People who refuse to change their unhappy situations.

[geedoenfj]

Most of the time it's not a matter of logic, doing the right thing do not have to be logical..
Believe me if I can change my unhappy situation I won't hesitate..

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

I told her six months ago. I started therapy around the same time. And been working on myself diligently while trying to repair this disaster of a marriage.

I just need to try a little longer, I suspect. She is getting healthier. We were both badly messed up, which is why we found each other because we have similar issues.

This is very good. Regardless of the outcome, it provides an anchor for peace of mind to know that you left no stone unturned and genuinely tried everything. Most people second guess themselves after making a change because there is always good and bad in it. Doing everything you can imagine to do first to fix the situation either fixes the situation, or provides peace of mind knowing that there wasn't anything else you could have done.

 

[Oaky]

Mental limits of thought that avoid what is beyond one's comfort of expectancy and routine. We're limited by emotional barriers that we don't often realise therefore also avoid considering possibilities out of one's comforting perception.

 

[á´…eparted]

If someone refuses to change or try to change when they are in a tight spot, I pay them no mind and offer little to no advice.

I help those who help themselves.

 

[Lark]

In my experience people who present like this either have the insight but think they're out of options altogether and just stick to what they know or dont have insight and attribute their unhappy situations to things besides themselves.

I know a couple of people for sure who imagine "its not them" but not simply that "its not them", which you know, maybe its not, but that its "everyone else", I mean literally EVERYONE else.

How do you do that? I mean like you can have the misfortune to have one or two people around you who're lacking or upsetting or stressed out themselves and stress out everyone else too but you cant believe that EVERYONE is a cause of unhappiness to you.

 

[Mole]

Most of the time it's not a matter of logic, doing the right thing do not have to be logical..
Believe me if I can change my unhappy situation I won't hesitate..

Yes, largely we are creatures of habit, but when things go wrong, we are in the difficult situation of changing our habits.

It is a difficult situation because it takes 21 days of conscious effort to form a new habit. So for 21 days we must work consciously to form a new habit. It is far easier to slip back into the old habits, which are unconscious and require no effort.

I think the difficulty of changing a habit should be recognised and practical social support should be provided to those trying to form a new habit.

I think the process of forming a new habit should be discussed and talked about publicly. The process is largely mechanical and the more we know about it, the more we will be able to use it productively to form new habits.

 

[SearchingforPeace]

Yes, largely we are creatures of habit, but when things go wrong, we are in the difficult situation of changing our habits.

It is a difficult situation because it takes 21 days of conscious effort to form a new habit. So for 21 days we must work consciously to form a new habit. It is far easier to slip back into the old habits, which are unconscious and require no effort.

I think the difficulty of changing a habit should be recognised and practical social support should be provided to those trying to form a new habit.

I think the process of forming a new habit should be discussed and talked about publicly. The process is largely mechanical and the more we know about it, the more we will be able to use it productively to form new habits.

We are locked into autopilot scripts, programs, and trances. We don't even realize we are giving up our freedom to choose by acting on autopilot.

In theory, acting autopilot is helpful and healthy---car driving is much easier in autopilot mode than as a new driver overthinking the entire process.

Of course, if we can free ourselves from these scripts, we can still act without overthinking, being our true self.

 

[SiegfriedSchtauffen]

I think from the outside, people will see these unhappy people's situations as simple, but from their inside perspective, there are so many hurdles, it is overwhelming. It's not a stubborn refusal to change so much as a hopeless resignation. The worst thing you can do is offer a series of suggestions. In such situations, most people offer trite advice that is just patronizing to the unhappy person; likely, they have already thought of such things. What they need is someone to build them up & comfort them, so they have the confidence in themselves to find their own solutions.

I'd compare such a mental state to someone with a broken leg who wants to run a marathon. You could tell them they need to get up & start running if they ever want to be in shape, but that completely ignores the fact that their leg is broken and it's just plain going to take time & nurture to heal before they are strong enough to run again. It comes off as rather dense & insensitive to throw suggestions at them in the meantime. They probably know what they need to do anyway, so it's better to simply be supportive while they heal and encourage them when they do start to take some steps forward.

I definitely see how it can be draining to be there for someone emotionally and never see them make effort to improve though. At some point, if they feel like an emotional leech, then maybe it's time to cut them off. It could be a wake-up call...maybe.

I completely agree with the first paragraph but not with the rest. Most of these people are beyond a stage that is a downspiral and never heals. The problem isn't the state, it is the tendency of state change. With negative tendency the broken leg becomes just more and more broken with time.

I think someone who has total lack of interest in her environment should radically change/replace it. A huge goal can spark up the light but she has to be smart enough to realize that she can actually reach it otherwise the "unreachable dream" attracts even more disinterest/apathy.

Little silly ideas of people will unlikely to attract her (especially in her current environment based on OP's description) - in contrast they might be seen as a set of annoying useless expectations.

Long term apathy can be very very dangerous, it's better to leave it as soon as possible.

 

[Amargith]

In my experience people who present like this either have the insight but think they're out of options altogether and just stick to what they know or dont have insight and attribute their unhappy situations to things besides themselves.

I know a couple of people for sure who imagine "its not them" but not simply that "its not them", which you know, maybe its not, but that its "everyone else", I mean literally EVERYONE else.

How do you do that? I mean like you can have the misfortune to have one or two people around you who're lacking or upsetting or stressed out themselves and stress out everyone else too but you cant believe that EVERYONE is a cause of unhappiness to you.

Being stuck in an oppressive type of culture can certainly cause that. You're right that a lot of people generalise their dislike to include humanity after a trauma, in order to protect their own, already wounded ego, to protect themselves and that it often is without real cause.

But say you're stuck in a lower class type of environment, for instance, and you're trying to do something different than those around you. 9 out of 10, they will drag you down. It's part of the social, tribal dynamic where people get really really unhappy with you when you attempt to change your role in the pack, so to speak. You see this in people who try to free themselves from toxic environments such as cults, for instance. But it just as easily happens in a dysfunctional family. I've seen a really bright girl being told by her family that suuuure, she could go to college - only to demand she still do just about every household chore on the side, laugh at her when she was studying and get insulted when she enthusiastically shared something she'd learned and being told that she was feeling superior to them now that she was going to college. They did everything to undermine her and in the end, she complied with their wishes: she flunked out, believing she was just like her family - not smart enough to make it through college. Iow, she was indoctrinated with whatever everyone else in that family believed to be true, whether true or not. And of course ,once she saw the 'error of her ways', she was welcomed back with open arms - and handed the ironing board. I met these people, they were the nicest, hardest working, decent people you could imagine - but their ego was threatened by her having a chance to do more than they did with their lives and they didn't want to let her go out out of fear she would never return to the family once she was 'free'.

Imagine having to escape your entire culture - which does the same but on much larger scale. Think being told that all you're good for is household chores and obedience and you're too stupid for school. That it is normal for your husband to beat the crap out of you, according to your society, because he feels like it / you must've deserved it. Or to be a slave in another culture who firmly believes that slavery is part of your lot in life as you were captured during a war (like our civilisation once upon a time did). Wouldn't you hate all of humanity and believe they were capable of nothing else but cruelty? In these cases, the generalisation that everyone around you is wrong...well, is quite right.

 

[SiegfriedSchtauffen]

What you described is absolutely true and I think one has to see it with her own eyes to completely understand what's going on. This kind of drag force is very strong in a lower class environment. I still remember how envy my family was about my high school education even before I finished it (!!!) and their reaction was exactly as you described! The only difference in my case was that I didn't see the error of my ways and the result was extremely accumulated hatred between me and my family at the age of 16 with huge tension. We literally didn't speak, just lived in the same house.

I think the solution to change things is probably leaving everything behind. I can't imagine an incremental approach to solve this problem, hence my recommendation for a radical change with huge steps.

 

[Amargith]

Sounds about right. Just make sure you don't generalise your experience to the rest of humanity and keep an open mind about the people you meet to avoid making that mistake. It's a really easy trap to fall into and part of our self-preservation system (you see the same in other animals, dogs scared of fireworks who generalise it to include car backfires, for instance, and spend the rest of the year just as terrified as on the 4th of july and New Years). Otherwise you're in for a really angry, isolated and lonely life which would be a shame.

For that matter, those other people can also help you see your family in a different perspective and might give you a way to actually deal with them in a way that won't completely hurt/enrage you which you might want to take advantage of in a few years - or not, that's your call.

 

[Yama]

This thread might as well just be like @ me. I know what I need to do and I'm not willing to do any of it because I'm too stuck in my ways. I am best left ignored. There isn't any logic or reasoning, because it's illogical to begin with. And I think most people know this, and acknowledge this. It's about willpower. And it's really hard to generate willpower when you feel hopeless and alone. I've done it before, and dear god I don't know if I'm prepared to do it again. And again. And again. Fighting is too hard. It is easier to just learn to live with it. That isn't always the best option. I don't have the answers, I don't have a solution. Just a little insight.

 

[SiegfriedSchtauffen]

Sounds about right. Just make sure you don't generalise your experience to the rest of humanity and keep an open mind about the people you meet to avoid making that mistake. It's a really easy trap to fall into and part of our self-preservation system (you see the same in other animals, dogs scared of fireworks who generalise it to include car backfires, for instance, and spend the rest of the year just as terrified as on the 4th of july and New Years). Otherwise you're in for a really angry, isolated and lonely life which would be a shame.

For that matter, those other people can also help you see your family in a different perspective and might give you a way to actually deal with them in a way that won't completely hurt/enrage you which you might want to take advantage of in a few years - or not, that's your call.

Balancing according to a lot of aspects usually doesn't work. If you balance against everything then you get nowhere. You need raw power to implement a huge change that has more advantages than disadvantages. It is possible to calculate with the negative side effects even if they are huge.

I think my statement isn't too over generalizing, it applies to similar situations quite well. If you force basically two radically different cultures into as small place as a house it will lead to aggression. Aggression is quite typical in households where people are held together only by the roof especially if some of those people are seriously uneducated. I always tried to avoid those people around me but seriously uneducated lower class people will always find a way to attack you in unfair ways. I don't anymore hate them but living in such an environment for years could wake up my most aggressive self, sometimes I could have killed (I'm serious about this when it came to handling my alcoholist idiot brother who was much older than me). You have to be there to understand. Most people (like the person in your example) don't reach this point by avoiding confrontation and choosing a different route than me (joining the others around).

Actually the girl OP was talking about isn't in such a serious situation, her situation is much milder but the methods to reach higher are very similar. I doubt she's going to get help from the environment she doesn't like. Instead she will be continuously be bombarded with expectations that are best handled by ignoring them (apathy). I think one of the most effective ways is raw power: close your eyes and walk through the heavy blizzard alone thinking about the sunshine that is on the other end. To do so you need huge goals (dreams) and knowledge to see that these can be realized. If it seems that the rest of your life is shitty then you are already dead anyway, why not try something outrageous and bold instead of suffering in apathy?

Being lonely is part of the game but you can make friends when arriving to the right checkpoints.

 

[Mole]

This thread might as well just be like @ me. I know what I need to do and I'm not willing to do any of it because I'm too stuck in my ways. I am best left ignored. There isn't any logic or reasoning, because it's illogical to begin with. And I think most people know this, and acknowledge this. It's about willpower. And it's really hard to generate willpower when you feel hopeless and alone. I've done it before, and dear god I don't know if I'm prepared to do it again. And again. And again. Fighting is too hard. It is easier to just learn to live with it. That isn't always the best option. I don't have the answers, I don't have a solution. Just a little insight.

Yes, the only thing standing between us and a renewed way of life is 21 days of conscious effort.

But after 21 days our new way of life becomes effortless, we can take it for granted and enjoy the benefits.

 

[SiegfriedSchtauffen]

I know what I need to do and I'm not willing to do any of it because I'm too stuck in my ways.

You have at most some tiny uninteresting goals for which you are unwilling to do anything.

I am best left ignored. There isn't any logic or reasoning, because it's illogical to begin with. And I think most people know this, and acknowledge this.

Changing back and forth between lying yourself and pissing on yourself is a bad idea. You have self destructive thought patterns. People join the strong ones. You have to love yourself and some others will also join. Loving or not loving yourself is mostly the consequence of other things, you have to fix those and then you will respect yourself. You have to be strong alone too.

It's about willpower. And it's really hard to generate willpower when you feel hopeless and alone.

Willpower and hopelessness/loneliness are quite well separated. To generate willpower you have to *clearly* define things that motivate and demotivate you. Imagine what things you would regret on your deathbed. What kind of life you want to live. What kind of life do you want to avoid. It may sound stupid but it is really as simple as that and don't limit yourself. If you want to buy a helicopter and want to go to work with that you can do it.

I've done it before, and dear god I don't know if I'm prepared to do it again. And again. And again.

Sounds like a self lie that makes it easier to choose doing nothing. What have you used that willpower for? Willpower without any clear goals? I think these can only coexist.

Your goals have to be broken down to concrete enough actionable elements. If you end up with some abstract bullshit like "I decided to make my life better" then it is useless.

Fighting is too hard. It is easier to just learn to live with it. That isn't always the best option. I don't have the answers, I don't have a solution. Just a little insight.

Develop the strength to do bold things instead of the strength to suffer. Most people are conformists and do the latter. To fight you need something to fight for. Define interesting (large enough) goals without shadowing your thinking with limitations (like resources as time and money). Fighting for worthy goals is rather easy.

 

[Yama]

You have at most some tiny uninteresting goals for which you are unwilling to do anything.

Changing back and forth between lying yourself and pissing on yourself is a bad idea. You have self destructive thought patterns. People join the strong ones. You have to love yourself and some others will also join. Loving or not loving yourself is mostly the consequence of other things, you have to fix those and then you will respect yourself. You have to be strong alone too.

Probably the most realistic piece of advice I've received thus far. Or at least, identification of the core problem that I have to start with.

Willpower and hopelessness/loneliness are quite well separated. To generate willpower you have to *clearly* define things that motivate and demotivate you. Imagine what things you would regret on your deathbed. What kind of life you want to live. What kind of life do you want to avoid. It may sound stupid but it is really as simple as that and don't limit yourself. If you want to buy a helicopter and want to go to work with that you can do it.

Sounds like a self lie that makes it easier to choose doing nothing. What have you used that willpower for? Willpower without any clear goals? I think these can only coexist.

This is good practical advice. What should be done if one of my "demotivators" is something that can't be helped (out of my control)? What should I focus on there?

When I used willpower (short version): I was going to be held back in 8th grade because I had bad grades. Not because I was dumb, just lazy. They said I had to get my grades up fast. So I got them up to Cs within a week. Ever since then, all throughout high school and college, I have been a straight A student who accepts nothing less than perfection from themselves in their work. No one helped me, it was something I had to do by myself. But when I finally reached the top no one congratulated me either. It made me feel like the journey wasn't worth it in a sense, even though the reward still has its merits. Since then I have not had any clear goals yet.

Your goals have to be broken down to concrete enough actionable elements. If you end up with some abstract bullshit like "I decided to make my life better" then it is useless.

Develop the strength to do bold things instead of the strength to suffer. Most people are conformists and do the latter. To fight you need something to fight for. Define interesting (large enough) goals without shadowing your thinking with limitations (like resources as time and money). Fighting for worthy goals is rather easy.

Agreed about the abstract bullshit. What if it began as an abstraction but ended with a concrete example, like "I want my life to be happier by doing x, y, and z"? If I could think of those. I can try to come up with a goal to fight for, but nothing immediately comes to mind. If it's something I have to think really hard to figure out does that mean it can't be a worthy goal?

 

[SiegfriedSchtauffen]

This is good practical advice. What should be done if one of my "demotivators" is something that can't be helped (out of my control)? What should I focus on there?

Demotivators and motivators should be used as a push and pull forces respectively to navigate towards your goals. You can find endless number of "demotivators" to focus on but you should concentrate on those that push towards your goals and help you to break from the current undesired state. You have to ignore/accept the rest and maybe temporarily deal with. Focusing on demotivators you can not deal with is simple self destruction.

When I used willpower (short version): I was going to be held back in 8th grade because I had bad grades. Not because I was dumb, just lazy. They said I had to get my grades up fast. So I got them up to Cs within a week. Ever since then, all throughout high school and college, I have been a straight A student who accepts nothing less than perfection from themselves in their work. No one helped me, it was something I had to do by myself. But when I finally reached the top no one congratulated me either. It made me feel like the journey wasn't worth it in a sense, even though the reward still has its merits. Since then I have not had any clear goals yet.

Your goal was basically satisfying others. Having a not so good goal can be better than nothing in some cases but you have to do things for yourself whenever possible and you should be in a mindset that clearly defines why are you doing it for yourself. This is necessary to be able to enjoy the journey. Concluding later that something had some benefits is often only a low consolation prize for yourself. If you spend time and effort to do something for yourself you can enjoy the journey even during hard times and you will be much more satisfied with yourself and the result even if you fail reaching the goal. I've had very good grades till class 10, then I didn't care because I've realized that it's useless to invest so much energy in it to reach my goals. There will be no passion in what you do if you are satisfying others and executing instructions.

Agreed about the abstract bullshit. What if it began as an abstraction but ended with a concrete example, like "I want my life to be happier by doing x, y, and z"? If I could think of those. I can try to come up with a goal to fight for, but nothing immediately comes to mind. If it's something I have to think really hard to figure out does that mean it can't be a worthy goal?

A goal can be anywhere between abstract and very concrete. I think the more abstract goal you have, the larger it has to be in order to be actionable in the present. A huge goal (that may manifest itself as a set of well defined principles) is good because it decides a lot of your small decisions in the present automatically without having to think about it and you make the rest of the decisions with guidance. Without (huge) goals your present decisions don't matter, they have no weight and don't really lead anywhere.

For me huge goals alone are usually not enough. It is often necessary to think about my demotivators too. The difference between my (nagative) demotivators and (positive) motivators is much bigger than the difference between (zero) and my (positive) motivators. Actually my demotivators are a huge negative number while my motivators is only an OK-ish number. Then why not use my demotivators as a driving force? Doing so increases the value of my goals significantly. The size of demotivators and motivators can be much different in case of others but I think one should consider both. You are often *replacing* things in your life and you have to consider the replaced thing too not only the new one alone. The combination is often much more interesting.

Probably the biggest difficulty for people is imagining the journey as something enjoyable. The difference between a boring dormant life one in which you get large negative and positive impulses is huge. It's like the difference between being a dead and alive person. One has to taste the latter for him/herself to know what I'm talking about. I'm not saying that having introverted silent periods is bad, it is bad only if you spend it with empty suffering. I've worked a lot to eliminate most of that and I'm on my way to eliminate the rest but it requires me to get some bigger things done (like eliminating working for others completely) - I have my goals defined just like the path between the present and the future. You don't have to see the end of the path towards to goal but you have to see a long enough part of it that is connected to the present. You can decide later what's next or you can change your path if you change your mind.

 

[ceecee]

People who ask for advice, sometimes constantly, with no intention of ever taking it are far worse than people who just won't leave or attempt to fix an unhappy situation.

 

[GIjade]

Copy pasted from my thread:

One of my friends posts stuff like this on facebook.

As I get older, I like people less and less. Cant wait to get home and be away from people. My babies will cheer me up. What would I do without them.

She works in retail and makes minimum wage. She refuses to change her life around to make herself happier. Her "babies" that she is referring to are cats. She's Catholic- The kind that hates everyone else and their actions. She's a vegetarian and imposes her vegetarian beliefs on everyone around her. (Hates barbecues because it has meat, etc.)



She was my best friend in highschool. Our upbringings were similar. She has a clinical depression, doesn't want to up her meds or do anything about it. When I say, "go get an application for somewhere else" she says, "The grass is not greener on the other side." I feel like we're speaking two different languages. I can't stand this trait in people.

Lookin' for a fight, bitch?

 

[great_bay]

Holy fuck, people are being so hard to people who self-sabotage themselves. Self-sabotage can be explain by neuroscience. Scientist scanned the brain of people who self-sabotage themselves and they noticed that their brain is different from normal people. People who self-sabotage themselves who have poor control over their choices due to stress. An example from poor control from stressed would be a person who overeats because they can't control their brain.

I really don't know what to do in this situation. Orangeappled said just to heal the person by being supportive which appears the right course. I might just avoid the person. Destructive behavior by harassing others has to be the worst form of sabotage. Being an alcoholic has to be a better because they're not really hurting other people and only themselves.