People who refuse to change their unhappy situations.

[wolfy]

I guess the mindset goes my unhappiness and hate gives me meaning. Separates me and gives me my identity apart from people. I have something that defines me, no matter how bad it is.

 

[Sniffles]

In her case, she's not dumb...
And changing jobs is not rocket science.

She doesn't have to be dumb to be in that kind of predicament. And the question she could be asking where else would she go? What kind of kind and where? If she's overwhelmed and miserable with her current job, that may make it more difficult for her to think through this stuff with a clear head.

 

[OrangeAppled]

This, precisely- is what I do not understand.
There is rarely an odd situation with these people. From my perspective, it's like someone who thinks they have a broken leg or wants to have a broken leg so that they don't need to run a marathon. In this situation, it looks like the worst thing to do is comfort them and support them, as they have been sitting in their comfort zone for so long. People crawl out of bad situations and ruts all the time. There is no obstacle in picking up an application or just doing the one simple thing that's going to make the change. To me it all looks so helpless and lazy from people who don't necessarily have sincerely helpless situations.

In the case of my above friend, the first person who responded was, "I agree- it's terrible what working with the "public" will do to you." That's a comforting statement that won't get either of them anywhere. As if "working with the public" caused all of the problems to begin with. No ownership whatsoever.

Exactly, from your perspective it seems easy, but your perspective is limited to the surface. Your perspective does not see fears, insecurities & wounds deeply rooted from past experience. The biggest obstacles are not physical - they're emotional and psychological.

Whose says that comfort means coddling them or removing responsibility anyway? You can make an effort to understand why someone feels & acts in a certain way without condoning it as a good course of action or mindset. To understand does not mean to agree.

The idea is to get someone to trust you to open up, so you can see the real issue and then maybe actually be able to offer advice that is helpful or help them begin to change their thought process. To do that, you have to show you are on their side, and not going to just criticize them & write off their feelings with obvious advice. Asking questions & listening is really all that is required - it comforts by simply taking an interest in them, which communicates that you value them which builds confidence, and it encourages them to think things through to work towards a solution. You serve as a sort of thought prompt for them to come to their own conclusions, as opposed to dictating ideas.

It seems clear you are fed up with this person & consider her a lost cause, in which case, maybe it's time to sever the ties. You're both dragging each other down otherwise.

 

[Sniffles]

Exactly, from your perspective it seems easy, but your perspective is limited to the surface. Your perspective does not see fears, insecurities & wounds deeply rooted from past experience. The biggest obstacles are not physical - they're emotional and psychological.

Whose says that comfort means coddling them or removing responsibility anyway? You can make an effort to understand why someone feels & acts in a certain way without condoning it as a good course of action or mindset. To understand does not mean to agree.

The idea is to get someone to trust you to open up, so you can see the real issue and then maybe actually be able to offer advice that is helpful or help them begin to change their thought process. To do that, you have to show you are on their side, and not going to just criticize them & write off their feelings with obvious advice. Asking questions & listening is really all that is required - it comforts by simply taking an interest in them, which communicates that you value them which builds confidence, and it encourages them to think things through to work towards a solution. You serve as a sort of thought prompt for them to come to their own conclusions, as opposed to dictating ideas.

It seems clear you are fed up with this person & consider her a lost cause, in which case, maybe it's time to sever the ties. You're both dragging each other down otherwise.

You said it better than I could. +1!

 

[King sns]

Exactly, from your perspective it seems easy, but your perspective is limited to the surface. Your perspective does not see fears, insecurities & wounds deeply rooted from past experience. The biggest obstacles are not physical - they're emotional and psychological.

Whose says that comfort means coddling them or removing responsibility anyway? You can make an effort to understand why someone feels & acts in a certain way without condoning it as a good course of action or mindset. To understand does not mean to agree.

The idea is to get someone to trust you to open up, so you can see the real issue and then maybe actually be able to offer advice that is helpful or help them begin to change their thought process. To do that, you have to show you are on their side, and not going to just criticize them & write off their feelings with obvious advice. Asking questions & listening is really all that is required - it comforts by simply taking an interest in them, which communicates that you value them which builds confidence, and it encourages them to think things through to work towards a solution. You serve as a sort of thought prompt for them to come to their own conclusions, as opposed to dictating ideas.

It seems clear you are fed up with this person & consider her a lost cause, in which case, maybe it's time to sever the ties. You're both dragging each other down otherwise.

Actually, ties already have been severed. I will not understand where she is coming from and have been supportive and understanding through her life until I moved away and started my own life. Now she still remains a friend. Being that I grew up with her as her closest friend, I know almost every detail of her life. There's nothing there to stop her from being happy except apparent weakness. Being some kind of a magnet for these folks, she's not the only one I've seen or heard about that does this.

I'm kind of looking for more answers about the mindset- like Wolfy's above. What brings people to these sad conclusions about their lives?

 

[Fluffywolf]

Also depends on if they are actually unhappy in their situation. A situation that would be unhappy for you doesn't need to be unhappy for another.

 

[Totenkindly]

Yes, ISFJ- great guess.

I have a lot I could say about the topic in general, being one of those "stuck" people for so many years myself... but as soon as you head into ISFJ territory, now you have someone who values duty, responsibility, and keeping things the same.

ISFJs tend to feel a lot of responsibility for situations and people. They often operate under the "should" rule, not the "what is possible" rule. It doesn't matter if it makes sense, it doesn't matter if it hurts, it doesn't matter if you're miserable; if there is a "should" involved, they'll refuse to budge.

I don't know how much of that is playing into it, but it could be part of it. I think it's easy for ISFJs to stay in bad relationships out of a sense of duty.

 

[KDude]

life is too short to spend solely with cats, but also too short to be all dismayed about other people not being "rockstar achievers" or something.

 

[King sns]

I have a lot I could say about the topic in general, being one of those "stuck" people for so many years myself... but as soon as you head into ISFJ territory, now you have someone who values duty, responsibility, and keeping things the same.

ISFJs tend to feel a lot of responsibility for situations and people. They often operate under the "should" rule, not the "what is possible" rule. It doesn't matter if it makes sense, it doesn't matter if it hurts, it doesn't matter if you're miserable; if there is a "should" involved, they'll refuse to budge.

I don't know how much of that is playing into it, but it could be part of it. I think it's easy for ISFJs to stay in bad relationships out of a sense of duty.

Hmm.. That sounds like it makes a lot of sense...
Do enlighten me about your experience though- I'm not talking about ISFJ's alone, I'm talking about all of these people.

 

[King sns]

life is too short to spend solely with cats, but also too short to be all dismayed about other people not being "rockstar achievers" or something.

No one's dismayed. And you don't have to be a "rockstar achiever" to be happy

 

[wolfy]

I used to have a paper run when I was a kid. I delivered papers on a bike. The bike had a flat tyre for three months, I used to just push it, I hated that flat tyre. But, who needs the bike when you get home?

 

[King sns]

I read some thread here. Some INTP saying he doesn't like being an INTP because he can't get motivation to get off the computer or get a job. I talked to someone else on here, remaining unnamed, (though some of you may know who I'm talking about), who can't go do anything with his life because he's pretty much too scared. Where are all these fear and excuses coming from? It all seems so arbitrary.

This trait also seems much more common with introverts, now that I think of it.

 

[OrangeAppled]

I'm kind of looking for more answers about the mindset- like Wolfy's above. What brings people to these sad conclusions about their lives?

If she's a Si-dom, I'd go with repeated failed efforts, seeing the same bad results over & over, not knowing how to make changes, fear of the unknown, etc.

It's going to vary a lot from person to person, as personal experiences & feelings are different.

 

[strawberries]

i am watching this thread - as i would like to learn more about this tendency in people. when i hate something my first instinct is to change/shake-up/move.

 

[King sns]

If she's a Si-dom, I'd go with repeated failed efforts, seeing the same bad results over & over, not knowing how to make changes, fear of the unknown, etc.

It's going to vary a lot from person to person, as personal experiences & feelings are different.

That's true.. With her, fear of unknown makes a lot of sense. She's kind of an OCD perfectionist. It's easier to be a perfectionist in a life that's predictable..

i am watching this thread - as i would like to learn more about this tendency in people. when i hate something my first instinct is to change/shake-up/move.

Me too.
We're not like this guy-

YouTube - Peter Gibbons - Worst day of my life

 

[wolfy]

Isn't the mindset as simple as the price of change or the perceived price of change is less or seen as less than the benefit of the change?

 

[KDude]

i don't think it has anything do with introversion. the most self-motivated person i've known was an isfj actually. in a way, she was annoying. i wanted her to chill out a bit. i mean, she'd go to school fulltime, took a little crap and slaved at the house she was staying at (foreign exchange student), cooked cakes for her friends, if she missed the bus, she'd walk miles and not call anyone, and she had big dreams. so... anyways.

 

[Kingfisher]

While having a few margaritas at a TGIFriday's after work one evening, I was hanging out with a table of folks who were all contractors from various industries that were building a new prison in a town about 45 minutes from here.

One of the fellows uttered a priceless pearl of wisdom toward the end of the evening.

A young man in the group was interested in one of the ladies, and she was interested in him, but not letting on that she was. As she and her friend left for the ladies room, the guy next to me told the young would-be ladies man the following: "You have to make the move big guy, if you don't act you will lose your opportunity."

The young guy said "I'll make a move when I feel it's the right time."

The other dude then said: "You are afraid of your greatness, not failure, everyone is."

I almost fell out, not only because the saying and the timing of the remark were classic, but because it is true.

FAILURE is easy to live with, there is no responsibility in managing its outcomes, but several free tickets to wallow in your own self pity.

Dealing with GREATNESS is a much more difficult matter. You must maintain your level of performance, you must not fall below a certain threshold, you must prove for more than a given moment that you have what it takes to be the man of the hour, the chosen one, the BBMFIC (Big Bad Motherfucker In Charge).

It is now my opinion that many people accept the role of the victim, in order to remain in the comfort of their failures, in order to forgoe trying to better themselves, in order be OK with barely maintaing the minimum acceptable level of performance that life places on them.

This type of thinking is a pity, for each moment we live is ours but once; each second that passses brings us one step closer to the grave. In my final moments the thoughts that will bring me solace are the great moments of my life, the times when I looked fate in the eye and forged an outcome of my choosing, the times when I rolled the dice on myself having what it took to make things happen and winning the bet. Those who embrace failure and mediocrity will pass into a different oblivion, unless they muster the courage to pursue their own greatness, and the fortitude to live with it once they attain it. umpyouup:

you said it man!! perfectly! you are absolutely right.

i think failure becomes a comfort and security for some people. when they fail they know what to expect, there is an element of "preserving the status quo" in it.

when someone always accepts failure and never reaches out for more, i think in some ways they see it as a way for them to beat failure -
if they never reach out for success, then in a way they never fail. it is like that saying: "if you always expect disappointment then you will never be disappointed."

 

[KDude]

you guys have to take into account that she's a diagnosed depressive. she could up her meds like shortnsweet said, but it's not as simple as that either. :\ if you've never seen it, it's not "sadness" or some downer mood that healthy people experience and get out of eventually. it shouldn't be left at though, i agree.

 

[kelric]

If she's a Si-dom, I'd go with repeated failed efforts, seeing the same bad results over & over, not knowing how to make changes, fear of the unknown, etc.

I think that OrangeAppled's quote can really apply to anyone -- it's not an "Si" thing, necessarily. Anyone, when faced with repeated failure to gain some control over their own circumstances, could I think respond in the same manner. IMHO, one of the, and probably *the* best indicator of quality mental health is the belief that you have some sort of control over your life. Some people just don't -- they certainly lack the belief, and may or may not lack the circumstances, objectively, to make a change. It's definitely a vicious cycle of downer-ism that saps the will. A positive-feedback loop of misery, of sorts.

Dealing with GREATNESS is a much more difficult matter. You must maintain your level of performance, you must not fall below a certain threshold, you must prove for more than a given moment that you have what it takes to be the man of the hour, the chosen one, the BBMFIC (Big Bad Motherfucker In Charge).

I don't agree with this -- not that it's impossible or that it never occurs, but that it's completely outside the scope of the psyche of the person who's "stuck in the rut" of failure and lack of control over their own life. People who are stuck in a cycle of failure and feel like their outcomes are independent of their own actions rarely, if ever, consider success at this scale. At *most*, it's a fear of *trying and failing again*... trying and failing being worse than simply not trying and clutching to a glimmer of hope that "at least I didn't fail again". Success, or especially greatness, is never even considered -- certainly not enough for it to be the major factor in fear.

I was reading a book that had a good piece on this a while back (digs through bookshelf to find it...). Here it is... Brain Rules, by John Medina. He has a section on stress, and the phenomenon of "learned helplessness". In it, he mentions a (horrific) experiment where a dog is sitting in an open cage, whimpering as it receives painful shocks. The dog doesn't get up, or make any move to get away, even though it would take minimal effort to walk out of the cage -- it's not restrained. A few days earlier, the dog *was* restrained, struggling and fighting to escape tie-down straps as the shocks were applied. But as the hours went on, and fighting and clawing to escape the shocks proved fruitless, the dog broke down and lost its will to fight back. Its will to fight back didn't return when it *could* have helped. It's a stress response, basically -- studies and works to try and help people who survived concentration camps showed that people show the same sort of responses.

Moral of that story is... optimism that you have control over your own circumstances, is absolutely essential. Stress responses can and will *own* you, otherwise. People have different thresholds for such things, and undoubtedly a good social support group helps a huge deal. But it's *not* something that everyone can just snap out of. The bitterness probably flows from that.

Having said that, Shorty, this is something that she (and her psychiatrist, if she's on medication), should work on. Sounds like you've already done what you can.