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European-Americans' interest in (obsession with?) their ancestry

Adasta

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[Y]ou seem unwilling to look at things from our point of view.

No, I can understand the point of view. It's the conflation of "present identity" and "ancestral identity" which is curious.
 

Fidelia

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But Adasta, I thought you were arguing that wherever you grew up is what you are. Do you have to remain there all of your lives? What about a few short term stretches away? Where do you draw that line?
 

Aquarelle

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No, I can understand the point of view. It's the conflation of "present identity" and "ancestral identity" which is curious.

Hmmm, I guess that makes sense... I would say that ancestral identity forms a PART of present identity. If that helps.
 

Adasta

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But Adasta, I thought you were arguing that wherever you grew up is what you are. Do you have to remain there all of your lives? What about a few short term stretches away? Where do you draw that line?

Well, I didn't always live in England, but I did always live with English people and I ultimately returned to England. This is a fundamental difference with regards to colonised nations where the express intention is for people to remain there. That process/sentiment of belonging to "there" and not "here" is what is crucial, I think.
 
S

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I suppose, from an English point of view, prior to 1776 was a colonial uprising. Post-1776 was trickier and, in hindsight, it's obvious to say it was an American vs. England war. Had things turned out differently, I doubt America declaration of independence would've been given much credence.
Of course England is going to view the war differently, even possibly call it a different name. This happens quite frequently. In Russia, WWII is referred to as "the Great Patriotic War". We even have the issue of the proper name for our civil war: Northerners often refer to it as "the Civil War" while the South tends to prefer "the War between the states" or "the war of northern aggression".

I'm just being pedantic!
Yes I know you are.


He spent his childhood in England.
He also spent quite a bit of it in France too, and even served in the French Army. It was only after his tour of duty in the French Army he decided he was English, yet he still maintained his French citizenship untill he was around 40. During his campaign for MP people would sometimes heckle him as a Frenchman, and his opponent even adopted the slogan "Don't vote for a Frenchman and a Catholic."
 

Adasta

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He also spent quite a bit of it in France too, and even served in the French Army. It was only after his tour of duty in the French Army he decided he was English, yet he still maintained his French citizenship untill he was around 40. During his campaign for MP people would sometimes heckle him as a Frenchman, and his opponent even adopted the slogan "Don't vote for a Frenchman and a Catholic."

Fallacy of Misleading Vividness. This doesn't relate to my original point.
 

onemoretime

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I think, too, that it is a way of having a sense of history in a very young country, especially where one doesn't have family friends that span generations.
 

Southern Kross

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That makes no sense to me. And it's not an impression I picked up at all when I was there, but then, I suppose I wasn't looking for it. How can you have an inferiority complex when you live in the most beautiful place on the planet?
NZ neuroticism is well concealed by a laid-back, easy-going manner. Its rather complicated so I will spare you too much detail. Basically a sense of national inferiority is something that has been a part of the nation for decades, perhaps even over a century; it was practically drilled into school children up until the Baby Boomer generation and now remains as an cultural undercurrent.

And its not that we don't think we're great, we just need everyone else to confirm it before we can entirely believe it; we will literally fish for compliments like an insecure child. It rather pathetic really.

They may celebrate things that the Scottish may consider schlocky or now longer done like Robbie Burns Day or having a yearly highland games. And yes, many people might own a kilt and feel proud to wear it on particular occasions, which by Scottish people who don't do that seems like it's pathetically trying too hard to reconnect. Should they not consider themselves Scottish simply because they have been away for several generations or because their origins were more humble than some modern day Scottish peoples'?
Apparently there are more bag pipe bands in New Zealand than there are in Scotland :D . But I don't think its an attempt to be Scottish though. We have simply retained aspects of the culture that have endured as a part of NZ culture in general.

Actually the thing that surprises me the most in this thread is the fact that for the most part, the tendency to identify with the country of one's ancestors doesn't seem to be as wide-spread in Australia and New Zealand as it is in the US and Canada. Given that they are all settler nations (maybe not NZ quite as much...), I sort of expected that it would be the same down under. Very interesting to note that I seem to have been wrong about that. I wonder why that is.
In NZ's case, the settlers were successfully brainwashed into becoming loyal and adoring Englishmen, regardless of which nation they originally came from; it was a cultural homogenisation of sorts. It was a rather amazing feat considering so many (such as the Scots and the Irish) have traditionally despised the English. Of course some elements of the cultures were retained (predominantly Scottish culture because so many emigrated to NZ) but they were watered down and kept secondary to the dominant English culture - and even the Englishness is so vague and non-specific. We certainly have nothing to parallel the American cultural ties.
 

SilkRoad

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Entering this discussion very late - and I'm Canadian, not American - but I'm guessing that some Americans get very precious about the "I'm Irish" sort of thing and that would annoy a lot of Europeans. ESPECIALLY if the person who is identifying themselves as Irish, or whatever, has a real lack of knowledge about the country they claim to identify with - I can easily imagine that happening.

Irish is probably a particularly fraught area. Obviously there are a lot of Irish-Americans but for quite a long time (and probably still somewhat) if you were really keen on identifying yourself as Irish in the US it may have had something to do with the IRA or whatever. They did get a lot of support from America. That whole political area is very fraught and it's still not over, from the sounds of things.

I grew up in Canada, have lived in Ireland and now live in England. My mother is Finnish (and we used to spend summers there when I was a kid) and my father is Canadian of English-Irish extraction, mainly. I have always considered myself Canadian. I grew up there, lived there till I was 23 and identify more with Canada than any other country. I do tell people "I'm half Finnish" or "a lot of my ancestors came from England" or whatever. But I would never call myself "Finnish" or "English". And DEFINITELY not Irish ;) The thing about my Irish connection is, it's largely Anglo-Irish...some of my Yorkshire ancestors emigrated there, my grandfather was born in Dublin and educated in England and eventually moved to Canada. I never knew him, sadly. He would definitely have been considered Anglo-Irish but apparently he eventually considered himself Canadian.

I will admit to having some romantic ideas about ancestry, though I wouldn't share them with everyone. I guess they are sort of Jungian and mainly artistic/aesthetic/emotional more than anything. Basically, I think it is possible to feel strong and unusual and otherwise inexplicable connections with a country that your ancestors come from. After living in Ireland for three years, as much as I like the Irish and have/had some good Irish friends, I felt that I was anything but "Irish". I just don't think the national character/temperament reflects mine hardly at all. In fact, I feel like I have very mixed "Anglo-Irish" feelings about the place! On the other hand, I feel a very strong connection to England and think I may end up staying here long-term (though the thing is, I live in London, and it's London more than anywhere else I feel that connection to - and London is not England!). A lot of my ancestors are definitely from here. I don't know, maybe it's just romanticism. I still love Finland but since my grandmother died more than fifteen years ago I've only been once. I do feel a connection, of course, but it's more of a childhood connection. I never learned the language properly. And while my mom is far more Finnish than Canadian (she does not consider herself Canadian at all though she's now lived there the majority of her life), I don't think she identifies all that strongly with Finland either. She's kind of her own nationality. ;)
 

Aquarelle

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In NZ's case, the settlers were successfully brainwashed into becoming loyal and adoring Englishmen, regardless of which nation they originally came from; it was a cultural homogenisation of sorts. It was a rather amazing feat considering so many (such as the Scots and the Irish) have traditionally despised the English. Of course some elements of the cultures were retained (predominantly Scottish culture because so many emigrated to NZ) but they were watered down and kept secondary to the dominant English culture - and even the Englishness is so vague and non-specific. We certainly have nothing to parallel the American cultural ties.

Hmm, that's interesting - thanks for the insight!
 

Fan.of.Devin

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I'm 25% Quebec French and 25% Bohemian (Germanic-originating Czech Republic folks) on my father's side of the family, and my mother's side is so WASPy and convoluted that it's difficult to track... But probably some English, Scottish, Dutch... I do know I have a Native American great grandmother on that side.

I don't feel particularly much affinity to the culture of my ancestors, whatever that may be, and honestly, I wouldn't really care if I didn't know anything at all about my ethnic/national origins.
But hey, thanks for the healthy and diverse gene pool, and for settling in a relatively nice place!
 

rhinosaur

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I watched an episode of House Hunters International the other day about an Italian-American who wanted to "get back to her roots" by buying a vacation home in Italy. She was taking Italian language classes. She said, to paraphrase, "I just feel so connected to the culture."
 

SilkRoad

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I watched an episode of House Hunters International the other day about an Italian-American who wanted to "get back to her roots" by buying a vacation home in Italy. She was taking Italian language classes. She said, to paraphrase, "I just feel so connected to the culture."

Did it seem somehow authentic, or did she seem like a flake?
 

Laurie

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Oftentimes (at least in this area) Italians marry other Italians so ethnically she could be full blooded Italian. Which obviously she would lose just by living outside of Italy. ;)
 

entropie

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Only lewdy people in Italy ! You always come there innocently as a german :D

kaenguru-beim-sex-gefuettert.jpg
 

OrangeAppled

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I suppose if all you know about advertising is "TV & Hollywood", then sure.

The point is, advertising is not a true reflection of a culture or its people. I can't see the relevance of this to the discussion anyway.

You speak about condescension; I'm not merely a passive observer of America. I have in fact been there, several times as well as knowing many Americans.

Well, doesn't that make you the expert, haha. You are talking to actual Americans born & raised here, surrounded by other Americans. Don't tell me you know more about our culture than we do. You really don't see the hypocrisy in that, considering the topic at hand & your stand on it?


Again, you're conflating two things. Recognising one's ancestry is one thing but explicitly aligning oneself with it is entirely another.

No, hon, you're conflating two things. You seem to think that when an American states they are "Irish" in response to a question that concerns their ethnic heritage, they are denying their American nationality and/or trying to "steal" the identity of a nation they do not belong to. I think its been explained that by far, the average American will identify their nationality as American in a foreign country, when asked where they are from they'll name the city/state/USA, but in response to questions which clearly are seeking their ethnic heritage, they may say "I'm Irish" or whatever. The two are not conflated, but neither are they mutually exclusive. You can be both an American and recognize your heritage connected to other countries.

As mentioned, in some cases, there IS a direct influence from a culture on a region in the US, so there has been a fusion of sorts, and to NOT recognize that seems to be a sort of denial. People from the east coast are markedly different from people in the southwest (amongst Americans), and I DO see a connection to the countries which colonized and dominated the areas. No doubt, they are still "American", but the nuances are significant enough to note at times & the origins of those differences seem rooted in the heritages of the people. What is so hard about that to grasp?

I don't see how you can't the positives in this. The less clear the divisions between people based on nationality & ethnicity, the better, IMO. People start to relate to larger chunks of the world instead of having an "us vs. them" attitude.

Only because you've inferred something different to what I had originally said.

You're inferring something different to what Americans actually do, on the whole. Knowing a few individuals who are obnoxious about their heritage & viewing "Jersey Shore" as some kind of standard is not any accurate picture of the average American & how they view their heritage. What I've described is much more accurate for the common American: a curiosity into one's personal past & enthusiasm for differences in cultures, not a usurping of another countries cultural identity in a denial of one's own.

I'd be intrigued by an explication of your analysis.

No, you explain to me why you're so eager to criticize cultural quirks of Americans. I am just as puzzled, and insecurity seems the obvious answer. Or do you approach all different cultures the same way? Such an attitude is considered rather bigoted here, to be that negative towards something & closed to understanding it just because it is "different" from your own culture. Although, that attitude seems to come from feeling threatened in some way, hence the idea of an "insecurity".

Okay, if I were to take a stab at it, maybe it gives you a sense of superiority to view Americans as culture-less baboons who are so absorbed in being American they know & care little about the rest of the world. So when a different picture emerges, one of an American who is so fascinated by their cultural heritage that they venture to look into it & mention it from time to time, and it disturbs your previous idea, you quickly need to turn it into something disdainful to reconcile the two & feel superior again. You latch onto the few extreme examples who make your case & once again feel at ease in your ivory tower. You tell me why you need to feel superior though.
 
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