Jealousy: It shows you care

[Ivy]

Presumably there are differing amounts of jealousy, I don't know what the right amount is per se, but my opinion is that you have to have jealousy over your partner doing certain things with other people, or you relationship with that person is completely unworthy of note, akin to my relationship to my mail deliverer.

Or you just fully trust that person not to do those things with other people.

 

[Ivy]

I also think that by saying "if you would ever feel sadness at being betrayed by your significant other, and/or would consider ending the relationship over said betrayal, then you have jealousy," you've so widely defined jealousy that it becomes a meaningless catch-all term for all possible negative feelings about a romantic relationship.

 

[Ivy]

Had more to say than I thought at first:

Presumably there are differing amounts of jealousy, I don't know what the right amount is per se, but my opinion is that you have to have jealousy over your partner doing certain things with other people, or you relationship with that person is completely unworthy of note, akin to my relationship to my mail deliverer.

Or you just fully trust that person not to do those things with other people.

Jealousy is anger over something that you think should be yours going to someone else. If you can have no jealousy, your relationship must be a blank contract.

Your if-then statements seem a little rigid to me. There's another option here, which is that having no jealousy is a sign of having fully abandoned yourself to a relationship, and chose to fully trust your partner not to fuck you over, which is an extremely passionate place to be. If you do that and then are later betrayed and decide to end the relationship, what you feel is not jealousy, it's grief- which is why what MLF said about jealousy being a form of premature grief was so profound to me. Feeling that grief prematurely, perhaps in an effort to keep yourself from being surprised by it later, is what jealousy is.

 

[Magic Poriferan]

No. Jealousy and love are incompatible.
If I love you and you never give me any cause for jealousy, it would be inappropriate for me to feel jealous. Unloving, in fact. That doesn't imply that I'm blase about how you choose to conduct yourself. It means that I trust you implicitly in the absence of any reason not to.

There is no universal definition of what is an isn't an appropriate cause for jealousy. Which is where the next part comes in.

If I love you and you give me reasonable cause for jealousy, that would be unloving on your part. I have to then decide whether you are invested enough in the relationship for me to want to maintain it, or if I might have been misled as to your character. Being jealous is not a solution - it contributes nothing.

Maybe I didn't know it's something you would consider cause for jealousy.

The thing to do here would then be to communicate what your expectations are, and from the other person can try to determine if they can live by those expectations.

Or you just fully trust that person not to do those things with other people.

And if you misplaced your trust?

I also think that by saying "if you would ever feel sadness at being betrayed by your significant other, and/or would consider ending the relationship over said betrayal, then you have jealousy," you've so widely defined jealousy that it becomes a meaningless catch-all term for all possible negative feelings about a romantic relationship.

Hardly. I didn't actually use the word betrayal, which might be important. There are lots of ways to be hurt by a significant other that don't involve them providing to others what you think should be yours.

 

[Thalassa]

I'm really proud of these people who say that if their significant other did something to make them jealous they wouldn't be worth their love. So tough. So rigid. So convinced their love for that person wouldn't continue. So logical about love.

/sarcasm

It's not that easy for me to change my feelings. I can't just shut down like that. It's unrealistic to say that I would. I'd like to. But no.

 

[Ivy]

And if you misplaced your trust?

Well, that would blow, and maybe you would either grieve the end of the relationship then or feel some temporary hurt if the breach of trust isn't great enough to end the relationship over and can be repaired. But if that never happens, then you never have to grieve or feel the hurt. I disagree that the capacity for being hurt by a relationship is tantamount to present jealousy. I think this whole line of reasoning is a big red herring actually.

Hardly. I didn't actually use the word betrayal, which might be important. There are lots of ways to be hurt by a significant other that don't involve them providing to others what you think should be yours.

I don't really see how changing "betrayal" to "hurt" in my post changes the meaning of it at all. Is every hurt feeling in a relationship jealousy? I don't think it is.

 

[Magic Poriferan]

Your if-then statements seem a little rigid to me. There's another option here, which is that having no jealousy is a sign of having fully abandoned yourself to a relationship, and chose to fully trust your partner not to fuck you over, which is an extremely passionate place to be. If you do that and then are later betrayed and decide to end the relationship, what you feel is not jealousy, it's grief- which is why what MLF said about jealousy being a form of premature grief was so profound to me. Feeling that grief prematurely, perhaps in an effort to keep yourself from being surprised by it later, is what jealousy is.

I don't see why it couldn't be both. Certainly some people seem to spend years nashing over the relationship they once had, and I do see jealousy in that, not just grief. And that's for those who end the relationship, to say nothing of the people that keep going even after their has been infidelity.

I suppose technically someone coud have no jealousy if they were only capable of wanting another person equally or less than the amount they perceived the other person to want them, but I am skeptically curious about the existence of such a person.

 

[Magic Poriferan]

Well, that would blow, and maybe you would either grieve the end of the relationship then or feel some temporary hurt if the breach of trust isn't great enough to end the relationship over and can be repaired. But if that never happens, then you never have to grieve or feel the hurt. I disagree that the capacity for being hurt by a relationship is tantamount to present jealousy. I think this whole line of reasoning is a big red herring actually.

Makes sense to me, or else I am not protective of my home as I have not actually experienced anyone committing arson upon it yet.

I don't really see how changing "betrayal" to "hurt" in my post changes the meaning of it at all. Is every hurt feeling in a relationship jealousy? I don't think it is.

No. The answer is no because I'm not relying soley on the word hurt. There was a string of words after the word hurt that were important.

 

[miss fortune]

hmmm... interesting thread

there's a difference between being proud that you're with someone and lacking trust in them enough that you want to control their every action out of an irrational fear that they'll cheat on you... the first is necissary for a healthy relationship in my opinion, the later is a sign of an UNhealthy relationship

in other words, caring is sexy, continual unfounded suspicions and controlling behavior is heinous

not showing that you care to be with someone isn't healthy either... for this reason

“The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference. The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference. The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference. And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference.” ~Elie Wiesel

 

[Ivy]

Makes sense to me, or else I am not protective of my home as I have not actually experienced anyone committing arson upon it yet.

Subjunctive mood - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The seed thought of the thread was YLJ's dealbreaker, "someone who doesn't get jealous." He didn't say "someone who wouldn't get jealous," which would apply if what you've been saying about hypothetical jealousy was at all relevant. I'd be frothing at the mouth if my partner cheated on me. Pretty sure he would be if I did that to him, too. Who wouldn't? Do you honestly think anyone would be all "*shrug* oh well!" about it?

But I picked him and stay with him in large part because I'm about as sure as I can be that he won't do that, so getting jealous would be like borrowing trouble. It's also disintegrative to the relationship to be jealous when he hasn't done anything wrong.

 

[Magic Poriferan]

I'm guessing YLJ doesn't feel he can be sure that the other person is so trusting of him as to have no jealous reaction, as admittedly it would appear indistinguishable from someone just not paying attention or caring. So I think he needs someone to react with jealousy to know that person cares, not just take it on faith.

 

[miss fortune]

I'm guessing YLJ doesn't feel he can be sure that the other person is so trusting of him as to have no jealous reaction, as admittedly it would appear indistinguishable from someone just not paying attention or caring. So I think he needs someone to react with jealousy to know that person cares, not just take it on faith.

I don't know, but overtly jealous reactions indicate that the person doesn't trust me, which hurts if I haven't given them a reason to feel so... TO ME, anyways

like I said, there's a definite difference between showing that you care, which can be done by acts of appreciation and paying attention to your SO while out and about, and acting overtly jealous

 

[Giggly]

Bingo. Love is an extreme, for one to exist there must be more.
Hate, love, passion, jealousy.
I've always found that people who seem incapable of jealousy don't have much of a depth or passion in their feelings.
That's quite ordinary, so it's probably just a temperament of sorts.

There are also these quotes....

"Real jealousy always increases the feeling of love."
"Jealousy, and therefore love, are increased when one suspects his beloved"

Andreas Capellanus: The Art of Courtly Love

and, I agree with you.

If the person I loved were to have a jealous reaction, whether I was guilty of it or not, I would never get upset, instead I would recognize the value in it and gladly do whatever they needed me to do.

 

[runvardh]

From Dictionary.com

jeal·ous
   /ˈdʒɛləs/ Show Spelled[jel-uhs] Show IPA
–adjective

1.
feeling resentment against someone because of that person's rivalry, success, or advantages (often fol. by of ): He was jealous of his rich brother.

2.
feeling resentment because of another's success, advantage, etc. (often fol. by of ): He was jealous of his brother's wealth.

3.
characterized by or proceeding from suspicious fears or envious resentment: a jealous rage; jealous intrigues.

4.
inclined to or troubled by suspicions or fears of rivalry, unfaithfulness, etc., as in love or aims: a jealous husband.

5.
solicitous or vigilant in maintaining or guarding something: The American people are jealous of their freedom.

6.
Bible . intolerant of unfaithfulness or rivalry: The Lord is a jealous god.

Ok, I have a feeling we are taking definitions 3, 4, and 5 and mixing them all up. I have had mild cases of all three at various points in time, but they were either welcome (in the case of 5) or I exited the situation soon after (in the cases of 3 and 4). They are temporary states that come from excessive situations, situations quickly dealt with and moved along from.

So whom does this offend?

 

[miss fortune]

There are also these quotes....

"Real jealousy always increases the feeling of love."
"Jealousy, and therefore love, are increased when one suspects his beloved"

Andreas Capellanus: The Art of Courtly Love

and, I agree with you.

If the person I loved were to have a jealous reaction, whether I was guilty of it or not, I would never get upset, instead I would recognize the value in it and gladly do whatever they needed me to do.

I disagree with that... to me one of the most important things in a relationship is mutual trust... if I don't trust my SO enough that I NEED to feel controlling and jealous of them I shouldn't be with them, and the same applies vice versa. I value loyalty highly, and being suspected of being disloyal by someone I love is a slap in the face... I don't want to be with them if they can't trust me- because that means that it won't work.

Affection is important, show me that you value me, just don't control me and distrust me, or the relationship has proven that it's on the rocks in your mind, so what's the point?

It's fine if you text me while I'm out on occasion to check on me, or if you give the man who's creeping on me in the bar an evil look while kissing my cheek... that shows that you DO value me (especially scaring off creeps... it's hard to get rid of creepers!)... acting all psycho when I'm talking to another guy, always having to know what I'm doing, who I'm with and sending friends out to check on what I'm up to is NOT cool... that shows that you care more about owning me than you care about me

and ANY man who looks through my cell phone or checks my e-mails is going to get dumped immediatly... I don't do ANYTHING for warrenting such suspicious behavior

 

[Giggly]

I disagree with that... to me one of the most important things in a relationship is mutual trust... if I don't trust my SO enough that I NEED to feel controlling and jealous of them I shouldn't be with them, and the same applies vice versa. I value loyalty highly, and being suspected of being disloyal by someone I love is a slap in the face... I don't want to be with them if they can't trust me- because that means that it won't work.

Affection is important, show me that you value me, just don't control me and distrust me, or the relationship has proven that it's on the rocks in your mind, so what's the point?

It's fine if you text me while I'm out on occasion to check on me, or if you give the man who's creeping on me in the bar an evil look while kissing my cheek... that shows that you DO value me (especially scaring off creeps... it's hard to get rid of creepers!)... acting all psycho when I'm talking to another guy, always having to know what I'm doing, who I'm with and sending friends out to check on what I'm up to is NOT cool... that shows that you care more about owning me than you care about me

and ANY man who looks through my cell phone or checks my e-mails is going to get dumped immediatly... I don't do ANYTHING for warrenting such suspicious behavior

There there, SP.

Everyone is different. On this, you take a defensive stance and I take an offensive stance. We both seek the same result, however, which is mutual comfort and trust.

IMO, genuine comfort and trust takes time to build. Usually when someone suspects or accuses, they do so because they don't know you well enough yet and a rare learning opportunity will arise then. That would be the time to give your love lessons.

 

[StephMC]

and ANY man who looks through my cell phone or checks my e-mails is going to get dumped immediatly... I don't do ANYTHING for warrenting such suspicious behavior

This happened to me once. I nearly flipped my lid. I'm not sure why I -didn't- end it right then and there, when 9 times out of 10 I would have Although it didn't last much longer after that.

 

[runvardh]

I don't react much outwardly on what I feel when it comes to it. Closest I get is wanting to talk, leaving, or stopping the fist that's about to hit my SO.

 

[miss fortune]

There there, SP.

Everyone is different. On this, you take a defensive stance and I take an offensive stance. We both seek the same result, however, which is mutual comfort and trust.

IMO, genuine comfort and trust takes time to build. Usually when someone suspects or accuses, they do so because they don't know you well enough yet and a rare learning opportunity will arise then. That would be the time to give your love lessons.

I've dated some real control freaks in the past who wouldn't trust me no matter how loyal I was... I HATED that, I felt like I was constantly under surveylance and the most innocent actions on my part were under severe paranoid scrutiny... I've always been the type to trust people until they prove themselves untrustworthy

my ISTJ calls himself a controlling asshole, but if he is he's severely lowkey about it He's had a past of being cheated on and being neglected and abandoned as a child and I understand that and I do the same things I've always done to put people at ease on that front... I check in with him when I'm out, I SHOW him that I care about him both in private and while out (in a non dramatic way while out because being overly mushy would embarass him) and I've chatted with other guys in his presence so that he trusts the fact that I'm just talking to them... nothing more, no matter who I'm talking to and where I'm talking to them, in his presence or not... he knows that I adore him and wouldn't do anything to hurt him, so he lets me be me... and in the end that's what I want... the freedom to be myself

I'm the innocent until proven guilty type I guess

 

[Moonstone3]

I'm gonna have to agree with Whatever here. Jealousy is bad. I've been in relationships were I was jealous, myself. And also, some that I felt no need whatsoever. The jealousy had to do with that particular person's inadequacies as a faithful mate, or the previous person bursting my self esteem bubble. I knew it was something I had to change, within me. The 'free of suspicion' relationships felt awesome. And I noticed, I felt great at that time, too. About life, about me. It's better to have looser ties, the jealousy is wound too tight in a person and it consumes them. However, some types do need this in their life, so they should be with like minded people. Too me, it's a waste of life.