Most people think they're above average

[Thalassa]

Yeah, when thinking about society, yes, it is harmful to have these people thinking so highly of themselves. But I said that I think it serves these people well. When you look at it from their perspective, there is nothing that would make them as successful as they are if they didn't have the narcism. So, I wasn't actually saying anything about the desirability of this phenomenon on the societys scale in my original post.

Personally, the fact that there are so many people overestimating their talent makes my success less likely, since I rarely use so big words, nor appear overconfident. But, that's just the way it is... I've given up on changing the world. If the people hiring these people want to take them in instead of the less confident but more talented person, then that is the way it works. Maybe the confident person will do all right in the position... probably not the best for the job, though...

But no, I don't think that it's good to have a culture of narcism like that. The people appearing most confident will get all the top positions, and there is a funny thing about confidence, that it is always about deceiving yourself, since who can assess their talent properly? And I happen to believe that the more you are able to deceive yourself, the more sick you are in other ways too. So, we are giving the top positions to sick people. What the hell do we think will come out of it?

Also, you tend to treat other people like shit when you're like that.

I hate that...people who are rude to waitresses, etc.

 

[wildcat]

Also, you tend to treat other people like shit when you're like that.

I hate that...people who are rude to waitresses, etc.

Narcissism breeds new money in Central Asia, Middle East and obscure places.
Nolla is Finnish.. the word for zero.
I have met very rude waitors and waitresses in Finland and Austria. A kind of backfiring, perhaps?
Maybe they are rude because the clients tend to be rude in the first place.
It is easy to kick the staff around with new money.

 

[Ginkgo]

If no one knows the average, then would you expect any different?

When people estimate themselves, they tend to look for either good or bad things in their mental file-cabinets, depending on whether they're trying to determine whether they're above or below. It then becomes difficult to balance the estimation realistically.

The people who overestimate themselves may often be coping, but only marginally.

 

[Ginkgo]

If you have to ask, you'll never know.

- from Rugrats.

I lol'd.

 

[Ginkgo]

So if I was Christian or something else it wouldn't be okay for me to be neurotic?

No, it's a cardinal sin, just like eating rum cake.

 

[Haphazard]

Also, you tend to treat other people like shit when you're like that.

I hate that...people who are rude to waitresses, etc.

And yet Americans tend to leave the most generous tips...

*shrug*

 

[guesswho]

I think this is proof that most people tend to lose their objectivity when they look at themselves, it's interesting how some are so skilled in seeing flaws in others, but their sense of perception gets deflected when it's oriented to themselves. By devaluating one might get the feeling that he is above others, above average or whatever.
Also I don't know if a high self awareness is actually a healthy thing...knowing a lot of stuff that goes on in your head, or being very aware how you behave.

I have no idea....

 

[nolla]

Narcissism breeds new money in Central Asia, Middle East and obscure places.
Nolla is Finnish.. the word for zero.
I have met very rude waitors and waitresses in Finland and Austria. A kind of backfiring, perhaps?
Maybe they are rude because the clients tend to be rude in the first place.
It is easy to kick the staff around with new money.

I don't know if new money is what the world is missing. But, even if it is, I think it is very likely that if you hire people by their capacity, not confidence, you will get better results in making money too. The rude waitress thing, I guess it is because the job is not respected. It is something you are supposed to do for a few years and then move on to your real career. If it was a career, they would take it more seriously.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean with my name meaning "zero"... The name is so old for me, it is from the time I first used the net, it doesn't particularly mean anything to me anymore. It's just that the word has stuck and has some sort of sentimental value for me, I can't imagine myself using any different name. And in the beginning it was used with slight irony, so, I don't think you can distill a lot of meaning from it...

 

[Salomé]

I was listening to the audiobook "The Invisible Gorilla and Other Ways Our Intuitions Deceive Us" and there was a chapter about how people tend to overestimate their abilities.

About 2/3rds thought of themselves as above average in intelligence.

The majority thought of themselves as more attractive and having a better sense of humor than average.

There was even a study of chess players, and the vast majority thought their chess rating underestimated their true ability by about 100 points.

So these examples suggest that we like to think of ourselves as above average, yet by definition, half the people are below average!

There were people who underestimated their abilities as well, but they were definitely in minority. (only about 4% of chess players in the study).

AKA Illusory Superiority - a pretty well-documented phenomenon. Most people do overestimate their abilities. No need to get bogged down in statistics, means, medians and whatnot, it's the overestimation that's the key point.

So I'm wondering if there is a type who is less likely to fall into this trap of not being able to accurately assess one's true abilities?

Yes. The clinically depressed. Their self-perceptions are more balanced, they assign responsibility for success and failure more even-handedly, and their predictions for the future are more realistic. (Taylor & Brown, 1988 ‘Illusion and well-being: a social psychological perspective on mental health’, Psychology Bulletin). See also: Depressive Realism.

There is some evidence that P types (or those who tend not to come to decisions quickly) are also more in touch with reality. (Gollwitzer & Kinner, 1989, ‘Effects of deliberative and implemental mind-sets on illusion of control’, Journal of Personality and Social Psychology)

The fact that realism and depression are linked, points to the benefits of these positive delusions that all non-depressed individuals have to a greater or lesser extent. This is something that depressed people have long suspected - that it's actually everyone else that's crazy. But it turns out that being crazy can keep you sane.
According to Terror Management Theorist Tom Pyszczynski (you'd have to be a psychologist with that name), such delusions provide a "protective shield designed to control the potential for terror that results from awareness of the horrifying possibility that we humans are merely transient animals groping to survive in a meaningless universe, destined only to die and decay."
So that's nice.

Keep in mind, that if 2/3 (~66%) rank themselves higher than average (50%) than a majority of those who think they are above average are accurate in their assessment, minus the smaller population of under-estimators. The group that is of concern is that 16% who are overestimating themselves. Most people, 84% (minus the under-estimators) in this example, do just fine with their self-categorization.

So while your title, "Most people think they are above average" is correct, it's misleading to say that most people have a problem with estimating if they are above or below average.

The real headline is "Small but sizable group of jack-wagons need to get over themselves already."

You over-estimate your facility with statistics.

I've always seen myself as humble sort of person who doesn't let confidence go to my head.

People always think that others are more susceptible to self-serving bias than they are themselves....

 

[Magic Poriferan]

AKA Illusory Superiority - a pretty well-documented phenomenon. Most people do overestimate their abilities. No need to get bogged down in statistics, means, medians and whatnot, it's the overestimation that's the key point.
Yes. The clinically depressed. Their self-perceptions are more balanced, they assign responsibility for success and failure more even-handedly, and their predictions for the future are more realistic. (Taylor & Brown, 1988 ‘Illusion and well-being: a social psychological perspective on mental health’, Psychology Bulletin). See also: Depressive Realism.

We should be careful with the depressive realism thing, though. Depressions certainly does bring about unrealistically and irrationally negative assessments, too.

People always think that others are more susceptible to self-serving bias than they are themselves....

I have laughed many times now at someone or another evokes the Dunning–Kruger effect and puffs that they always knew those other idiots were over-estimating themselves, without one knowing glance of introspection. The Dunning-Kruger effect should add a dose of neurotic insecurity if you fully understand it.

Sadly, some people must be more humble than others, but all this research shows that actually assessing such a thing is very complicated.

 

[erm]

yet by definition, half the people are below average!

I'm sure many have pointed it out already, but:

The vast majority of humans have an above average number of legs.

Median, mode, mean, blah blah.

Intelligence is such a vague, undefined word, that people often cherry pick whichever definition they happen to prefer. That form is usually the one they are most skilled at. Not necessarily having a large impact on the stats, but it plays its part.

 

[nolla]

Yes. The clinically depressed. Their self-perceptions are more balanced, they assign responsibility for success and failure more even-handedly, and their predictions for the future are more realistic. (Taylor & Brown, 1988 ‘Illusion and well-being: a social psychological perspective on mental health’, Psychology Bulletin). See also: Depressive Realism.

There is some evidence that P types (or those who tend not to come to decisions quickly) are also more in touch with reality. (Gollwitzer & Kinner, 1989, ‘Effects of deliberative and implemental mind-sets on illusion of control’, Journal of Personality and Social Psychology)

The fact that realism and depression are linked, points to the benefits of these positive delusions that all non-depressed individuals have to a greater or lesser extent. This is something that depressed people have long suspected - that it's actually everyone else that's crazy. But it turns out that being crazy can keep you sane.
According to Terror Management Theorist Tom Pyszczynski (you'd have to be a psychologist with that name), such delusions provide a "protective shield designed to control the potential for terror that results from awareness of the horrifying possibility that we humans are merely transient animals groping to survive in a meaningless universe, destined only to die and decay."
So that's nice.

Hey, thanks, Salome, interesting info.

I would add, though, that this "horrifying fact that we are animals and will die after a meaningless life" is not a neutral statement at all. It is highly negative view of the facts. You can think of the same facts that it is incredible that we get to live a life of an animal, and if life was not meaningless, it would not be free, and if we wouldn't be subject to decay, nothing would ever change at all, so it is about the same as if time didn't exist. So, I say that you don't need any shield against the statement because the statement is relative.

Of course, there are people who do shield them against those facts even if they could just reinterpret the facts, but I am kinda looking for a view here that doesn't deny the world as it is, but is not depressed or delusional either. I don't know if I'm making much sense, but I'm sure there is a way...

 

[Salomé]

We should be careful with the depressive realism thing, though. Depressions certainly does bring about unrealistically and irrationally negative assessments, too.

Quite so. It can veer towards psychosis in extreme cases.
I think the main thing to take away from this research is that positive delusions are not a bad thing. They might even be necessary. Optimism is pretty irrational - after all, we have no sound reason to believe the sun will rise tomorrow, but we have to behave as if we did. And those of us who do (live life as cheery optimists), live around 10 yrs longer than those of us who don't. Self-fulfilling prophecy in action.

I have laughed many times now at someone or another evokes the Dunning–Kruger effect and puffs that they always knew those other idiots were over-estimating themselves, without one knowing glance of introspection. The Dunning-Kruger effect should add a dose of neurotic insecurity if you fully understand it.

Kinda scary, eh? I swear social psychologists are some of the worst sadists. Then again, if you fully understand it, you're probably only marginally overestimating your own intelligence (instead of grossly). Always plenty of reasons to feel smug.

I would add, though, that this "horrifying fact that we are animals and will die after a meaningless life" is not a neutral statement at all. It is highly negative view of the facts.

I think it was supposed to be tongue-in-cheek - at least, that's how I read it.

Of course, there are people who do shield them against those facts even if they could just reinterpret the facts, but I am kinda looking for a view here that doesn't deny the world as it is, but is not depressed or delusional either. I don't know if I'm making much sense, but I'm sure there is a way...

You are a hopeless optimist!

 

[nolla]

I think it was supposed to be tongue-in-cheek - at least, that's how I read it.

I didn't know psychologists do tongue-in-cheek...

You are a hopeless optimist!

Thanks

...i guess...

 

[Lily flower]

Well, I believe that everyone is superior in one way or another. Some people are better looking, others are more intelligent, others are better at being kind and thoughtful. So do we all believe we are better than others at everything, or do we only believe that in the areas that we truly are better?

 

[entropie]

There's a quote I remember I try to translate:

"Before you try to be better than me, try first to be like me."

That sums it up pretty well for me.