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Creative minds 'mimic schizophrenia'

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Why?
Does this mean that all the normal people in the real world, are actually fuckt up?
 

Skyward

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*didnt read many posts*

Does this mean that all the normal people in the real world, are actually fuckt up?

No, they're the vast majority. Because of that, us creative people are fsck't up, or at least considered weird.


I believe it. On my bad days I can't think. My thoughts splinter while I read them, so I just hold onto what few thoughts are solid. Even if they're bad ones that just ruin my mood. I read an anecdote from a schizophrenic and it clicked in my head, like, 'I GET it!'

Good days I'm more like Se ADD, but I need to check out more on schizophrenia. Hnn, maybe that's why I'm so interested in mental disorders?



-Victor is the bad aftertaste of a good thread. It adds depth. I just prefer Diogenes.

EDIT: Huh, the part that says creativity leads to an increased rick of bipolar disorder seems interesting, since I think I have a minor form of it. (Yes you're right Victor, but hey, humans are humans.)
 

Jonny

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I'm pretty crazy, but I'm not sure quite how creative I am.
 

Vasilisa

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In my opinion schizophrenia, more than other mental illnesses, all of which the psychiatric community tend to regard as mostly chemical in nature, is an illness induced and fostered by cultural/communicative factors. I think, as you kind of do raga, that schizophrenics and people who suffer from some other mental illnesses, do share some of the same characteristics (biological and personal) that highly-creative people do - namely, that they are extremely sensitive and receptive to their environment, and qualify it differently from how the majority of people do. I talk about this in one of my posts maybe one or two pages back.

Respectfully, I am not taking away from this article any conclusion stating that schizophrenics are extremely sensitive and receptive to their environment. It seems to be saying that the signals the thalamus are less filtered in schizophrenics, as are those of creative people. I'm not sure if schizophrenics actually are so sensitive and receptive, if only because they may be frequently distracted from their environment by their hallucinations.

You know whose case is instructive and fascinating to me personally? The case of January Schofield, schizophrenic, Age 7. Its hard to argue that her case was induced by cultural/communicative factors since there is so much compelling evidence that she was born schizophrenic. From what I know about her case, she shows a very high IQ. But back to the context of the article, for me, its interesting to think about a schizophrenic like Jani with her childhood imagination but so enormously amplified and made real. It makes it a little easier for me to fathom what their world is like. My heart goes out to the children like Jani and their families.

Jani's Journey
Jani's at the mercy of her mind article
Inside the World of Childhood Schizophrenia Video
Young schizophrenic at her mind's mercy video
Hushing the intruders in her mind video
 

Arthur Schopenhauer

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Its interesting to think about a schizophrenic like Jani with her childhood imagination but so enormously amplified and made real. It makes it a little easier for me to fathom what their world is like.

Watching schizophrenics is saddening to me. Especially when their medicine is ruining them. Saddening.
 

Vasilisa

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^ I know, its really diabolical that the family's choices are to give her the hardcore anti-psychotic drugs, that are admittedly toxic and have harsh side effects or pretty much institutionalize her where they might just do the same.
 

chooi

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Respectfully, I am not taking away from this article any conclusion stating that schizophrenics are extremely sensitive and receptive to their environment. It seems to be saying that the signals the thalamus are less filtered in schizophrenics, as are those of creative people.

That's why it's my opinion. :wink:
I wasn't talking about the article specifically. As you know, topics tend to change as more posts get added to them. But on that note, I would think a tendency to receive unfiltered signals to the thalamus would make it more likely that you would be sensitive to stimuli around you, i.e. the environment. And I include culture with environment. Perhaps "receptive" was not a good word choice, since that implies a conscious taking-in of information. By sensitive, I don't mean being in tune with your environment. I mean being "aware" and not necessarily consciously. You become so viscerally "aware" that it's almost difficult to control and that manifests itself in strange behavior/illness and creative, artistic masterpieces.

Of course, mental illnesses are complicated, with schizophrenia being one of the most complex. And there are obviously different types of schizophrenia. I don't claim that what I think explains all bouts of schizophrenia. Nor do I think that any one theory should be exclusively used to explain schizophrenia, as many people are wont to do, which leads to the same prescriptions for mostly everybody, regardless of the context surrounding the patient's case. But if this is true for even some of the cases, then that means that some people can be helped without drugs, and that schizophrenia could be prevented in some instances. That seems like a good scenario to me. Whether it can be applied is another question...

In any event, I do believe that it's somewhat of a negotiation between the psychological approach and others (I'm an anthropology major) . Some of the context for where my opinion was formed can be found on pg. 3 of this thread, which is turning out to be a very informative one. Haven't yet, due to sleepiness, but I'll be sure to check out Jani's story.
 

chooi

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Also, I'm not saying that all schizos and artists have this characteristic predisposition. I just assume, and I have no "scientific" backing for this, that these characteristics are more common among these individuals.
 

chooi

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^ I know, its really diabolical that the family's choices are to give her the hardcore anti-psychotic drugs, that are admittedly toxic and have harsh side effects or pretty much institutionalize her where they might just do the same.

This is also a problem I think. While I do agree that there are plenty of individuals, doctors and companies doing work for the greater good, people tend to forget that the drug industry isn't necessarily a medical/health-oriented one. I know that statement might sound stupid, but it's a business first and foremost. Alternative medicine and approaches tend to get thrown to the wayside, either because they are "too labor-intensive" (counseling, etc.) or they don't make enough money.

Or they're illegal, partly because of the reason above. Psychedelics, anyone? Once again, not claiming a cure or an answer simply an alternative approach.
 

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I have friends who have schizophrenia. Their behavior is unpredictable. They push people away from them with that unpredictable behavior. Their medication doesn't always work and it has terrible side effects. Sometimes it seems to me as if the doctors are clueless about how to treat their illness.To me, it seems as if they are treating their patients like lab rats. One of my friends, though, seems to have been given the right medication and she is functional, though with many health problems. She is very bright but limited in what she can do. It is very sad.
 

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This is a belief of 19th Century Romanticism and has no basis in fact.

And when longitudinal studies were done to test this belief, it was found there is no link between creativity and madness, but there is a link between creativity and mental health.


Because madness is not a term so commonly used anymore?

I think we both know the link between madness/mental health and genius has been debated for much longer than you are offering.

There is this quote

"Scientists have for the first time found powerful evidence that genius may be linked with madness.
Speculation that the two may be related dates back millennia, and can be found in the writings of Aristotle, Plato and Socrates. Aristotle once claimed that "there is no great genius without a mixture of madness", but the scientific evidence for an association has been weak – until now. "


from this link... You don't have to be bipolar to be a genius – but it helps - Science, News - The Independent
 

chooi

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You know whose case is instructive and fascinating to me personally? The case of January Schofield, schizophrenic, Age 7. Its hard to argue that her case was induced by cultural/communicative factors since there is so much compelling evidence that she was born schizophrenic. From what I know about her case, she shows a very high IQ. But back to the context of the article, for me, its interesting to think about a schizophrenic like Jani with her childhood imagination but so enormously amplified and made real.

Jani's case still doesn't have me completely convinced. I also believe that she was born schizophrenic. I also believe that she, by way of her IQ, is a genius, which says something for the article in the OP (as well as what Victor claims about ideas of illness and genius). However, I'm not so sure that these unfiltered signals from whatever sources haven't had an effect. If communication, and I use the term in the systems theory sense, not necessarily language, didn't induce her schizophrenia, than I believe that it could have fostered it. Plus there is the added confusion caused by her intellect. One would assume that being able to learn at an accelerated pace (one of the articles says she was speaking grammatically correct sentences at 18 months), that not only was Jani viscerally "affected" by her environment, she also understood it to a great extent, though this may be masked by her schizophrenia. I do agree with your understanding that she probably has her imagination amplified, but imagination itself has at least some grounding in reality.

For example, and this is a shot in the dark, her imaginary friend "400", an orange tabby cat, corresponds to "The Orange Cat" of Pasadena, which is close to UCLA where she began to receive treatment. Of course, this probably doesn't have any significance, but it is merely an example of what COULD have significance.

For an example of culture having an effect on and of schizophrenia, there is the example of Nancy Scheper-Hughers study in Ireland. Admittedly, some of the cases were misdiagnoses, but that still doesn't account for the greater rate of schizophrenia in Ballybran. Also, this was a few decades ago, so it isn't the most current study. This thread has caused me to want to look into some more material concerning culture and schizophrenia, so I've just started looking at a more current multidisciplinary approach spearheaded by anthropologist Janis Hunter Jenkins.

And as I said previously, there are different cases, and could be different causes from person to person.
 

chooi

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Because madness is not a term so commonly used anymore?

I think we both know the link between madness/mental health and genius has been debated for much longer than you are offering.

Agreed. As if history began with western philosophy in the 19th century. Bit arrogant, don't you think? Let's not limit the conversation solely to western experience, either. To some cultures, "madness" is a necessity. Ever hear of heyokas (actually this is maybe more western than western). It's funny how in a different time and place, those who heard voices were listening to God or conversing with the spirits, but are loonies in another. Of course, this isn't the same thing as mental illness, but it is something to consider.
 

OrangeAppled

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I don't see how looking at the world differently & having some odd behavior makes a person mentally ill....I can see how people may view such a person as eccentric, but that does not mean they are not mentally healthy. It may just be society creating narrow constraints for what is normal.

I also tend to think that people romanticize mental illness, especially in the case of the tortured artist - it makes a good story to have the artist be something of a "Byronic hero". In reality, the illness is more of a hindrance than a aid in being creative.

Most of the people I have known who have descended into mental illness were very intelligent and/or talented creatives before, but now it's wasted. Mental illness did not make them creative, rather it robbed them of their ability to use their talents.

My own personal speculation is that sensitive people tend to be creative (ie. enneagram 4s) and that emotional sensitivity may make one more prone to a breakdown. Maybe it's not a direct link so much as a higher propensity due to a more delicate temperament. For instance, looking at the way the ego collapses for different enneagram types, it seems that some collapse in a way that will be obviously a breakdown to others, where some will still seem acceptable to society - maybe because one way is more "common".

This statement from the article kind of leads to what I'm thinking:
"Creativity is uncomfortable. It is their dissatisfaction with the present that drives them on to make changes."
 

chooi

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For some reason I feel as if I'm talking to myself in this thread....maybe I'm the one who's going crazy...
 

Betty Blue

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Agreed. As if history began with western philosophy in the 19th century. Bit arrogant, don't you think? Let's not limit the conversation solely to western experience, either. To some cultures, "madness" is a necessity. Ever hear of heyokas (actually this is maybe more western than western). It's funny how in a different time and place, those who heard voices were listening to God or conversing with the spirits, but are loonies in another. Of course, this isn't the same thing as mental illness, but it is something to consider.

Yes i was just thinking of native American Indians, it reminded me of reading Carlos Casteneda's "Journey to Ixtlan" (Amoungst others of his).
But of course this is also not exclusive to Native Americans either, many ancient tribes had behaivours and beliefs that the "civilised" west consider both insane and barbaric.
 

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Yes i was just thinking of native American Indians, it reminded me of reading Carlos Casteneda's "Journey to Ixtlan" (Amoungst others of his).
But of course this is also not exclusive to Native Americans either, many ancient tribes had behaivours and beliefs that the "civilised" west consider both insane and barbaric.

Carlos Casteneda has been shown to be a complete fraud.

And many tribal beliefs and practices are barbaric.
 

Betty Blue

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Carlos Casteneda has been shown to be a complete fraud.

And many tribal beliefs and practices are barbaric.

And many are not.

I found Castenedas books fascinating but that is not to say that i believed them to be non-fiction. However i was reminded of Native American Indian's beliefs not Casteneda himself.

I also find western civilisation barbaric at times.
 
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Mole

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And many are not.

I also find western civilisation barbaric at times.

Tribal practices are sexist, racist and xenophobic based on slavery, the subjugation of women and the abuse of children.

And tribal beliefs are based on ignorance of the world and themselves. Their beliefs are superstitious, cruel and out of touch with reality.

Unfortunately Western civilization romanticises tribalism. But the only place Romantic tribalism ever existed is in the minds of the Romantic West.

The only important thing about tribalism is how to get out of it. And the answer is surprisingly simple - literacy.

But literacy requires that every child be compelled by law to leave their family and tribe and go to a special institution called, "School", to learn to read and write.

Unfortunately you only get universal law after you get universal literacy - so for tribalists, this is Catch 22.

Fortunately for the tribalists the universally literate West is forcing literacy upon them.

The illiterate world is confronting the literate world and we see this starkly in Afghanistan.

And the illiterate world will only be overcome by force majeure, just as our children are forced to go to school.

But of course the facts of life are too difficult to bear without romanticising them.
 

Betty Blue

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Tribal practices are sexist, racist and xenophobic based on slavery, the subjugation of women and the abuse of children.

And tribal beliefs are based on ignorance of the world and themselves. Their beliefs are superstitious, cruel and out of touch with reality.

Unfortunately Western civilization romanticises tribalism. But the only place Romantic tribalism ever existed is in the minds of the Romantic West.

The only important thing about tribalism is how to get out of it. And the answer is surprisingly simple - literacy.

But literacy requires that every child be compelled by law to leave their family and tribe and go to a special institution called, "School", to learn to read and write.

Unfortunately you only get universal law after you get universal literacy - so for tribalists, this is Catch 22.

Fortunately for the tribalists the universally literate West is forcing literacy upon them.

The illiterate world is confronting the literate world and we see this starkly in Afghanistan.

And the illiterate world will only be overcome by force majeure, just as our children are forced to go to school.

But of course the facts of life are too difficult to bear without romanticising them.


It's exactly this kind of belief (or the pretence of it) that has led to hundreds, if not thousands of years of hostile take overs of lands. Of course the real reasons, more obviously in earlier history were simply to own the land and it's properties- diamonds, spices,oil, fertile land etc. Also for strageic millitary purposes. Of course other reasons too but for a large part the reasons i have mentioned.
 
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