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Critique of "Positive Thinking"

tcda

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Worth watching.

[YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5um8QWWRvo&feature=player_embedded#!"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5um8QWWRvo&feature=player_embedded#![/YOUTUBE]
 

miss fortune

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that's an issue that I always find incredibly annoying... and to top it off I used to work in a sales office where we got slapped in the face with a "if you beleive it, it'll happen" ideal every fucking day :thelook:

not to mention that the man is a total beleiver in it and tends to tell me that I should just think positively every time a job lead doesn't pan out :rolleyes:

Fuck that... I've been pretty rediculously optimistic about the world and humanity since I could first SPEAK and am constantly disappointed and surprised because bad things keep happening... therefore I think that it's all bullshit that's just designed to make people feel better about the world and themselves :thumbdown:
 

angelhair45

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Okay, I really tried to sit through the whole video, but couldn't. I heard about half and I can identify with her thought process as I have felt like that before. I don't believe in The Secret, Name it and Claim it, or that I can create a new reality for myself.

I don't think having a positive attitude will necessarily change the world around you (but it can sometimes). Having a positive attitude helps you see that in spite of the shit you can still be happy. Life can still be good. Really it's about recognizing the hope and potential in most situations.

I don't think telling someone to have a positive attitude is the answer. I can get a REALLY pessimistic view, hell I was suicidal once upon a time, but I have learned that my perception IS everything. Even if it's not reality how I see it is my reality. So if I can find it within myself to see the positive side then everything is different for ME, but I can't change it for anyone else.

I don't think a positive attitude stops bad things from happening, it just helps some of us deal with the bad things that do happen.
 

tcda

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Okay, I really tried to sit through the whole video, but couldn't. I heard about half and I can identify with her thought process as I have felt like that before. I don't believe in The Secret, Name it and Claim it, or that I can create a new reality for myself.

I don't think having a positive attitude will necessarily change the world around you (but it can sometimes). Having a positive attitude helps you see that in spite of the shit you can still be happy. Life can still be good. Really it's about recognizing the hope and potential in most situations.

I don't think telling someone to have a positive attitude is the answer. I can get a REALLY pessimistic view, hell I was suicidal once upon a time, but I have learned that my perception IS everything. Even if it's not reality how I see it is my reality. So if I can find it within myself to see the positive side then everything is different for ME, but I can't change it for anyone else.

I don't think a positive attitude stops bad things from happening, it just helps some of us deal with the bad things that do happen.


Of course. It's a shame you didn't watch the whole video, because she then says that "pessimism can be just as much a delusion as optimism". i.e. the video is not "an argument in favour pessimism and against all optimism".

I don't disagree with anything you say, I doubt the person who made the video does either. :)
 

angelhair45

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Of course. It's a shame you didn't watch the whole video, because she then says that "pessimism can be just as much a delusion as optimism". i.e. the video is not "an argument in favour pessimism and against all optimism".

I don't disagree with anything you say, I doubt the person who made the video does either. :)

I'll finish it later when I'm in a calmer mood. Then I can feel stupid for saying what I said. :blush:
 

Andy

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I agree with the points intis video. I'm also impressed by how well the person doing the drawing got it in synch with the speach!
 

spin-1/2-nuclei

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I find the best approach to life events of any kind is to keep a neutral attitude until the actual nature of the situation can be assessed. I don't expect good or bad things.. and I always fully expect to have to try very hard at everything that I do... I typically stay away from things that aren't worth doing or aren't worth taking any associated risks.. beyond that.. there really isn't any control over what happens to you in life.. If you always try your best and do your best you can't do anymore and it is surprisingly easy to live with things in life - in my opinion anyway - when that attitude is taken....

Horrible things sometimes happen and often there isn't anything that could have been done to prevent it or to overcome it... all you can do if something horrible happens to you is try your best to overcome it at the time and prevent reoccurrence in the future.. beyond that there really isn't much that can be done... having a positive attitude cannot prevent all tragedies anymore than a negative attitude can cause them... I think there are situations where being negative or pessimistic can lead to limited effort being applied to the situation and thus a bad outcome results save the interference of luck.. the same can be said for being overly positive in a situation and not taking proper precautions and thus a bad outcome results save luck...

but if you've done your best and you're still in the middle of a shit storm all you can do is ride it out and do your best with whatever is left standing at the end... more than that is not really possible...

so, for me what I do rather than telling myself I'll definitely get this or I'll definitely do that... I say I'll do the best I can do with whatever hand I am given at the time - and more than that I can't do....

at least that is what works for me I obviously can't speak for everyone..
 

Mole

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Mental Hygiene

But whatever you do, don't think bad thoughts about MBTI.

The Thought Police are vigilant so the best thing to do is to replace your bad thoughts with good thoughts. I mean that is what a good person would do.

Just think to yourself that MBTI is there simply to help us understand ourselves.

And remember four million Americans do the MBTI test every year, and it is administered by American Corporations and the American Military so it must be good, otherwise they wouldn't use it.

And of course they export it to the rest of the world who see it as a way of becoming as rich as America.

But essentially it is a moral issue. Only you can choose whether your head is full of good thoughts or bad thoughts.

And the reality is that good people have good thoughts and the bad people have bad thoughts.

But it is even more serious than that, for bad thoughts lead to thought crime. It starts off with just one bad thought now and then but snowballs into fully fledged thought crime.

What would your parents think if you were convicted? What would your friends think?

This is why it is so important to police your own thoughts - for once they get out of control, who knows where they might lead?

Yes, it is simply a matter of mental hygiene.
 
T

ThatGirl

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First off I think I have fallen in love with the cartoonist.....

Second I completely agree, I was ready to post a counter argument, but she made the point in the last 20 seconds of the video.

Positive thinking, when you are excited people get excited with you. So this creates less resistance.....look at the con man. He never provides anything of relevance but people get caught in the enthusiasm. But to think that one would ever create a concrete reaction through positive thinking alone is ridiculous. Basically you can create momentum, enthusiasm, but it is then up to you to do something with it.

Though, most of what she hit on is not a new concept at all, haven't people always shot the messenger?
 

Virtual ghost

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This is one of the main reason why many people dislike me in real life. (since I am pretty critical and I give off negative vibe)
 

Coriolis

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When positive action keeps us from recognizing the facts, it is counterproductive. When it motivates us to take action and rally the efforts of others, it is useful.

AO: if your criticisms are based in objective fact and accompanied by helpful suggestions, or especially questions (e.g. "Have you considered . . . ?) you may receive better reactions. On the other hand, some people cannot handle criticism, however constructive or kindly delivered.
 
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uumlau

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A Characterization of Positive Thinking

This isn't a critique, this is a characterization of "positive thinking" as self-delusion. This is fine insofar as "The Secret" and the whole notion that positive thinking somehow magically (or magnetically or quantum mechanically) makes things work out: such notions are, indeed, silly.

It neglects the reason positive thinking is often given as advice: people need it. Yes, you need skills and experience, not just positive thinking, to get a job. But there are lots of people with the former, but not the latter, and for those people, it is actually true that "all they need" is positive thinking.

I'm sure that, yes, the speaker, if confronted with this criticism, would agree with my point, more or less, but I doubt she'd take the criticism to heart. She speaks as one who resents "positive thinking" for causing people to make stupid decisions, for not being realistic. Positive thinking isn't delusional, per se: people are delusional or not, positively or negatively. There's nothing especially more realistic about negative self-delusion.

The point of positive thinking is that when one is thinking realistically, one needs to think in terms of what one can do, not only what one cannot do. If someone is giving you the advice to think positively, the advice is not intended to tell you to "pretend it will all be OK," but rather to get up and take action rather than letting negative thoughts cripple you into inaction.
 

tcda

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This isn't a critique, this is a characterization of "positive thinking" as self-delusion. This is fine insofar as "The Secret" and the whole notion that positive thinking somehow magically (or magnetically or quantum mechanically) makes things work out: such notions are, indeed, silly.

It neglects the reason positive thinking is often given as advice: people need it. Yes, you need skills and experience, not just positive thinking, to get a job. But there are lots of people with the former, but not the latter, and for those people, it is actually true that "all they need" is positive thinking.

I'm sure that, yes, the speaker, if confronted with this criticism, would agree with my point, more or less, but I doubt she'd take the criticism to heart. She speaks as one who resents "positive thinking" for causing people to make stupid decisions, for not being realistic. Positive thinking isn't delusional, per se: people are delusional or not, positively or negatively. There's nothing especially more realistic about negative self-delusion.

The point of positive thinking is that when one is thinking realistically, one needs to think in terms of what one can do, not only what one cannot do. If someone is giving you the advice to think positively, the advice is not intended to tell you to "pretend it will all be OK," but rather to get up and take action rather than letting negative thoughts cripple you into inaction.

Of course within a very limited parameter, an individual could accept all the limitations arond them, adapt themselves to them, work very hard, hope for quite a bit of luck, and they might always stay in work etc. But there will always be many who do this, who don't get any such reward.

For example mass unemployment is a real problem. There is much less employment on offer than people who need to work. Wages are going down, people are getting poorer, and having to work longer for less money, less stability, less rights, and a lower (if at all) pension at the end.

The point she was makign was that this won't be solved by a positive attitude. A few individuals may be able to adapt better than others -so what? The fundamental problems can only be solved by collective action. The idoelogy of "positive thinking" is what the capitalist media proposes as its alternative solution to collective action.

This doesn't mean that one should not have a positive attitude, rather she is opposing the argument that thoughts alone can overcome material limitations - a truly metaphysical idea.
 

miss fortune

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that kind of reminds me of an episode of Wife Swap I watched a while back where the wife in question was a self help guru and the family she was placed with had an unemployed dad... she kept telling him "think positively and a job will come to you!" and he kept griping that he had tried that for a good while and it didn't work, so he was just going to work his ass off until he found a job :)
 

durentu

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The only thing that positive thinking does it to help us to be more opportunistic towards the goals we set for ourselves. Anything outside of that is trying to slip one past you.

Goal: million dollars
bad positive thinking vs good positive thinking

bad: I will sit and meditate and attract money towards me.
good: I will prepare my mind to find opportunities towards my goal

bad: Entrusting the universe to supply you with your goal
good: Entrusting yourself to supply you with your goal

bad: poor mindset
good: rich mindset

bad: the secret
good: think and grow rich

bad: shifting responsibility to the universe
good: shifting responsibility to yourself

bad: positive psychology as a religion
good: positive psychology as a tool

bad: driven by intentions
good: driven by results

refs:
All of the Bernard Pivot Questionnaire answers from 'Inside the Actor's Studio'
http://www.getrichslowly.org/blog/2006/11/29/secrets-of-the-millionaire-mind/
http://www.richdadwisdom.com/2010/04/the-mindset-poor-middle-class-rich/
book: The Millionaire Next Door
Napoleon Hill's Think and Grow Rich
Money poll: How well-off Americans think - Oct. 10, 2002
Rich People VS. Poor People (How they think?) | CA2020: Create Abundance Business Community
Steven Covey's 7 Habits of Effective People
Brian Tracey's Eat that Frog
Brian Tracey on youtube
Kaizen Principle/lean manufacturing
 

EcK

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It's not about 'positive' it's about 'active' and 'efficient' thinking.
What works works.
Anything else just shows the person's intellectual limitations and/or strong zones of proficiency (so efficiency in that case and perhaps high relative cost and low incentives to change the strategy/tactics/frame)
 

Southern Kross

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I loved this video. I have watched this woman speak on youtube before and really connected with what she said. Also the cartoon was fantastic.

I have always found this 'positive thinking' talk extremely galling. When people start lecturing me about this stuff I actually become rather angry. And for some reason I become intentionally contrary and deseprately want to be as negative and unpleasant as possible. Maybe its because I can't stand anyone lecturing me about what I should think or feel, especially when they back it up with psuedo-scientific, hoodoo bullsh*t.

I certainly do believe having a good attitude is very important to get by in life but I don't think it can magically solves all your problems. It is particularly disturbing how this is ideology is used to excuse, if not justify, the willful neglect and disregard of the poor and disadvantaged. It is merely a variation on the Victoria attitude that they somehow the poor deserve their meager lot and the ruling classes merit their wealth and power over them. :dont:

that's an issue that I always find incredibly annoying... and to top it off I used to work in a sales office where we got slapped in the face with a "if you beleive it, it'll happen" ideal every fucking day :thelook:

not to mention that the man is a total beleiver in it and tends to tell me that I should just think positively every time a job lead doesn't pan out :rolleyes:

Fuck that... I've been pretty rediculously optimistic about the world and humanity since I could first SPEAK and am constantly disappointed and surprised because bad things keep happening... therefore I think that it's all bullshit that's just designed to make people feel better about the world and themselves :thumbdown:
:BangHead: Ugh. What a nightmare. That crappy sales discourse they try to brainwash people with completely drives me up the friggin wall. I don't know anyone can STAND more than 5 minutes of it. You clearly have a greater forbearance than me. What really bugs me about it is how the basically drub into people that their entire self-worth as a human being is directly related to how much they sell. If you don't sell it means you are somehow defective and worthless and basically you might as well kill yourself. :doh:
 

Mole

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The Lucky Country

somehow the poor deserve their meager lot and the ruling classes merit their wealth and power over them. :dont:

Yes, it is a variation of the doctrine of predestination where wealth is proof of God's favour.

Yes, it is the doctrine of Puritanism, the ideology which founded a whole country and is now taken for granted.

Of course we were not founded by Puritanism. We were founded by the Enlightenment and seek the greatest good for the greatest number.

This why we are called the Lucky Country.
 

Unkindloving

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This was quite good.
My personal version of positive thinking is to accept negativity in a positive light. People tend to either dwell on negativity or brush it under the rug to commence positivity. I've survived and advised on embracing and assessing bad situations, but recognizing that they provide experience and knowledge for future endeavors.
Positive thinking shouldn't be feigned, it should be attained. The illusion of shiny, happy faces isn't what needs to be attained, because it is only an illusion.

Cartoonist love fest- Vader references and Bush's White House la la land. :cheese:
 
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