Strange Indifference

[Little_Sticks]

I've noticed something strange about people in general in this society nowadays. It seems that because the general population has accepted a certain mentality that life is supposed to be tough and painful if someone decides to voice their discomfort with being in pain in some way that other people think it is okay to put them down for it - to toughen them up because that is how to handle life best (in their eyes).

The problem with this is that by doing so they propagate the life is tough and painful reality and 'make it worse' with time. They don't realize they are hurting themselves in the process by accepting this reality and assuming that is the only control they have over anything, thus strengthening and maintaining such a viewpoint. So why do people feel the need to act so stupid? Is it a resentment that if someone has to go through something difficult they feel others should as well?

Of course, I think overall this idea is a bad one over time for a society to adopt and that cooperation between people becomes important in this case, but what do you think?

 

[Saslou]

Is it wrong/right/good/bad to tell someone their perception is wrong? And according to who is their perception wrong?

Their point of view is valid due to their experiences in life.

People will grow and see the bigger picture only when they are ready, and not a moment to soon.

I know where you are coming from though. I deal with people who face minor/great barriers that stop them from seeking employment and it is saddening. They limit their own potential.

One person can't change the world .. But hopefully they can make a slight difference. That's the idea anyway.

 

[Halla74]

You make an interesting point.

The only time I can recall it common for a person to be "berated by surrounding others" is when they are WHINING.

Now, to the person commiting the whining, they are in pain, but to the others surrounding them, that might have experienced the same thing the person is whining about once or more before, their default inclination is:

There are times when my kids whine, and they are told to get over it, and there are other times when they are genuinely upset about something, and they are offered support and guidance through the issue.

The big question appears to be, is it possible for society at large to agree on a common list of issues that are OK to vocally express dismay about in public?

I honestly don't want society to turn any more rude than it already is, but at the same time I don't want everyone whining about everything. The key for each of us individually is to know who we can trust in expressing the trials we are facing in our lives at a given moment in time...

 

[Phantonym]

I realized it at a pretty early age and I've never really been able to understand it. It's like people need this hierarchy or steps that everybody has to take in order to be seen as "fit" for society. I've often asked myself who makes progress, is it the cynics that only seem to be able to whine and let their days pass as usual or the idealists that dare to do something about things? The problem is that the cynics have already made themselves a comfy place and all they have now is to feel miserable in their disillusionment over the past things done or left undone. And the idealists have to pass through that obstacle course they've been set up for and through the process most of them become disillusioned as well. So, yes, I think it is resentment, the mentality that everybody has to pay their dues.

 

[Little_Sticks]

Is it wrong/right/good/bad to tell someone their perception is wrong? And according to who is their perception wrong?

...

No, of course not. But if that is all a person is told and they are still struggling with the same issues then continuing to do so will only lead to them thinking they can't trust anyone and might go to drugs, alcohol, and other things as a way to deal with their solitude. And they will most likely not think it is okay to accept anyone else expressing similar problems, especially if they learned to accept being mistreated. This is what makes everything worse because people are willing to accept certain things since they feel they can't do anything about them. The thing that comes to mind right now is 'sweat shops' as the best example.

So in other words sometimes it is better to compromise own's own viewpoint or position a little to better accommodate a person with potentially totally different needs. This is hard for everyone to do though because it requires someone to gamble with what they may not fully understand since everyone has different values and philosophies of what constitutes a most fulfilling and meaningful life. So doing so often means deterring away from your values a little bit.

...

The big question appears to be, is it possible for society at large to agree on a common list of issues that are OK to vocally express dismay about in public?

I honestly don't want society to turn any more rude than it already is, but at the same time I don't want everyone whining about everything. The key for each of us individually is to know who we can trust in expressing the trials we are facing in our lives at a given moment in time...

Yeah, I think that's key. No one wants to get taken advantage of by someone who thinks they can whine and get whatever they want. But some things should be okay to talk about and consider in public settings, as opposed to pretty much nothing.

 

[Little_Sticks]

...
So, yes, I think it is resentment, the mentality that everybody has to pay their dues.

Yeah...and that just makes the current solvable problems with people remain or get worse with time.

Come to think of it, I wonder if what I'm talking about has something to do with Hippie mentality. Not that I would want to be one, but it's one way people went against the things that they felt were hurting them, even if it was for a short time.

Edit: Oh, and this isn't about me either. It's just something I suddenly realized.

 

[Arclight]

I've noticed something strange about people in general in this society nowadays. It seems that because the general population has accepted a certain mentality that life is supposed to be tough and painful if someone decides to voice their discomfort with being in pain in some way that other people think it is okay to put them down for it - to toughen them up because that is how to handle life best (in their eyes).

The problem with this is that by doing so they propagate the life is tough and painful reality and 'make it worse' with time. They don't realize they are hurting themselves in the process by accepting this reality and assuming that is the only control they have over anything, thus strengthening and maintaining such a viewpoint. So why do people feel the need to act so stupid? Is it a resentment that if someone has to go through something difficult they feel others should as well?

Of course, I think overall this idea is a bad one over time for a society to adopt and that cooperation between people becomes important in this case, but what do you think?

I have had similar conversations in the recent past.

I am under the impression that it is by design. meaning I believe there is an actual undertaking either by Business, Government or both to keep people subdued, afraid of each other and distracted by mundane details.

Now with MP3 Players,cell/mobile phones laptop/netbooks and wi-fi people are disonnecting from the general public even more. being "connected" these days is an oxymoron.
People become detached from the feelings of others , the sense of community is the casualty.

 

[CollisionCourse?]

I don't think that considerate toughening up is necessarily a bad thing. While it may not solve any issues on it's own, it helps a person to deal with them.

What I find important is a motivation for such "whining" (even if it's subconscious).

There are people, who do that, because they feel powerless to deal with their troubles. They do realize, that those are their problems, but they're desperate and really need a helping hand or at least a friend to listen to them.

And there are also people, that do that to seek for a confirmation, that they hold no responsibility for their problems and for solving them, and those just need to be slapped.

(of course, this apply only to some (more or less) standard situations. I'm not talking about personal tragedies)

 

[KDude]

I'm not sure it's any worse than it ever was. At the very least, the internet is probably the last place to look for any trends. I think that could give the impression that the world is worse. I mean, people commit suicide on webcams nowadays, and you see others egging them on. It's totally fucked up, but these type of people would have been the same kind of cold hearted bastards in another age too. They just have a place to congregate now.

In offline life, it's best to just talk to people whom you know will listen and help you solve things.. even if those people see it as whining, they at least know how to approach their friends best. No one else deserves your time...unless they explicitly offer help or something.

 

[Coriolis]

I make a distinction between whining and constructive emoting. The second is the legitimate expression of overwhelming feelings (grief, anger, etc.) in an appropriate setting as part of the process of dealing with the entire situation. One addresses the emotional upset, then moves on to address the cause. The first (whining)

is not part of any constructive process at all; it is a chronic and seems only to feed some unhealthy internal need that ultimately can never be satisfied.

People seem to whine, or complain, or gripe with friends or coworkers, when they are unwilling to put out the effort actually to confront the negative situation head-on. People are often quick to argue that there is nothing they can do. This is rarely the case, but the options available often require work, patience, creativity, change, and acceptance of risk, things to which many are averse.

To respond to Saslou: sometimes it is essential to disabuse someone of an incorrect perception. They may not be ready to absorb it yet, but when they are, it may take an infusion of outside perspective for them to change their own. We need not force the issue, just put it out there, and it will take hold at the proper time, if there is one.

 

[Little_Sticks]

I should probably make a distinction between a couple things because you're essentially explaining the whole problem.

First what you talk about makes sense. But when this idea becomes a problem is when people start to associate 'constructive emoting' with 'whining'. Suddenly, because of social ineptitude, for whatever reasons, real issues people have become ignored or discredited, and for often resenting human reasons. Or in other cases, people have learned to live with the same issues and think they have no other way to deal with them so they think they are doing a favor to someone by telling them to 'get used to it', when in fact nothing is actually being improved.

I think a good example might be if someone were put in a rain forest and was forced to survive on their own. Everything they do will be for their survival or they die. Sometimes frustration or anger or joy will occur and be felt, this may lead to 'constructive emoting', where the person feels an afterward relief and mental clarity after displaying the intense raw emotion they 'feel inside'. Such a thing is healthy and human and leaves the person's mind free to focus on what needs to be done rather then on 'why they shouldn't feel those emotions'. It'll make sense once you read the rest.

The problem in reality though is that displays of 'constructive emoting' are often suppressed. Most jobs in the world are of a customer service orientation. The customer is $$ and your job is to get that money. By putting out a persona that the customer enjoys you become more likely to get that money, and money is the new way to survive. Thus, suddenly the 'constructive emoting' that the one man used successfully in his rain forest adventure becomes useless in the 'social human rain forest', which sets the new conditions for survival. How well you adapt to this other 'social human rain forest' becomes more about how well you can act 'what people want you to' and suppress 'what you actually feel inside'. Now this leads to some interesting survival ideas.

And what you might have guessed is that a person who can act 'what people want them to act' and act out 'what they feel inside' is going to adapt to this world the best. But what about the person that has to suppress what they actually 'feel inside'? This person is going to find that if they are having trouble reconciling the two that they will have a harder time getting along with people, holding jobs for long periods, and 'feeling good about themselves'. For whatever reasons, this person's original 'constructive emoting' was deemed unworthy of acceptance and adjustment by society at large. This can lead to an internal struggle in this person that makes them look whiny, weak, and helpless, and this just keeps them in a catch-22 operand um where others think they are just being whiny, inappropriate, and stupid. And these people are in no position to fight back against anything, nor are they likely to have people around them to confide in, and if they manage to get through it all, unless enlightened to the fact that their feelings are 'valid' in this case, will believe the best thing is to 'toughen up', be cold, and that they are just a weak person, and they will propagate these foolish ideas to their children. It's sickening.

In general, what I'm getting at is the sad truth that some people are not suited well for most jobs, and have no choice but to subject themselves to being mistreated for a certain amount of their life in the hopes that they will gain enough power, respect, influence, education to obtain a job that suits their internal and external needs, and not just their external needs - because face it, we are not robots, we all have emotions and tending to them and utilizing them are important to live a most constructive life. Isn't this what personality theory is really all about? Because to deny this and hand someone a pill or tell them to toughen up is not addressing the actual 'human' problem. The saddest thing someone can do is spend an entire life already dead because they aren't either smart enough or knowledgeable enough to know there is nothing wrong with them... This is what I was trying to get at in the OP. And this is what has shocked me as of late in how people relate to one another. I wish I was smarter and realized this a lot sooner. We have great technology, but we are indeed still animals.