Anger

[Maverick]

Now my values are different. I think it's about time people start recognizing and valuing their Anger. Anger is a very powerful emotion and is at the root of constructive change.

One of the problems I find in people today is that they are both a) too docile and b) getting frustrated at things not worth getting annoyed about.

I think a) applies to the status quo and injustice, b) applies to intolerance, lack of self-control

We are taught to be part of the herd, to be submissive, to be docile - even when authority or the situation is unfair. This conditionning starts at a very early age. Along with it comes the repression of feelings that are dangerous in their nature for the social group. Anger is one of them. When someone is angry, that person is standing up for his/her rights. That person is saying "NO, I will not put up with this". Research shows that the amount of people that have the guts of doing that is, what, 10%? Most people are like sheep - afraid of going against the status quo and getting rejected. Most people's fear of anger comes from their feelings of guilt and shame that follow from it.

You know what angers me? People who don't get angry. People not standing up for themselves. People being carpets and accepting crap like martyrs. People going along with others because they're afraid... individuals who don't realize how strong they could be if they dared speaking up for their rights. Whole groups ostracizing members they saw as "deviant" because they annoyed others in one way or the other. This is related to the "enablers" thread. And what angers me the most are passive people who are annoyed by people trying to change things. There is one thing I can't stand and that's apathy and disengagement. You know, the "wtf? Who cares. It doesn't matter. It's idealistic" cynical attitude. That's the attitude of someone who is resigned. It's like the ostrich putting her head in the sand and pretending the rest of the world didn't exist. It's weak.

Hey, we all have a responsibility in what happens around us. So instead of sitting around and complaining, we need to get angry and move our asses to act and change things. You have the RIGHT to defend your interests and stand up against what is unfair. Not expressing your anger is not being "strong", it's being passive and submissive. Don't buy into the BS of people who tell you to take the high road and ignore the problem/situation. It's because of all the people who do these things that many things never change and injustices perservere.

Don't be a follower - be the leader of yourself and don't let anyone walk on you or abuse your rights. Anger is healthy when you're fighting for your rights and against injustice. Stand up for yourself and don't let anyone take advantage of you. Your needs, wants, opinions and feelings are just as important as they are of other people. Assert yourself, put your boundaries and speak up... you'll get more of what you want, will be understood better and will be respected.

 

[Mempy]

I don't think anger is always about standing up for one's rights and claiming one's needs. Anger can help you do that, but I think you can do that without anger, too. Anger and assertiveness aren't synonymous, though assertiveness often entails that one is not ashamed to express one's anger.

Anger does have a lot of negatives. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar, and all that. If you wound someone's pride or try to coerce them into doing what you want, they'll be less likely to do it than if you asked nicely and didn't get pissed at them.

This thread isn't simply about anger and being fearful of its consequences. It's about how to tell when it's warranted and constructive and when it's not. Anger isn't always understood. It isn't always constructive. Anger is probably just like anything else: what you make it, how you use it.

But I agree. Submissiveness isn't healthy or attractive. But neither is having so much anger that you're almost always pissed and can't get along with anyone.

 

[Maverick]

I don't think anger is always about standing up for one's rights and claiming one's needs. Anger can help you do that, but I think you can do that without anger, too. Anger and assertiveness aren't synonymous, though assertiveness often entails that one is not ashamed to express one's anger.

Constructive anger is standing up for your rights. I think non-constructive anger is having too high expectancies about things and being frustrated.

Managing your anger is essential to being properly assertive. Anger can be calm, controlled and a silent force rather than a temper tantrum like it is often considered. In any case, it is still anger.

Anger does have a lot of negatives. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar, and all that. If you wound someone's pride or try to coerce them into doing what you want, they'll be less likely to do it than if you asked nicely and didn't get pissed at them.

I don't agree. I don't think you can generally say anger has a lot of negatives. It all depends on how you manage it. The situation you are alluding too is poorly managed anger.

I also don't agree with the "ask nicely" in your last point. Leaders, Teachers, Policemen and Judges show us that there is nothing like firm assertiveness signalling fair authority to get people to comply - especially groups. You have to get yourself respected first. People respect strength in others, especially if it is measured and controlled. Asking "nicely" without being firm is not being assertive and may signal that your boundaries are thin and that you would be ready to get walked upon.

This thread isn't simply about anger and being fearful of its consequences. It's about how to tell when it's warranted and constructive and when it's not.

I don't see the point you are trying to make here. Would you care to explain your reasoning in more detail?

Anger isn't always understood. It isn't always constructive. Anger is probably just like anything else: what you make it, how you use it.

Yes.

But I agree. Submissiveness isn't healthy or attractive. But neither is having so much anger that you're almost always pissed and can't get along with anyone.

I don't think submissiveness is unattractive and unhealthy when the person knows that the situation is fair and warranted. It's when someone is getting abused and accepting it that there is a problem.

Concerning your last sentence, the problem is if the anger is out of control and not managed - not with anger in itself.

 

[Tigerlily]

I don't think anger is ever constructive or useful but that's not to say that I don't lose my temper quite a bit. I am very impatient and can be irrational at times. I started taking lexapro a little over a month ago and I am much better.

I find that I get angry when things aren't as I would like them to be and when I am overwhelmed.

Constructive anger is standing up for your rights. I think non-constructive anger is having too high expectancies about things and being frustrated.

Thank you to the ENTJ for pointing out what is a better point of view. I will go with this rather than my above comment on anger not being constructive. Another fine reason to like NTJ's.

Mav, am I to assuming you prefer neg rep points?

 

[Maverick]

Thank you to the ENTJ for pointing out what is a better point of view. I will go with this rather than my above comment on anger not being constructive. Another fine reason to like NTJ's.

Mav, am I to assuming you prefer neg rep points?

Hahaha

Yes I'm all for the red dots I can only give neutral grey ones though

BTW, I had another thought expanding on the anger issue. I think some people may do things out of anger without realizing that's what helped them because they assimilate anger with an out of control reaction.

For example, recently a child in a friends' family was making alot of noise and being generally difficult. She hit an adult. Which of course made the father very angry, because she's not allowed to do that. So he looked at her and said, very calmly and in a firm voice: "Do *not* hit people. Because when you do that, you hurt others and make them feel bad. I do *not* want to see you hitting anyone again. If you hit someone again, you will be going to bed. Do I make myself clear?". That's what I call proper and controlled anger.

 

[substitute]

You know what angers me? People who don't get angry. People not standing up for themselves. People being carpets and accepting crap like martyrs. People going along with others because they're afraid... individuals who don't realize how strong they could be if they dared speaking up for their rights.

Bravo! Yes, I feel the exact same way... [rant about friend who does just that pasted to my blog lol]

And when you do make a habit of not letting yourself be trampled on, you get guilt trips from people saying you're "insensitive" and "mean". Yeah, cos I'm so mean for not letting you abuse me, huh? Or when you try to encourage others to take control of their own lives and stand up for themselves, you get called a bad influence. And their attempts to stand up for themselves are dismissed because "you've been talking to that guy again, haven't you?"

It makes me mad that so many people seem to think that when they have a personality flaw, it's everyone else's job to compensate and allow for it, rather than their job to work on it and overcome it, to a point where, when they show this flaw to the point of being very hurtful and controlling of other people, the person who tells them publicly to get stuffed gets painted as the bad guy who's so mean because he made her cry. And people go for those damn crocodile tears and start working double time to pander to the bitch.

Ahem... not that I have any personal um, involvement with this topic... LOL!!

Things like that always make me mad straight away, and I usually express it pretty soon and pretty directly.

But the other kind of anger, the one that's about the world failing your expectations or feelings of entitlement - well, on a conscious level I don't allow myself to feel that, I sorta intellectually 'destroy' the feelings virtually before they even appear. Or at least, I think I do. It has happened that many years after the event, the feelings have resurfaced. Very delayed, but strong and bewildering because I don't know what they're directed at, it takes me a long time to figure out what/how I feel and why, and I feel such an idiot when I finally do. Very disappointed in myself.

 

[Maverick]

Geez, I feel a sudden outpour of Fi

Bravo! Yes, I feel the exact same way... [rant about friend who does just that pasted to my blog lol]

And when you do make a habit of not letting yourself be trampled on, you get guilt trips from people saying you're "insensitive" and "mean". Yeah, cos I'm so mean for not letting you abuse me, huh?

I completely relate to this point. That's exactly it! I also find it really ironic how people who clearly try to abuse you then turn around the situation saying that you're the one with the problem when you stand up for yourself. That's particularly vicious manipulation.

Or when you try to encourage others to take control of their own lives and stand up for themselves, you get called a bad influence. And their attempts to stand up for themselves are dismissed because "you've been talking to that guy again, haven't you?"

Oh yeah I absolutely see where you're coming from.

It makes me mad that so many people seem to think that when they have a personality flaw, it's everyone else's job to compensate and allow for it, rather than their job to work on it and overcome it, to a point where, when they show this flaw to the point of being very hurtful and controlling of other people, the person who tells them publicly to get stuffed gets painted as the bad guy who's so mean because he made her cry. And people go for those damn crocodile tears and start working double time to pander to the bitch.

Damn right. This is why, with time, I've noticed that in some people that are supposedly bad as depicted by others - you've got the biggest integrity. In other that are supposedly good as depicted by others - you can have just about the opposite.

When you stand up, it's like breaching the "social matrix". It's like saying to everyone "Hello!!! You guys are refusing to see the obvious here? Woohoo! Can't you see?" and then people react as if telling you "Sure I can see but it's an ugly vision and I don't want to see things that way because it's stressful. I want to stay in the matrix". Well I tell you what, I'd prefer ten times living out there with the damn robots trying to kill me and Agent Smith trying to shoot my pants down than staying connected to the matrix. At least the people of Zion are genuine! And give me those mega rave parties with torrid human loving in hot n' steamy conditions

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. People trying to help the other person like that often do not realize how much they enable the situation. Often the one who denounces the problem is held responsible for it.

A good way I've found to manage such a situation is to actually assume the label given by others. This enables them to keep a "social matrix" that is not too disturbing and minimizes the conflict. By recognizing you're a bad person, the other person has nothing to argue about. Usually, in a conflict, everyone is trying to defend the fact that they're right and that they're the good guy. So if you say "Of course I'm bad and wrong. Hey, I'm a mean person" they basically have nothing to fight for and no means of manipulating.

But the other kind of anger, the one that's about the world failing your expectations or feelings of entitlement - well, on a conscious level I don't allow myself to feel that, I sorta intellectually 'destroy' the feelings virtually before they even appear. Or at least, I think I do. It has happened that many years after the event, the feelings have resurfaced. Very delayed, but strong and bewildering because I don't know what they're directed at, it takes me a long time to figure out what/how I feel and why, and I feel such an idiot when I finally do. Very disappointed in myself.

I'm just the same...

I usually take some time to reflect and meditate peacefully. I try to take distance from it and realize how my expectancies were unrealistic. I try to take things with "philosophy" and realizing that I can't fight against what I can't control and those things I must let go.

 

[Tigerlily]

I can only give neutral grey ones though.

Baahh!

 

[substitute]

Damn right. This is why, with time, I've noticed that in some people that are supposedly bad as depicted by others - you've got the biggest integrity. In other that are supposedly good as depicted by others - you can have just about the opposite.

I remember years ago when I was having a few beers with some friends (of mixed genders and sexualities lol) and we started talking about what we would look for in a mate. I was the only one that said I need to see evidence of a good-bad temper before I'm interested. I want to see that there's passion there, that it's directed at the right things in the right ways, and that it's not afraid to show itself. It's often happened in the past that when I've seen someone get really mad and yell at someone - even if it's been at me - that's been the deal breaker for me!

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. People trying to help the other person like that often do not realize how much they enable the situation. Often the one who denounces the problem is held responsible for it.

In the case of my friend who I ranted about (then removed the rant to my blog as it was digressing from topic), it frustrates me that she thinks she's doing all this helping of her controlling mother out of kindness. In fact, it's out of cowardice - fear of causing conflict and being seen as the bad guy. It's a really alien value system to me... to be more concerned about seeing yourself (and others seeing you) as a kind and compassionate person, than actually doing what really is best for you and everyone.

I usually take some time to reflect and meditate peacefully. I try to take distance from it and realize how my expectancies were unrealistic. I try to take things with "philosophy" and realizing that I can't fight against what I can't control and those things I must let go.

Yeah, same here.

 

[Maverick]

Baahh!

But thanks for the points anyway

 

[Xander]

I've always found anger to be destructive first and constructive second. Ergo I usually disappear if I'm angry. Once I've had time to kill you sixteen ways from sunday in my head a more bright and breezy mood settles and then I can return with my wits in tact and kick your ass

This whole internalise = bad thing that get's bandied about either I fail to understand it or as far as I can see it's an extroverts witch hunt. In my understanding of internalise that's exactly what I do with my anger. I stop emitting anything until the anger is processed (unless of course I'm trying to achieve something and get annoyed, in which case I often end up channelling that anger into progressing further which also often results in injuries and needing replacement things [most often I break stuff, stuff that shatters with a satisfying noise and level of mess]). I do turn inward and deal with it without recourse to emitting my foul temper (with exceptions as noted and others). I fail to see how sheparding an introvert into some "primal scream therapy"-esque treatment is a good idea. Sure they may well scream but you may also find that you'll stress them out whilst doing it and end up with an introvert up in your face which is never advisable.

Personally I deal with anger strictly but that's mainly because I hate being angry. People swarm you when you're annoyed and try to check if everything is okay every frickin 5 seconds (can you tell I live with an ESTP? ). You get "concerned" Fs trying to soothe your temper when all you want is for everyone to stop looking and pointing before the instinct to poke their eyes out with their own pointing fingers grows too much to bear.

That's why my first response to anger is removal of the source of annoyance often by avoiding it.
Then I tend to fume for a while before a new and more interesting idea comes along at which point I can't really be bothered to maintain my flame.

The only time I really can tell the difference between sheer unreasoned anger and the more tempered heat of righteous focused wrath is simply by the presence of reasoning.

If I can reason and plan and analyse and figure out my next few steps (usually only a few cause I know full well that I won't be annoyed for long and so only make short term plans for it). If I am in the mood to achieve something constructive with my fuming then it's probably a reasonable mood (in context to the situation) where as if all I wish to do is injure people or rid myself of them somehow then (presuming it's someone I wouldn't normally wish to rid myself of) I'm probably feeling unreasonable and hence shouldn't really "bite" on this temptation.

Of course another thing which I've found helped is music which resonates with my darker side. If I can enjoy the fires held there without having to be annoyed or irritated first then I become familiar with it and am more able to cope with it. That's not to say that people who listen to death metal all day are well adjusted, everything in moderation.

 

[RDF]

Hmmm. I hadn't really focused on the differentiation between the hurt and the anger before these two posts (although others probably brought up the differentiation as well).

I tend to blow through the "hurt" portion of it pretty quickly. Dwelling on the "hurt" starts making me feel like a victim, and I don't really want to spend time there. If I spend time dwelling on the hurt, then I get into more of a "revenge mode" where I want the response or compensation from the other person to be proportional to the hurt. But that seems counterproductive to me, because I'm probably not going to be able to convince the other party to value my hurt at the same cost as me.

Instead, I tend to use the anger to blow off steam, then I can be proactive and move onto the stage of coming up with some resolutions. The resolutions don't have to incorporate the hurt, per se. The resolutions just have to establish some way we can live together without irritating each other: Like setting up some rules or erecting some good boundaries and then building trust by seeing each other adhere to the rules or boundaries. A lot of times, conflict arises in the first place because the parties had different assumptions about where the boundary lines were located.

I think it comes from my time in the military: There were all kinds of routine little petty clashes, and there wasn't time to hold onto all the issues and sort them out. Better to get past the hurt and get on with working out some way to agree to disagree.

My wife is more about dwelling on the hurt, and she can go the opposite direction from me and get into a whole thing where she doesn't care about working out a modus vivendi and getting past the conflict; first she needs to extract a pound of flesh from the other person to assuage the hurt.

Sometimes I don't get where my wife is coming from; I just figure it takes two to tango, and each party was probably equally at fault in their own way (or from the other's perspective).

But that's just my quick response to this new (to me) issue. I'll have to think about it more, especially in the context of Toonia's post (given that she's the OP).

I see that the thread has moved on since yesterday. But I just wanted to return to the topic of hurt vs. anger.

I've definitely gotten stuck in periods of "hurt" or a feeling of being "wounded" in the past, especially during long-term conflicts or long periods of stress.

When a conflict or period of stress is extended, I may experience longer stages of progression to a resolution, or I may cycle repeatedly through various stages as issues keep coming up. For example: an extended fight or feud with a family member or roommate; or a prolonged period of job uncertainty where my workplace is going through lay-offs and I have to worry about my job.

Thinking back to such episodes in my life, it seems to me that I go through a progression: 1) Feeling hurt or wounded, 2) Fear, 3) Anger, and 4) Clarity or resolution.

IOW, going through the stages in progression:

1) I feel hurt or wounded by a person or events and tend to want some kind of recompense and strong acknowledgment of my needs. But I rarely get what I want: In the event of a personal conflict, the other party doesn't value my hurt the same as me and/or may be wrapped up in hurt of their own; in the event of an outside event like job lay-offs, there's nothing to do but suck it up and wait it out.

2) If I'm not getting any response to my hurt and the conflict or stress continues, I may sink into fear--a fear that the other person is being permanently unreasonable (in the event of personal conflicts) or fate has conspired to deprive me of basic necessities that other people enjoy (in the event of prolonged stress due to job uncertainty or some other outside event).

3) But I only tend to put up with fear so long; fear inspires a fighting instinct and gets me irritable and then angry; feeling caged, I start raging and rattling my cage.

4) Having thrown a temper tantrum, I'm more likely to cool off, maybe even see the humor in my situation, maybe feel a little silly at my childish tantrum and the rather silly fears that occasioned it, and start casting about for a genuinely workable solution.

IOW I see this as a cycle, with each successive stage occurring as a reaction to the preceding stage. That is, hurt and anger aren't concurrent, and the level of anger isn't necessarily related to the level of hurt. The hurt and anger may not even be aimed at the same thing: When I'm stressed due to neutral outside events like a possible job lay-off, my fear is directed at the lay-offs, but my anger may be directed at the feeling of being caged by hurt and fear. I may be enraged at the sensation of "hurt" itself.

This is all rather subtle, perhaps over-subtle. But I think it explains why I tend to want to get past the hurt quickly, and why I welcome the anger. The hurt is unproductive and early in the cycle, and I don't want to get trapped there. The anger, on the other hand is late in the cycle and is productive in the sense that it pulls me out of the early slump of hurt and fear and kicks me forward into the most productive part of the cycle--the resolution.

With time and age I've run through the cycle so many times for so many different types of experiences that I can practically skip past the early stages of hurt and fear and go right to the anger, especially for smaller problems. By contrast, I don't really understand others who get stuck on the hurt and remain there. It's the least productive part of the cycle; one rarely gets one's needs met there.

Also, as I noted earlier in the thread, I tend to see these emotional events as "reality checks." I've accepted that there has to be some kind of change (either in me or in my environment) before I can move forward. But dwelling on the hurt doesn't seem change-oriented--the "hurt" stage of the cycle just seems to want recompense and a restoration of the status quo ante. Anger, on the other hand, seems more action- and change-oriented.

Just for background: I was poking around at Wikipedia a little bit, reading articles on anger and related subjects. I didn't find anything which encapsulated all of the above. But an article on self-preservation noted that pain and fear tend to stimulate adrenaline, which presumably would make it that much easier to move onward to anger (if one were so inclined). And an article on anger notes that "Anger can mobilize psychological resources for corrective action," presumably making it a productive end stage of the cycle. So maybe that provides some partial substantiation for seeing anger as the end of a multi-stage cycle in response to stress and conflict.

Self preservation is part of an animal's instinct that demands that the organism survives. Pain and fear are parts of this mechanism. Pain causes discomfort so that the organism is inclined to stop the pain. Fear causes the organism to seek safety and may cause a release of adrenaline which has the effect of increased strength and heightened senses such as hearing, smell, and sight.

Self preservation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Three types of anger are recognized by psychologists: One connected to the impulse for self-preservation, occurring when the person or animal is tormented or trapped. The second type of anger is a reaction to perceived deliberate harm doing or unfair treatment by others. Irritability, sullenness and churlishness are examples of the third type of anger which is related more to character traits than to instincts or cognitions.

Modern psychologists view anger as a primary, natural and even mature emotion experienced by all humans at times, something that has functional value for survival. Anger can mobilize psychological resources for corrective action. Uncontrolled anger can however negatively affect personal or social well-being.

Anger - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[RDF]

A good way I've found to manage such a situation is to actually assume the label given by others. This enables them to keep a "social matrix" that is not too disturbing and minimizes the conflict. By recognizing you're a bad person, the other person has nothing to argue about. Usually, in a conflict, everyone is trying to defend the fact that they're right and that they're the good guy. So if you say "Of course I'm bad and wrong. Hey, I'm a mean person" they basically have nothing to fight for and no means of manipulating.

I agree, especially if you want to show any kind of leadership (be a boss in the workplace, or create any kind of difficult change in a social setting). Someone has to be the "bad guy" if things are going to get done, and it's easiest just to accept the label and trust that the short-term results--or your long-term track record--will ultimately vindicate your efforts.

 

[RDF]

Personally I deal with anger strictly but that's mainly because I hate being angry. People swarm you when you're annoyed and try to check if everything is okay every frickin 5 seconds (can you tell I live with an ESTP? ). You get "concerned" Fs trying to soothe your temper when all you want is for everyone to stop looking and pointing before the instinct to poke their eyes out with their own pointing fingers grows too much to bear.

I do the same thing. When I get stressed and angry, I need a lot of space and can't stand anyone interfering. I want a human-free zone around me with at least a 50-foot radius.

 

[Xander]

I do the same thing. When I get stressed and angry, I need a lot of space and can't stand anyone interfering. I want a human-free zone around me with at least a 50-foot radius.

You forgot the cost free glass and wooden panelling with a carefully discarded melee weapon with which to vent

 

[Domino]

I have to have (HAVE TO) alone time for as long as I need it or another eruption occurs.

*kills Xander 20 ways creatively and smiles sweetly to self* Ah me. Found dreams these...

 

[Xander]

I have to have (HAVE TO) alone time for as long as I need it or another eruption occurs.

*kills Xander 20 ways creatively and smiles sweetly to self* Ah me. Found dreams these...

I've been turned into ENFJ porno!!!

 

[Domino]

I've been turned into ENFJ porno!!!

It's an exciting place. Come on, daredevil, and kick the tires. We have cookies... hahahha!

(I'm putting Xander in a Freudian headlock thinking about his sister right now... MWAHAHAHAHA!! *tamps down inner Hamlet...*)

 

[Xander]

It's an exciting place. Come on, daredevil, and kick the tires. We have cookies... hahahha!

(I'm putting Xander in a Freudian headlock thinking about his sister right now... MWAHAHAHAHA!! *tamps down inner Hamlet...*)

Errm it's worse than that. ENFJs are all around me! Not only is my sister one but my future mother in law is another and also my best mate! Now mike may well be "confident" enough to have straggly hair about three feet long but I reckon he'd draw the line way before this stuff!!!

Anyhow of course I'll kick the tyres. how's about we start with that spare one you're dragging about?

 

[Domino]

Errm it's worse than that. ENFJs are all around me! Not only is my sister one but my future mother in law is another and also my best mate! Now mike may well be "confident" enough to have straggly hair about three feet long but I reckon he'd draw the line way before this stuff!!!

ENFJs are plotting on you, Xander. Go quietly and we won't eat your liver. With fava beans.

Anyhow of course I'll kick the tyres. how's about we start with that spare one you're dragging about?

Just for that, I'm going to go to bed tonight and have a really hot dream about Christian Bale just so you'll get the creeps and have to change your avatar.