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J/P difference, long-range/short-range thinking?

Jaguar

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Translation: "ENTJs are better than everyone, moron."

Cloud, is that you?

They're descriptions of the bases from which people construct their worldviews.

Now you are claiming jungian functions lead to world views.
How about the type of pizza people order, or the brand of tampon a woman buys?
 

simulatedworld

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Didn't you say you can't "use Se"? What happened?

I did say that at one point, but I've revised my theory since then. I thought I had explained this.

After reading more about it, I now believe that we do occasionally use the shadow functions, just that "using" them is a misleading term because it implies that performing a certain action = using a certain function. "Using" a function means seeing from the perspective of that style of cognition...not just performing some action or another.

If I do something because I feel that responding according to immediate surface perceptions in order to make the strongest sensory impact is the best way to go about it, then Se has motivated me to do it. Se is a way of orienting your relationship to the outer world.

However, just looking up and seeing what's in front of me doesn't constitute "using" Se or any particular function. Everybody does that all the time. I am not using Se unless I'm actually orienting myself according to the Se style of perception, which, as I said, is difficult for a natural Ne dom.

C-O-N-T-R-A-D-I-C-T-I-O-N. :D

I take full responsibility for the mistakes in my previous 4-function model. I no longer believe that shadow functions are never used. I now believe that those perspectives can be accessed at times, just that it requires temporarily breaking from the preferred ones and is thus significantly more difficult and less common.


Now you are claiming jungian functions lead to world views.
How about the type of pizza people order, or the brand of tampon a woman buys?

I don't understand the connection.
 

Little_Sticks

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I wish they hadn't gone with J for judging and P for perceiving in MBTI. It just doesn't correlate to that except to show a function order. I guess it's hard to put meaning to it though without having a descriptive label like judging vs perceiving, but the whole J is a judger and likes to make lists and create structure, whereas P is better able to go with the flow, is more than a bit oversimplified. If my Fi is sparked I see no reason to believe I couldn't Se procrastinate my way through something while formulating smart quick plans.

But then again Socionics considers Ni, Si, Se, and Ne to be data gathering functions (and I believe it makes more sense to say this than MBTI); Ti, Fi, Te, Fe are action filters. In this way anyone dominate in Ni, Si, Se, or Ne are perceivers (hence the J/P switch with introverts).

But I also wonder if that really makes much more sense since you can look at an ENTJ for instance and see that they are using Te actions first and foremost with Ni to back it up. I would gather an ENTJ might be a better procrastinator in this regard than an ESTP that focuses more on taking in the interactions of their environment and then acting on them by reaching structured judgments about what's going on. It really becomes a question of which is more successful in their dealings with their world. The one that is more successful will be deemed a better perceiver, I suppose.

In retrospect, I hate how it is so hard for me to convince myself of anything.

Edit: I suppose the more I think about typology, the more I realize the intuiting preference in people probably does deserve the often attached connotation of 'visionary'.
 
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Ginkgo

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Cloud, is that you?



Now you are claiming jungian functions lead to world views.
How about the type of pizza people order, or the brand of tampon a woman buys?

I think "world-view" is a misnomer. Replace with cognitive orientation. It's how they orient themselves.

When you say that your archetype dictates your worldview, you also say that it dictates your preferences, your belief systems... namely your culture and every inkling of understanding you have about yourself and the universe.
 

Jaguar

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I did say that at one point, but I've revised my theory since then.

Solitary Walker, is that you?
Both of you have a really bad habit of making ignorant statements in this forum, and when someone calls you out on your bullshit, you say:

"I've revised my theory since then."

Just think, Sim, someone could say: "All blacks rob banks."
And when someone beats the hell out of them, they can claim they've "revised their theory since then." :rolleyes:
 

simulatedworld

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Solitary Walker, is that you?
Both of you have a really bad habit of making ignorant statements in this forum, and when someone calls you out on your bullshit, you say:

"I've revised my theory since then."

Just think, Sim, someone could say: "All blacks rob banks."
And when someone beats the hell out of them, they can claim they've "revised their theory since then." :rolleyes:

Would you prefer that we stick dogmatically to our past mistakes and refuse to learn? I don't understand what's so bad about revising one's theory.

Isn't that how learning in general works? Haven't you ever expressed an idea and realized later that it was incorrect?


I think "world-view" is a misnomer. Replace with cognitive orientation. It's how they orient themselves.

When you say that your archetype dictates your worldview, you also say that it dictates your preferences, your belief systems... namely your culture and every inkling of understanding you have about yourself and the universe.

Perhaps your dominance in an introverted function comes into play here. Introverted functions orient the self's internal standards, and extroverted ones orient our relationship to the outer world.

dictionary.com said:
world·view (wûrld'vyōō')
n.

1.

The overall perspective from which one sees and interprets the world.
2.

A collection of beliefs about life and the universe held by an individual or a group.

I'm going more with the latter definition here. Archetypes do tend to lead to certain ways of conceptualizing ourselves and our relationships to the outer world, and the best way to navigate life and various situations. This would qualify as "a collection of beliefs."
 

Jaguar

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Would you prefer that we stick dogmatically to our past mistakes and refuse to learn? I don't understand what's so bad about revising one's theory.

Isn't that how learning in general works? Haven't you ever expressed an idea and realized later that it was incorrect?


Whatever it is you think you're selling, I'm not buying.
 

simulatedworld

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Whatever it is you think you're selling, I'm not buying.

I have a hard time communicating with you because any time I try to just speak frankly and openly with you, you presume I'm somehow trying to cheat or mislead you.
 
G

Ginkgo

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Imagine your mind consists of everything blue that is our planet. (No testicle puns please)

The air is above the sea; and as such it dominates and extends itself. The air is your first four functions. Below that, the depths of the sea swirl in currents, violently, placidly. The sea is your shadow functions.

But just because your first functions are more prevalent doesn't mean that your shadow functions are expunged at any given time. They are both there in circumspect at all times.

Just because some synapses fire most frequently doesn't mean that the others cease all together.
 

simulatedworld

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Imagine your mind consists of everything blue that is our planet. (No testicle puns please)

The air is above the sea; and as such it dominates and extends itself. The air is your first four functions. Below that, the depths of the sea swirl in currents, violently, placidly. The sea is your shadow functions.

But just because your first functions are more prevalent doesn't mean that your shadow functions are expunged at any given time. They are both there in circumspect at all times.

Just because some synapses fire most frequently doesn't mean that the others cease all together.

imho, yes it does. Fi and Ti directly contradict each other's standards for decision-making. Preferring one of them means that you'll have to temporarily block out the preferred one in order to listen to the non-preferred one.

The same relationship applies to each other pair. This does happen, but not as often as many people think.
 
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Ginkgo

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I'm going more with the latter definition here. Archetypes do tend to lead to certain ways of conceptualizing ourselves and our relationships to the outer world, and the best way to navigate life and various situations. This would qualify as "a collection of beliefs."

Right, but no 2 people of the same archetype have the same worldview, and 2 people of entirely different archetypes may have a more similar world view than those of parallel archetypes. So archetypes and worldviews are not the same thing. They just influence each other by an immeasurable degree.
 

simulatedworld

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Right, but no 2 people of the same archetype have the same worldview, and 2 people of entirely different archetypes may have a more similar world view than those of parallel archetypes. So archetypes and worldviews are not the same thing. They just influence each other by an immeasurable degree.

Obviously no two people will ever have exactly the same worldview on everything; "worldview" in this case simply describes similarities in cognitive orientation. Two people of the same type will, however, have the same worldview on certain forms of cognitive orientation, and thus share a set of implicit beliefs.

The same cognitive orientation can lead to lots of different opinions on lots of issues, and very different lifestyles, but their worldviews will still share certain similarities in terms of the way they orient themselves and their relationships to the outer world.

If all you intend to do here is debate the use of the term "worldview", then I concede as I'm not very interested in doing that.
 
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Ginkgo

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If all you intend to do here is debate the use of the term "worldview", then I concede as I'm not very interested in doing that.

Just clarifying :D

I noticed a vernacular disconnect between you and Jaguar, and that's why you were unable to connect world-view with pizza and tampons.
 

Jaguar

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I have a hard time communicating with you because any time I try to just speak frankly and openly with you, you presume I'm somehow trying to cheat or mislead you.

Shall I lie? It's not my style. I think your comments are full of shit.
So be it.
 

simulatedworld

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Just clarifying :D

I noticed a vernacular disconnect between you and Jaguar, and that's why you were unable to connect world-view with pizza and tampons.

I think, as demonstrated by the dictionary quote provided, you've assumed a certain definition of the term "worldview" which is not the only possible meaning for it. Note that it can simply mean, "A collection of beliefs shared by a group."

So, Fi doms share the worldview that personal values and feelings are the most important priority in most situations.

Pointing out that no two people will ever have precisely the same perspective seems quite beside the point.


Shall I lie? It's not my style. I think your comments are full of shit.
So be it.

So when you've shown one of my positions to be incorrect, how do you propose I respond? If I continue insisting that my incorrect position is correct, I'm an idiot, but if I concede that I was incorrect and revise my position, I'm "full of shit."

What option am I left with? This goes back to your insistence on defining my positions for me. When you refuse to believe someone's descriptions of his own beliefs, the whole communication process breaks down. I don't have any idea how to respond to that.
 
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Ginkgo

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I think, as demonstrated by the dictionary quote provided, you've assumed a certain definition of the term "worldview" which is not the only possible meaning for it. Note that it can simply mean, "A collection of beliefs shared by a group."

Pointing out that no two people will ever have precisely the same perspective seems quite beside the point.

I know, there are several meanings for it. That's why I wanted you to expound upon which one you were using so that perhaps Jaguar could understand on your frequency. Thank you for doing that.

Now, as it stands, your cognitive orientation influences the way you process information - inside and out. Thus, it also influences the beliefs you adopt, your personal preferences, so on and so forth. To what degree - we don't know. It works en tandem with your environment and other factors that are involved. And because no two fish are identical, no two worldviews are identical.
 

simulatedworld

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I know, there are several meanings for it. That's why I wanted you to expound upon which one you were using so that perhaps Jaguar could understand on your frequency. Thank you for doing that.

Now, as it stands, your cognitive orientation influences the way you process information - inside and out. Thus, it also influences the beliefs you adopt, your personal preferences, so on and so forth. To what degree - we don't know. It works en tandem with your environment and other factors that are involved. And because no two fish are identical, no two worldviews are identical.

"Worldview" doesn't have to describe your entire belief system about everything. It can, in some contexts, describe only a particular subset of beliefs within that overall view.

When we use "worldview" to mean "the entire sum total of a person's beliefs about everything", then yes, you're correct that no two are the same.

However, when we use "worldview" to mean "a collection of beliefs held by an individual or group", it's quite common for different people to share the same one.
 

AphroditeGoneAwry

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imho, yes it does. Fi and Ti directly contradict each other's standards for decision-making. Preferring one of them means that you'll have to temporarily block out the preferred one in order to listen to the non-preferred one.

The same relationship applies to each other pair. This does happen, but not as often as many people think.

Getting in on the fun here, although I really don't have the time.

:)

How can you support the bolded?
 
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