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Morler's Levels of Emotional Maturity

machintruc

New member
Joined
Jan 31, 2008
Messages
51
MBTI Type
ENTJ
I think this is proposterous. The entire system is flawed. It asserts that "mature" people only feel happiness. It also asserts that they are extroverted and want to be leaders. I fit a lot of the 3 description because I am an observer and I'm not highly emotional. As far as self-confidence and self-actualization goes, I'm quite high. It just doesn't show externally. Judging by your self-identification as an ENTJ, I can see why this system appeals to you. However, I think you are looking at it with a very narrow view.

Also, the level one decription is nothing like the typical INTP. INTP fits well into the 3 level, being an observer, highly logical, disinclined to socialize, and relatively emotionally unaffective.

You missed the point. These are stereotypes.

Don't see any correlations between levels and types.
 

Urchin

New member
Joined
Sep 12, 2007
Messages
139
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w6
What I'm trying to say is that I will never appear to be a 5 or a 6 because of my introversion. This system does not account for differing personalities.
 

Urchin

New member
Joined
Sep 12, 2007
Messages
139
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w6
There is nothing in the levels 5 and 6 that excludes introverts.

It asserts that they have "great presence" and empathize with others. It asserts that they are leaders.

I don't want to be a leader. Many INTPs don't. I'm also not happy and positive all the time. Does that make me immature? Real people don't range from "content" to "joyous." This does not make them immature. It's a matter of how one deals with things.

This system robs people of their complexity and asserts that everyone matures in the same way. This is untrue.
 

disregard

mrs
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
7,826
MBTI Type
INFP
It asserts that they have "great presence"
Comfortable presence.
and empathize with others.
Conscientious, not necessarily empathetic.
I don't want to be a leader. Many INTPs don't.
It has been speculated that Morler's definition of leader is not limited to leading others.
I'm also not happy and positive all the time. Does that make me immature? Real people don't range from "content" to "joyous." This does not make them immature. It's a matter of how one deals with things.
No one is happy all the time, but I think this refers to one's general disposition or outlook upon life. Ajoie de vivre.
 

machintruc

New member
Joined
Jan 31, 2008
Messages
51
MBTI Type
ENTJ
I will never appear to be a 5 or a 6 because of my introversion.

The first thing you have to do if you want to go some levels up, is to avoid this way of thinking.

Never think "I can't (put something here) because I'm (put something here)".

Emotional Immaturity means "cognitive limiting of oneself"
 

redacted

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 28, 2007
Messages
4,223
i think i'm level five with the emotional stability of level six. bad bad days i'm level four, but still with level six emotional stability.

weird system though.
 

millerm277

New member
Joined
Feb 1, 2008
Messages
978
MBTI Type
ISTP
Strange system, I seem to be some sort of combination of levels 2, 4 and 5. None of them really fit well. (Then again, I am sort of odd..)
 

Athenian200

Protocol Droid
Joined
Jul 1, 2007
Messages
8,828
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
4w5
It asserts that they have "great presence" and empathize with others. It asserts that they are leaders.

I don't want to be a leader. Many INTPs don't. I'm also not happy and positive all the time. Does that make me immature? Real people don't range from "content" to "joyous." This does not make them immature. It's a matter of how one deals with things.

This system robs people of their complexity and asserts that everyone matures in the same way. This is untrue.

I'm inclined to agree. I think it's a bit arrogant to claim that people at the higher levels are "better" than the people at the lower levels just because of the productiveness of their behavior. Not everyone considers productiveness to be the most important quality, and this chart seems to do so.

The qualities they did actually describe sounds more like an ENTJ's vilification of the motives/behaviors of some other types than descriptions of what these people really are. Maybe some of them have those negative behaviors, but I think the person is too loosely attributing those particular qualities to otherwise valid behaviors, because they could be interpreted that way at times even when they're not really.
 

machintruc

New member
Joined
Jan 31, 2008
Messages
51
MBTI Type
ENTJ
i think i'm level five with the emotional stability of level six. bad bad days i'm level four, but still with level six emotional stability.

weird system though.

This is because you're E1. 'Tough-minded' types (i.e. Ones, Threes, and Fives) are naturally emotionally stable. Whereas 468's are 'moody', and 279's are 'enthusiastic'.
 

Ghost of the dead horse

filling some space
Joined
Sep 7, 2007
Messages
3,553
MBTI Type
ENTJ
Best thread in a week. I've got the con man attribute of 2 (seeking a job, hey? ;) ), contentment of 4, openness of 5 and adventureousness of 6, to say a few. More of a mixed bag between 4-6, mostly identifying with 4.

As for this ENTP's perspective, the 5 was inspiring, as well as 6. They actually works as some kind of a goal for me. I think I've been overly content and comfortable with what I've had.

Still, the chart is biased against contemplatative types, as it doesn't seem to portray analytical abilities, objectivity, sense of realism and abilities deduction in any positive light. Or then, you could say the opposite: tho these traits may make a person to argue (level 2), but they also strongly contribute to their Big Picture Skills (level 6).
 

Grayscale

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 20, 2007
Messages
1,965
MBTI Type
ISTP
im about a 1... this system is so unfair, why should i get a lower number than everyone else? i want a higher number... i DESERVE a higher number, give it to me.
 

ygolo

My termites win
Joined
Aug 6, 2007
Messages
5,988
Never think "I can't (put something here) because I'm (put something here)".

"I can't (think negatively) because I'm (emotionally mature)".

This is illustative of the counter-point we are making: There a great many merits for thinking negatively, and knowing one's own limits is a sign of maturity as well.
 

machintruc

New member
Joined
Jan 31, 2008
Messages
51
MBTI Type
ENTJ
"I can't (think negatively) because I'm (emotionally mature)".

This is illustative of the counter-point we are making: There a great many merits for thinking negatively, and knowing one's own limits is a sign of maturity as well.

Negative thinking may be healthy. Positive thinking is good, but when excessive, it's either legalistic or superficially positive (i.e. hiding major drawbacks).

Negative thinking is not necessarily self-pitying or such, and may be like focusing on problems and drawbacks to compensate or solve them.

For example, go here : Online Dating Service - Singles, Personals and Relationships, Match.com

"Make love happen" : really ? if you think so, you're just a naïve loser, or you may be a total dumb retard

"We guarantee you'll find someone within 6 months or we'll give you 6 months free." : but if it doesn't work within 6 months, would it necessarily work within 12 ?

But another "harder" example : easyAdJob.com - Make Money From Home!

Well I don't think explainations are any useful here.
 

substitute

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May 27, 2007
Messages
4,601
MBTI Type
ENTP
I never go by what I say of myself with these things because obviously, I'm biased. I always ask other people who know me well, selecting the ones who I know will be frank and honest rather than flattering.

My people here are saying that on average I'm level 5, I sometimes go down to level 4 (and have been there recently), but I also flirt with level 6 on a regular basis.

I'd add to that, that up to the age of about 25 I was probably mostly in level 3, with brief excursions into 4 but never as low as 2.
 

GZA

Resident Snot-Nose
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
1,771
MBTI Type
infp
I suppose I'm probably a four... but Substitute's points are very good, its hard to measure yourself.
 

ygolo

My termites win
Joined
Aug 6, 2007
Messages
5,988
As with a lot of these things. People are a lot more complex.

Even Morler's own theory says that 2's often try to act like 5's and 6's as defense. If the act is good enough, who's to say that those perceived as 5 or 6 are not actually 2's with good rationalization and/or self-rationalization skills?

It mixes-up/equates several things together that ought not be.

Would you actually equate positive impact with organizational contribution?

What if you worked for Enron, World Com, the Mob, or some terrorist organization?

Would you actually equate leadership with level of happiness?

Most famously, Lincoln struggled with depression. But, potentially many other U.S. presidents did as well.

Emotional maturity, productivity, leadership, and positive affectivity are different things. There may be correlations, but proscribing how to develop emotional maturity based on a theory that puts them together on the same ladder is preposterous.

Even if we were to grant that Morler did his studies to the best scientific standards. This use of this ladder as a guide for personal development is the logical fallacy of accident at its most harmful.

Let's place a few famous people on these levels to see if it is even worth considering for a particular person.


Lincoln
Gandhi
Einstein
Wittgenstein

If you were aiming to be a more emotionally mature version of yourself, would following Morler's hierarchy hurt you or help you?

Be honest.
 

Ghost of the dead horse

filling some space
Joined
Sep 7, 2007
Messages
3,553
MBTI Type
ENTJ
Well, as said, it was personally inspiring to me, and I would see no harm in being a 6, except that it seems a bit exhausting.

Morler's site focuses on leadership; perhaps that's what has influenced the selection of traits on this hierarchy. I'd agree that the level 6 would be great leader traits for most leaders, tho I'd bet my left arm that other types of leaders are needed, too.

I can't but to remember some descriptions on traits like FFM openness; great for scientist, bad for police officer. (that's what they say.)

Eysenck psychoticism; bad for an accountant, good for a song writer.

etc, etc. So no, this hierarchy isn't the greatest thing since sliced bread.
 

FDG

pathwise dependent
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
5,903
MBTI Type
ENTJ
Enneagram
7w8
Real people don't range from "content" to "joyous." This does not make them immature. It's a matter of how one deals with things.

Not to argue in favor of the above outlined system, but isn't a way of dealing with things that makes a person range from content to joyous generally better than a way of dealing with things that makes a person go from average to bad mood?

Btw most "leaders" I have known were level 2
 
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