• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

How do you tell if you're transgendered?

Haphazard

Don't Judge Me!
Joined
Apr 14, 2008
Messages
6,704
MBTI Type
ENFJ
Exactly what it says on the thread title. How do you know?
 

Atomic Fiend

New member
Joined
Nov 16, 2007
Messages
7,275
Interesting. I have a Transgendered friend IRL and there are plenty online... From what I've gathered from them they've had a nagging thought or feeling that their body wasn't theirs, or at least isn't supposed to be the way it is gender wise. To that I usually ask how they know that, did you stand up to pee one day only to ruin your carpet? This is usually where I hit the brick wall.
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
50,187
MBTI Type
BELF
Enneagram
594
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
To clarify up front, "transgender" is a blanket term that includes transsexuals, crossdressers, drag queens, gender queers, gender f*cks, andro's, and anyone else who deviates from the binary gendered system in terms of self identity or presentation.

So for many of those groups, you know you're transgendered if you do "transgendered stuff."

In the more specific subgroup of transsexuals, the criteria is a bit different / more complicated.

Usually there's a lot of distress in childhood at some point, where you realize you don't fit with who people said you were or that you identify with the "other" gender (as opposed to your biological gender).

Some transpeople will say they "knew" when they were three years old, but I can't tell if that's true or if they are just reading back into their childhood with more coherent adult thoughts... since many human beings don't even retain memories of that time. Anyway, if you talk to any transpeople long enough, you'll see there can be a variety of experiences in when the idea became conscious for them as a possibility.

Usually there is then a period of time where the self tries on different identities, until finally they end up with "trans." (For example, for F2M transmen, they often move from girl -> tomboy -> lesbian / butch lesbian -> transman. It's like trying on clothes, and you continually find something that feels better and better on you... and then finally you find an identity that "clicks.")

If you want to examine behavioral elements, you can check the diagnostic criteria in the DSM-IV.
One page is here: http://www.mhsanctuary.com/gender/dsm.htm
 

Lily flower

New member
Joined
Jun 28, 2010
Messages
930
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
2
There are a few people who actually have both female and male body organs. Your doctor can check you for those, if you like. You can also have your genes analyzed to see if you have XX (female) or XY (male) genes, or you may also have some variations with extra X's or Ys, which usually result in an obvious genetic disorder, but is occasionally not obvious.
 

Lily flower

New member
Joined
Jun 28, 2010
Messages
930
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
2
Also, I should mention that just because you have masculine or feminie traits, it doesn't mean that you are transgendered. You can be completely female, yet exhibit many masculine characteristics (think ISTJ). You can also be completely male and exhibit many feminine traits (think ESFJ).
 

BlueGray

New member
Joined
Oct 7, 2009
Messages
474
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5
As Lily said there are some cases of genetics being different. The X female and XYY and XXY male do occur, although I think in humans the fetus would die before birth. Hormone balances can change physical characteristics creating XY males with female anatomy or XX females with male anatomy so it comes to reason such effects could be lessened and create a sense of gender different from what chromosomes alone would indicate.
 

Randomnity

insert random title here
Joined
May 8, 2007
Messages
9,485
MBTI Type
ISTP
Enneagram
6w5
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
As Lily said there are some cases of genetics being different. The X female and XYY and XXY male do occur, although I think in humans the fetus would die before birth. Hormone balances can change physical characteristics creating XY males with female anatomy or XX females with male anatomy so it comes to reason such effects could be lessened and create a sense of gender different from what chromosomes alone would indicate.
You're mostly right, but humans are actually viable (though usually infertile but maybe some exceptions) with these genetics:

XXY (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klinefelter's_syndrome)
XXX (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_X_syndrome)
XYY (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XYY_syndrome)
X female (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turner_syndrome)

And probably others. The X and Y chromosomes are actually remarkable in the relatively small effects you see losing/gaining them (compared to other chromosomes)

(ps - not a good idea to google "xxx female". I wasn't thinking at all :doh:)

edit: to the best of my knowledge this isn't related to transgender..ness? at all. As I recall even cases like the XY females are typically female-identified, although I'm sure some exceptions might exist that I don't know about. This sorta makes sense because all the male-female differences that we know about are caused directly by the Y chromosome, so if it's not activating (I would suspect the mechanism for most XY females), you wouldn't see any of the "male" features, including brain differences. Of course, science doesn't really understand transgender issues at all yet, so who knows really.
 

BlueGray

New member
Joined
Oct 7, 2009
Messages
474
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5
Interesting. With how severe chromosome problems are on other chromosomes I wasn't expecting that it would be so common. It isn't surprising to see that XYY is the most normal of the abnormalities, though.

I would imagine that an XY male that had problems in the Y activating but not complete dysfunction like the XY female might have a feeling of being female but neither the chromosomes nor the phenotype of a female. Having the dysfunction occur later in life would also create hormonal differences to create a feeling of being female when the hormones have already created the male phenotype.
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
50,187
MBTI Type
BELF
Enneagram
594
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
A lot of the conversation in this thread is actually discussing what is known as the intersexed condition/community rather than transgender per se, although there has been a lot of conversation within the last decade about whether transgender and transsexuality is simply a lesser form of the intersexed condition, where the body is actually viable (reproductively) with the apparent gender while brain structure has not differentiated to match. Experiments with rats and other animals has shown the impact of changing hormonal makeup in utero at specific windows of time upon sexual behavior in the adult animal. However, we can only really witness sexual behavior in animals, since the animal itself doesn't seem to be in a position to describe its "gender identity" to us.

Chromosomes are important only because a Y chromosome knocks the developing fetus into a masculine track (consider the Y chromosome to be a "blueprint" so to speak)... but there are many ways that the fetus can be knocked back off track, just as when the contractor goes to build the house, he can choose to deviate from the blueprints in question or might substitute other building materials or change the layout of the planned building based on immediate events.

The majority of transpeople, if tested, do not seem to have any issues with their chromosones. Only a very small percentage actually have Klinefelter's or other sex-related genetic conditions. So whatever is causing the transgender identity issues comes from something else besides just the issue of whether one has XX or XY (or some variation of)chromosomes.

Note the hormonal shifts typically have to occur during particular windows of development to result in identity issues. Once identity is established, feminizing males and masculinizing females seems to create transgender people rather than fixing them. (Note the case studies on normal XY males who have been surgically altered and raised as female, for example. A percentage seem to adjust to some degree, but a strong percentage don't adjust at all and still identify as male.) It's not a lot different than giving testosterone to gay males; instead of making them straight, it typically just increases sex drive (for males). Giving testosterone to those who identify as pre-op M2F just seems to increase the dysphoria, not fix it.

Interesting. I have a Transgendered friend IRL and there are plenty online... From what I've gathered from them they've had a nagging thought or feeling that their body wasn't theirs, or at least isn't supposed to be the way it is gender wise. To that I usually ask how they know that, did you stand up to pee one day only to ruin your carpet? This is usually where I hit the brick wall.

It's probably better to hit the brick wall than your carpet. :)

About the only way to get it across would be one day for you to wake up in a female body or even ANY other sort of body (dog, cat, whatever)... while remembering who you were... and have the rest of the world treat you according to your new form.

Aside from practical issues, gender also is directly relevant in social mores about dating and relationships and love... thus impacting who we are allowed to date and not date and build "true love" with in our culture. So you've not only got the body issue and feeling like you are not yourself, you've also got the whole LGB experience where society still tends to ostracize/regulate minority sexual preferences. Double whammy.

Also, I should mention that just because you have masculine or feminie traits, it doesn't mean that you are transgendered. You can be completely female, yet exhibit many masculine characteristics (think ISTJ). You can also be completely male and exhibit many feminine traits (think ESFJ).

Which is an important point.

T women and F guys still typically have the appropriate gender identity, regardless of how their traits pan out on the social scale. They just might have issues and wonder about themselves from time to time just due to the social challenges they have to process, but typically they still have a traditionally-gendered sense of self.
 

Aquarelle

Starcrossed Seafarer
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
Messages
3,144
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
4w5
Instinctual Variant
so/sp
This is a very interesting and educational discussion - especially Jennifer's posts.

This:
(ps - not a good idea to google "xxx female". I wasn't thinking at all :doh:)

cracked me up though-- hahhah!!
:) :)
 

Lily flower

New member
Joined
Jun 28, 2010
Messages
930
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
2
About a year ago watched a news show on PBS that discussed people that have one set of genes for most of their body, but that have a different set of genes for other smaller areas of their body. They don't know why, but it has caused a few problems with court cases, especially in paternity issues. After that show, I wondered if some of the non-traditional gender issues might actually stem from some sort of mixed gene condition.
 

Lily flower

New member
Joined
Jun 28, 2010
Messages
930
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
2
Tetragametic chimerism is a form of congenital chimerism. This condition occurs through the fertilization of two separate ova by two sperm, followed by the fusion of the two at the blastocyst or zygote stages. This results in the development of an organism with intermingled cell lines. Put another way, the chimera is formed from the merging of two nonidentical twins in a very early (zygote or blastocyst) phase. As such, they can be male, female, or hermaphroditic.

(from Wikipedia)
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
50,187
MBTI Type
BELF
Enneagram
594
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
This:
... not a good idea to google "xxx female". I wasn't thinking at all

cracked me up though-- hahhah!!

ROFL! I totally missed that!

Lily Flower said:
Tetragametic chimerism is a form of congenital chimerism. This condition occurs through the fertilization of two separate ova by two sperm, followed by the fusion of the two at the blastocyst or zygote stages. This results in the development of an organism with intermingled cell lines. Put another way, the chimera is formed from the merging of two nonidentical twins in a very early (zygote or blastocyst) phase. As such, they can be male, female, or hermaphroditic.

There some good basic descriptions of various Intersex conditions on the wiki page (in the Conditions section), along with mention of chimerism and mosaicism...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex

Like you describe, I first ran across chimerism on television (probably TLC or Discovery) and found it fascinating -- it was typically in conjunction with cases where a mother almost lost her child because the courts insisted she could not genetically be the mother... then they eventually would discover the other strain of genetics in her body (depending on where they took the sample) that showed she was indeed the mom.

I doubt it's a prevalent cause... but how would we be able to check? It's not even as if it's a 50/50 split and thus both sets of genetics being easy to find in the body. I think the one mom only had the telltale genetic line in her kidneys and part of another internal organ... not normally something that you get samples drawn from.

... gee, and now I'm remembering Stephen King's "The Dark Half" where Tad absorbed his brother in utero and had cysts in his brain with Stark's teeth and eyeball lodged there.
 
E

Epiphany

Guest
... gee, and now I'm remembering Stephen King's "The Dark Half" where Tad absorbed his brother in utero and had cysts in his brain with Stark's teeth and eyeball lodged there.

Ha!...reminds me of this:

[YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9tHJ-cm338"]Resorbed Fetus[/YOUTUBE]
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
50,187
MBTI Type
BELF
Enneagram
594
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Interesting article on ABCNews today about people who have detransitioned.
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/MindMo...nder-woman-back-man-surgery/story?id=12095720

I include it since it's relevant to the question -- even among people who identify as the opposite gender and/or decide to make changes to themselves to accommodate that, it can be an arduous and confusing business.

But I already have issues with some of the article, which distorts the casework.

- Donna Rose is a prominent trans activitist; I'm actually going to hear her speak tonight up in Harrisburg on issues of trans health. By her own admission (in her published memoirs), she rushed the transition process and actually got breast implants when she went full-time at work, but she wasn't emotionally ready to be out in public as a woman. Her spouse was also very religious and antagonistic, so the anxiety coupled with the fear of loss caused her to get the implants removed and temporarily return to guy mode... for four months. After that point, she made the decision to go ahead again, went more slowly, and was more emotionally prepared to deal with the anxiety and the loss. She doesn't regret her decision and has been very active in the community and public life for years.

- Charles Kane was rich and basically skipped through the therapeutic process without doing the emotional work -- he transitioned as a "band aid," realized he hated it, then switched back. In other words, if he hadn't cheated on asking himself hard questions earlier on, he wouldn't have done it.

- Renee Richards was famous in the 70's as (I think) a dentist/doctor and then as a low-level professional tennis player on the women's circuit. In the 90's, she had a lot of vitriol about her transition, which this article quotes, but stuff she has published within the last five years recants those statements and she seems happy with who she is.

- Christine Daniels transitioned later in life and had a high-profile transition, doing a blog for the LA Times (?), as a sports writer. She did amazingly well socially, but within a year crashed and burned. She didn't realize how difficult it would be for her being out in the limelight like that... and since she was older, she had lived far too long as a male and also had unrealistic expectations for her appearance to see herself clearly. No matter how she looked, she felt like she was a laughingstock. She also could not take any criticism from people about her appearance, which is kind of avoidable if you are in the public limelight. She also lost the love of her life when she transitioned. She become heavily depressed and bitter and tried to switch back... but it didn't restore her marriage, and it only worsened her self-esteem enough that she killed herself a year ago by carbon monoxide poisoning in her garage. The problem was she still felt like she was Christine and detransitioned for other reasons -- the pressures of transition can be very difficult and the social/relational losses immense.

So confusion about one's identity doesn't even seem to be based on their own sense of identity, it's also mixed with a lot of fear of loss and public ridicule if they accept who they feel they are.
 

Randomnity

insert random title here
Joined
May 8, 2007
Messages
9,485
MBTI Type
ISTP
Enneagram
6w5
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Interesting article! I always thought there was piles and piles of therapy sessions required to "convince" your therapist you were serious about (mostly) permanent changes like surgery? Maybe if you're uber rich you get to buy off people and skip that, though.

Do you think there should be an enforced waiting period between phases i.e. starting (hormones/whatever), dressing/whatever else for part-time or full-time, getting the official stuff changed, then a waiting time (months, at least) before actual surgery? I could see people heatedly arguing for either side. I would probably lean to the side of some kind of waiting period, but seeing as I don't really know much of the issue, I'm not exactly qualified to have an opinion. I think both situations are pretty tragic (forced to wait, or rushing into a life-changing decision). Maybe person-by-person basis is best, I don't know.
 
O

Oberon

Guest
Renee Richards wrote a memoir titled "How to Play Tennis Without Balls," if I remember correctly. Clever.
 

prplchknz

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 11, 2007
Messages
34,397
MBTI Type
yupp
I interviewed my mom's co worker who's male-female transgender had a family was married, one day came out of the closet and said I've been living a lie i think she was 40 her kids apparently acccept her as does the ex-wife. but they're divorced. I find because I'm not transgendered that i love talking to transgender people, its so fascinating, something I'll never fully understand but can accept it. It's like you're a woman in a man's body that's cool, lets have cake. But I heard that for a lot of people that same scenerio doesn't go as well.
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
50,187
MBTI Type
BELF
Enneagram
594
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Interesting article! I always thought there was piles and piles of therapy sessions required to "convince" your therapist you were serious about (mostly) permanent changes like surgery? Maybe if you're uber rich you get to buy off people and skip that, though.

<<A subset of the "transgendered" in the title, since we're just talking about people who transition...>>

Basically, if you know who to talk to or where to go, nowadays you can actually get hormones w/o prescription -- usually from overseas, and it's the same stuff you get from a doctor.

The gist is that GID wasn't widely known in the 70's, and there were few specialists; nowadays there's a lot more awareness in the medical community and the consensus from AMA is that medical treatment is a viable resolution since therapeutic success was arduous and rare. While that might be good for those who seriously need access to medical treatment, it also has eased up some of the gates that formerly made physical transition a real hardship for transsexuals.

Technically, Harry Benjamin's standards of care (SoC) were in effect until maybe the mid-2000's and were used to make sure people didn't slip through the system. I think those standards were subsumed into the WPATH standards, which are international in origin, a few years ago. The standards are just a proposed regimen that doctors should follow when treating people medically. Your reputation surgeons WILL follow the standards even though there is no punishment for them not to (as far as I know), at the bare minimum to protect themselves against a malpractice lawsuit by patients like Charles Kane; considering the nature of the surgery, you can only imagine what malpractice insurance costs are like for surgeons in that line of work. (I think one doctor said her private practice paid $60K a year just for malpractice insurance.)

I don't feel like googling it, but the basic rules usually include living at least a year (24/7), including holding a job, in the identified gender; and then two letters of confirmation, one of them at least from a licensed psychiatrist/specialist rather than just a therapist.

There's a wide degree of practice nowadays. At one end, you have doctors who are willing (in conjunction with therapist assessments) to prescribe puberty blockers for trans-identifying teenagers, so that their bodies don't change a lot before they become legal adults and can decide whether or not to pursue transition; at the other, you have places like Johns Hopkins, where often they will make patients live in the target gender for at least a year WITHOUT hormones... which is more "old school thought." The standard practice lies somewhere in the middle.

Do you think there should be an enforced waiting period between phases i.e. starting (hormones/whatever), dressing/whatever else for part-time or full-time, getting the official stuff changed, then a waiting time (months, at least) before actual surgery? I could see people heatedly arguing for either side. I would probably lean to the side of some kind of waiting period, but seeing as I don't really know much of the issue, I'm not exactly qualified to have an opinion. I think both situations are pretty tragic (forced to wait, or rushing into a life-changing decision). Maybe person-by-person basis is best, I don't know.

Personally? I think decisions like this are complex to begin with, and since they are at least based somewhat on emotional states, it makes a lot of sense to have waiting periods as well as various hoops, but with flexibility based on the patient (and money shouldn't have anything to do with it)... but I seem to be on the conservative end of things. most people -- especially patients who transition late in life -- seem to really resent having anyone tell them what to do. The head of one support site noted that for no other big life decision (having kids, getting married, retiring, etc.) are people required to go through a psychological battery of tests and be "given permission," so it seems ludicrous.

People also are not required to get permission to get "cosmetic surgery"; if you want a nose job, the doctor gives it to you if you have money. If you want liposuction, the doctor gives it to you. I feel personally like it's a double standard for prominent voices to decry this sort of surgery as merely "cosmetic surgery," and yet then enforce so many stipulations on it. If it's just cosmetic surgery, then people should be allowed to pay out of pocket whenever they want; if it's NOT (and I don't think it is), then hoops make more sense... and it should also be covered by medical insurance, as the AMA suggested and the IRS validated this past year by announcing it was now medically tax-deductable in the United States.

Still, since the causes of GID feelings are not understood and perhaps not identical from patient to patient, I feel personally like people should have to go through some period of therapy, and that for each stage there should be a period of time where they get to adjust to the new change. I mean, we all see what happens when people "fall in love and get married" after six weeks; at least then, they can get a divorce. At the time, they're very sure of themselves. I think caution is prudent. You don't want to make a horrible mistake.

...I find because I'm not transgendered that i love talking to transgender people, its so fascinating, something I'll never fully understand but can accept it.... But I heard that for a lot of people that same scenerio doesn't go as well.

heh. yeah. you got that right!
 

Kasper

Diabolical
Joined
May 30, 2008
Messages
11,590
MBTI Type
ENTP
Enneagram
9w8
Instinctual Variant
so/sx
People also are not required to get permission to get "cosmetic surgery"; if you want a nose job, the doctor gives it to you if you have money. If you want liposuction, the doctor gives it to you. I feel personally like it's a double standard for prominent voices to decry this sort of surgery as merely "cosmetic surgery," and yet then enforce so many stipulations on it. If it's just cosmetic surgery, then people should be allowed to pay out of pocket whenever they want; if it's NOT (and I don't think it is), then hoops make more sense... and it should also be covered by medical insurance, as the AMA suggested and the IRS validated this past year by announcing it was now medically tax-deductable in the United States.

Gotta love the American Health Care system! It is a double standard.

Re the OP, like Jen said, being transgendered simply means you don't conform to binary gender norms, that can be as extreme or subtle as you chose. In terms of 'how do you know if you're transsexual?' I think how you see yourself in your mind is a good place to start, is there cohesion between your mind and body, do you feel androgynous or genderless or do you picture yourself as the opposite gender?

The talk about chromosomes is an intersexed issue, interesting as it may be it doesn't answer the question how do you know if you're transgendered/transsexual.
 
Top