you but I don't understand what you are saying - that is with regards to how to organize what you write. Is that a suggestion specific to what you see in TG's writing or is it how you recommend people organize their thoughts and get them down on paper in general? I'm not saying it's wrong or bad or anything of the sort. I just haven't ever seen anything like that.

 

[ThatGirl]

Just look at the legal system. You see it all the time.

Once someone makes an accusation whether true or false, it automatically associates someone with the issue. Even if it wasn't there to begin with.

Look at rape accusations. Which are so open to subjective interpretation they cause a whole investigation into the situation, based on popular theory.

There is power behind it. If a woman accuses a man of rape, whether the charges stick or not, that person will always be associated as a possible sex offender.

So even if the end result isn't achieved, the lasting effects of the accusation can be just as detrimental.

There is power in the hand of the accuser. Like I said, just look at the legal system, though this dynamic can be observed anywhere, even in the irony of this thread.

Idk, I guess it just pisses me off that people accuse then investigate, rather than investigate then accuse. Its fascinating.

 

[Salomé]

You're being incredibly naive. Why would anyone deliberately relinquish that kind of power? Most people aren't interested in justice, they just want to win.

 

[rav3n]

In order to arrest a perp, a criminal investigation has already happened. The question would be how to interpret data and how circumstantial the evidence. There are many, many more guilty parties set free due to technicalities or insufficient evidence, than innocent perps being falsely accused.

I don't know one human being who hasn't drawn an inaccurate conclusion, so it's kind of hypocritical to complain about it unless a person has perfect judgment. This doesn't mean you shouldn't complain about a specific incident of inaccurate conclusion. It means that the same lens should be applied internally, rather than purely externally. You might be surprised at what you find within.

 

[ThatGirl]

Eh, I've had my share of power. If there is one thing that I have learned is that it needs to constantly be maintained, that the effects aren't as ideal as they may seem, and that in the end you only fuck yourself by fucking your environment.

I guess I just see it far easier and more effective to focus on things that are more substantial by promoting your cause through the state of your environment.

I know, that sounds lame.

 

[highlander]

You're being incredibly naive. Why would anyone deliberately relinquish that kind of power? Most people aren't interested in justice, they just want to win.

Perhaps it is because they have integrity. Perhaps they see the damage to people that unfounded accusations can cause. Perhaps they care about someone besides themselves.

There is also the question as to what it means "to win."

When somebody does this sort of thing, it does impact my perception of them. Depending on how the accusation is communicated and in what context, I may feel they are untrustworthy. It depends on how it is done I suppose. In either case, I'm afraid I'm with TG on all of this.

 

[Salomé]

Perhaps it is because they have integrity. Perhaps they see the damage to people that unfounded accusations can cause. Perhaps they care about someone besides themselves.

There is also the question as to what it means "to win."

When somebody does this sort of thing, it does impact my perception of them. Depending on how the accusation is communicated and in what context, I may feel they are untrustworthy. It depends on how it is done I suppose. In either case, I'm afraid I'm with TG on all of this.

With her how? In being naive? In saying "boo hoo, people aren't fair"? You seem to be suggesting that I am justifying the spreading of malicious accusations. I'm not. I'm just realistic about why it happens. I'm looking at the bigger picture. It's obvious why people/organizations/governments/political candidates/lawyers/police/PR consultants/newspaper editors do this, given human psychology, and that they will continue to do it - because it's effective. Just sighing and saying "it's a shame" is pretty fucking pointless. Of course it would be just awesome if everyone acted from a place of integrity, but it's also never going to happen. The fact is those with a drive for power seldom care much for personal integrity - hence the aphorism "Power corrupts".
Therefore, the only thing we can do is educate ourselves about our vulnerable credulity, and regard all accusations with a healthy dose of skepticism.

 

[rav3n]

With her how? In being naive? In saying "boo hoo, people aren't fair"? You seem to be suggesting that I am justifying the spreading of malicious accusations. I'm not. I'm just realistic about why it happens. I'm looking at the bigger picture. It's obvious why people/organizations/governments/political candidates/lawyers/police/PR consultants/newspaper editors do this, given human psychology, and that they will continue to do it - because it's effective. Just sighing and saying "it's a shame" is pretty fucking pointless. Of course it would be just awesome if everyone acted from a place of integrity, but it's also never going to happen. The fact is those with a drive for power seldom care much for personal integrity - hence the aphorism "Power corrupts".
Therefore, the only thing we can do is educate ourselves about our vulnerable credulity, and regard all accusations with a healthy dose of skepticism.

This is an excellent point! It denotes self-responsibility of believing or not. With the advent of the Internet, information is available to everyone and up to each individual to filter through a lens of acceptance or skeptism, particularly if the information doesn't resonate true.

 

[highlander]

With her how? In being naive? In saying "boo hoo, people aren't fair"? You seem to be suggesting that I am justifying the spreading of malicious accusations. I'm not. I'm just realistic about why it happens. I'm looking at the bigger picture. It's obvious why people/organizations/governments/political candidates/lawyers/police/PR consultants/newspaper editors do this, given human psychology, and that they will continue to do it - because it's effective. Just sighing and saying "it's a shame" is pretty fucking pointless. Of course it would be just awesome if everyone acted from a place of integrity, but it's also never going to happen. The fact is those with a drive for power seldom care much for personal integrity - hence the aphorism "Power corrupts".
Therefore, the only thing we can do is educate ourselves about our vulnerable credulity, and regard all accusations with a healthy dose of skepticism.

Well, I guess I'd have to say that her OP is relatively clear to me and that I agree with mostly all of what she is saying in this thread. That is what I mean. My guess is you're right in that people do it because it is effective but it seems like there might be more to it than that. It may not be so simple. They might do it because it makes them feel superior, out of spite, because they are projecting their own negative qualities on others, for a desire for vengeance or numerous other motives. They may be unthinking, ignorant or uncaring of the effects of their actions. They may do any of these things though there is no productive value for the accuser, accused, or others.

I also don't agree that those who have a drive for power seldom care for personal integrity. If you were to ask, say Al Capone (famous gangster boss in the 20s), if he thought he was a person of integrity, I'm sure he'd say that of course he was. The point is, I think people generally do want to have personal integrity, even those in power or seeking power.

Your point however is valid. While the idealist in me would like to think somehow people can or should change, we probably do have to accept human nature for what it is though and act accordingly.

Edit: And Metaphor, you're new avatar is scaring me.

 

[LEGERdeMAIN]

LEGERdeMAIN, I'm sure you're trying to help and I'm sure what you are saying makes perfect sense to you but I don't understand what you are saying - that is with regards to how to organize what you write. Is that a suggestion specific to what you see in TG's writing or is it how you recommend people organize their thoughts and get them down on paper in general? I'm not saying it's wrong or bad or anything of the sort. I just haven't ever seen anything like that.

Highlander, this response is not necessarily a direct response to your post. /clarification

I'm not known for my serious posts but either is TG. The difference is intention. I rarely intend on posting anything serious while TG seems to prefer writing serious posts. Unfortunately for the members of this forum, serious does not always mean comprehensible. I see some parallels between TG and Victor, although Victor seems to have a firm grasp on the English language and is capable of writing intelligible(read def., please) sentences when he wants to. TG, on the other hand, seems to struggle with elementary English and consistently delivers poor, grade-school quality sentences. TG and Victor come across as intelligible at times for completely different reasons. Answer in a paragraph or less: Why does Victor seem intelligible? Why does TG seem intelligible?

I recommended this to TG but others may find it useful. I don't remember the exercise word for word and it may not be the same as its original form. The search results from Google.com and Altavista.com indicate that no shortage of organizational methods exists, many of which are similar. I was simply offering an alternative to her current methods, modifying it to encourage her to separate beliefs from ideas.

My issues with TG's writing(whether on vent or the forum) are: 1) lack of coherence, 2) improper use/understanding of polysyllabic words, 3) her arrogant demeanor, petulance, impatience, etc, etc

I think she could easily fix problem #1 by organizing her thoughts, relegating her concepts* to an ancillary position behind her beliefs, presenting her thoughts in a logical manner(<----basically def. of coherence)

Problem #2 seems like laziness. Problem #3 may be rooted in her insecurity, her need for approval, other underlying mental disturbances. (only a guess based entirely on experience)


Once example I'll share is the OP's sentence:

"accusation creates the false dynamic, and this leads to irrelevant consequences"

Problem #4: TG often produces sentences which are so discordant and vague that they appear to lack substance.

I would like to know how I'm supposed to interpret this sentence, TG. Could you put this another way or explain? How does accusation create a "false" dynamic? What definition of dynamic is being used here? How can a dynamic be false? what consequences are "irrelevant"?

accusation-> false dynamic-> irrelevant consequences?

The advice I gave in my first post was an attempt to avoid picking apart her "stream-of-consciousness/free write" OP. I hope TG will be comfortable explaining the quoted text but she seems to take criticism personally, so I'm only expecting a dismissive reply(like her previous three posts).

*con·cept   –noun
1.a general notion or idea; conception.
2.an idea of something formed by mentally combining all its characteristics or particulars; a construct.
3.a directly conceived or intuited object of thought.
–verb (used with object)
4.
Informal . to develop a concept of; conceive: Experts pooled their talents to concept the new car.

 

[highlander]

"accusation creates the false dynamic, and this leads to irrelevant consequences"

The accusation creates a false perception which leads to consequences that impact people. Those consequences have little to do with the actual truth of what has occurred (i.e., the accusation is false or distorted). The resulting unfair perceptions created by the accusation are a distortion of reality. So, the consequences are not in alignment with the truth of what has occurred - thus are irrelevant. That's how I read it anyway.

I really do wonder if some of this is type related. Are you a Ti dom or something?

 

[strawberries]

My issues with TG's writing(whether on vent or the forum) are: 1) lack of coherence, 2) improper use/understanding of polysyllabic words, 3) her arrogant demeanor, petulance, impatience, etc, etc

I think she could easily fix problem #1 by organizing her thoughts, relegating her concepts* to an ancillary position behind her beliefs, presenting her thoughts in a logical manner(<----basically def. of coherence)

Problem #2 seems like laziness. Problem #3 may be rooted in her insecurity, her need for approval, other underlying mental disturbances. (only a guess based entirely on experience)

legerdemain, it strikes me as incredibly gauche to discuss another forum member's contributions in such a way. you sound like a school teacher bitching about a cheeky student in the tea room.

TG is allowed to express herself as she chooses here as long as she stays within the forum rules. she doesn't owe you a thing and it is not your role to moderate/coach her. if you genuinely want to reach out to TG - send her a PM. if you have already tried communicating with her privately regarding your point of view and she has declined to listen/heed your advice you have the option of putting her on ignore.

 

[LEGERdeMAIN]

legerdemain, it strikes me as incredibly gauche to discuss another forum member's contributions in such a way. you sound like a school teacher bitching about a cheeky student in the tea room.

TG is allowed to express herself as she chooses here as long as she stays within the forum rules. she doesn't owe you a thing and it is not your role to moderate/coach her. if you genuinely want to reach out to TG - send her a PM. if you have already tried communicating with her privately regarding your point of view and she has declined to listen/heed your advice you have the option of putting her on ignore.

Yes, she is allowed to and is welcome to post as she pleases. It disturbs me that she gets upset when not taken seriously but won't put forth the minimal effort required to remedy that problem. Actually, TG wrote a post earlier that I could understand. It would be gauche of me not to credit her for that. Thank you for your valuable advice.

 

[Totenkindly]

I have been thinking about this a lot lately.
There is one thing I HATE, and that is when people accuse you of something without trying to figure out the answer to completion first.

Yeah, that bends me out of shape to no end.

I feel like if they just actually looked at all the facts, as well as noted the ambiguous areas, they would not be so quick to jump on things and point fingers or suggest I'm morally deficient.

It comes from an idea, wanting to bring something to light, but is rarely back by factual evidence. This is why the accusation happens, and not the counter measure.

If you knew something for a fact, you wouldn't need to convince others through lengthy campaigns, it would be self evident in fact.

True. If there was teeth to the accusation, others should be able to see it as well... well, if they can see clearly.

But there is a power behind the sheer effort to accuse.
For one it tarnishes a preexisting stature.

I find it very simple for people to react against something constructed by another than to create something positive and substantial themselves. In a way, they are leeching off another's efforts -- their own act of creation is an act of destruction against another's creation. It gets old, but it leaves them feeling as if they have power.

Two it instantly puts you in the offensive position asking others to comply to your ideas. Both of which do not sit well with an 8.

Not really asking.
Insisting.

Even if the accusation is false, it only serves to create doubt unless extinguished completely, and since they are most often based on subjective interpretations, this is not so easy the case.

Yup. They stir up crap to muddy another's reputation and integrity; they make people nervous and distrust, even where there was nothing to distrust.

For as much as someone can prove one perspective in theory, the opposite is also true...depending on how you look at it.

So accusation creates the false dynamic, and this leads to irrelevant consequences. This is where peoples minds get muddied by the lack of truth, and that leads to an entire world of confusion.

If this did not exist, or people took more responsibility for the things they create, a lot more people would find peace, and express themselves more openly and without fear.

It is a shame.

I agree.

Yes, she is allowed to and is welcome to post as she pleases. It disturbs me that she gets upset when not taken seriously but won't put forth the minimal effort required to remedy that problem. Actually, TG wrote a post earlier that I could understand. It would be gauche of me not to credit her for that. Thank you for your valuable advice.

I didn't find it that difficult... and you're just doing exactly what she's bitching about -- your entire commentary in this thread is a persistent act of destruction against her act of creation. Why? She didn't ask for it. And apparently a number of us understood what she was saying despite her perhaps not stating it as clearly as you think it could have been stated; this is coming off as a personal issue between you and her, rather than some objective analysis and offer of help... as well as a huge derail.

I suppose you can bitch about what you perceive as her unwillingness to write more carefully and yet complain about not being understood, which seems two-sided on her part. I typically just end up ignoring people who want to be stuck in their own rut without taking charge of their own success. It balances itself out in the end.

 

[LEGERdeMAIN]

Intelligible is such an attractive word

I didn't find it that difficult... and you're just doing exactly what she's bitching about -- your entire commentary in this thread is a persistent act of destruction against her act of creation. Why? She didn't ask for it. And apparently a number of us understood what she was saying despite her perhaps not stating it as clearly as you think it could have been stated; this is coming off as a personal issue between you and her, rather than some objective analysis and offer of help... as well as a huge derail.

I suppose you can bitch about what you perceive as her unwillingness to write more carefully and yet complain about not being understood, which seems two-sided on her part. I typically just end up ignoring people who want to be stuck in their own rut without taking charge of their own success. It balances itself out in the end.

I admit it was insensitive to post occasionally-asked for, yet reasonable advice, in such a new thread(or any thread, perhaps). It may even be disrespectful and it was only somewhat on-topic. I would do well to follow TG's lead and leave that sort of thing in vent.

Thanks for your objective, reasonable response.

Once someone makes an accusation whether true or false, it automatically associates someone with the issue. Even if it wasn't there to begin with.

This is true. An arrest or bad publicity from an investigation can seem worse than an actual conviction. The difference is the accused can legally repair most of the damage done by a false accusation whereas the convicted cannot. The consequences of a false accusation certainly change the dynamics of many groups the accused is part of.

Unfortunately for the falsely accused, there is often no way to effectively fight charges due to the poor quality of state-appointed attorneys and lack of resources allocated to legal services for the poor. Often times, unless charges are dropped, falsely accused persons are forced to accept plea bargains or simply plead guilty in order to receive lighter sentences. Very discouraging.