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J/P difference, long-range/short-range thinking?

simulatedworld

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Getting in on the fun here, although I really don't have the time.

:)

How can you support the bolded?

In short, FiTe believes internal value judgments should be made according to personal ethical values, while TiFe believes they should be made according to impersonal logic.

To FiTe, the idea of changing your feelings according to external standards is insincere and offensive. FiTe doesn't see how impersonal judgments can be made internally without external influence.

TiFe believes the same thing about changing your ideas regarding impersonal reasoning according to external standards, and doesn't see how ethical value judgments can be made without external influence.

This is the best explanation I have seen:

uumlau said:
Fi is selfish, but what people often don't realize is that Ti is just as selfish. For shorthand, let us call the entities that Fi processes "feelings" and the entities that Ti processes "ideas."

Fi users predominantly use Te, and Ti users predominantly use Fe. So Fi is selfish about feelings, but unselfish about ideas. Ti is selfish about ideas, but not selfish about feelings.

For Fi users, it's about what I feel, what I feel, what I feel. For Ti users, it's all about what I think, what I think, what I think.

Fe/Ti tries to communicate with Fi, but can get stuck on this selfishness crosstalk. Fe's feelings are shared: feelings are precisely how you connect with other people. If you're not sharing your feelings, if you do not adjust your feelings to accomodate others, you're being selfish. But remember, this is all because Fe is a primary communication tool: by hiding one's own feelings, by not adjusting one's own feelings in response to others, of course it looks selfish to Fe.

However, the same thing is true between Te and Ti. When I talk with someone using Te, there is a free flow of ideas. The ideas change and alter on the fly, we work together to develop new ideas, to share ideas. We connect and communicate via ideas. Enter the Ti user, who alternately seems like a brick wall, black hole, or source of technically correct and accurate but useless and noncommunicative information (think Microsoft Technical Support). With Te, I can't tell a Ti user a damn thing. I present ideas to the Ti user, who only procedes to pick them apart, accuse me of being inconsistant or incomplete or shallow. In the meantime, I hardly get any clue what the Ti user thinks. I get no "hooks" with which to show him where he might have some bad assumptions. He rejects my ideas based on his bad assumptions, and keeps on saying things like, "I don't understand how that could be true," and leaving me without a clue on which stupid idea he has in his head that makes him possibly think it couldn't be true. Why? Because he has to figure it all out for himself, selfish bastard. He can't trust even for a moment that I might be correct.

Thing is, though, that's just my impression. What really goes on is that he is self-doubting. He is unsure. But it's Ti, so he doesn't express it. He's Ti, so he has a lot of trouble expressing his confusion. If his ideas are wrong, then there is something seriously wrong with him, and he's going to take a long time to refigure them out.

Now, reverse that, and that's how Fe/Ti views us. Their feelings aren't shallow, they just feel that way to us. They share and develop feelings together, with other people as a means of connecting, and Fi users refuse that connection, which hurts them. We reject their feelings (because we feel they're "forcing them on us"), and that hurts them. We wish them happiness and all sorts of abstract positive things, but we don't respond to their particular feelings, which hurts them.
 
G

Ginkgo

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Ok, well...

I don't really make long term plans. I tend to absorb as much knowledge as possible to facilitate my decisions. I can act extemporaneously, but I also make mental plans for the day. I'm pretty terrible at commitments, really. I enjoy a certain amount of structure in my daily life, but not so much that it's suffocating. Long range planning feels like I'm being confined, literally. Like I'm blind-sighted. However, there have been a few times in my life when I garnered enough motivation to put forth a plan. Those times were characterized by ardent passion for doing one thing or another, usually for helping those who are close to me. Sometimes competition helps too. But that's only because I've armored myself with an esteem like "I can do this no matter what gets in my way". This is very rare though. I'm much more comfortable with short term planning, and sometimes I even enjoy it when nature takes its course and diverts everyone's long range plans out of the way. Like if there's rain or a thunderstorm that prevents people from going about their normal routine. Sometimes not though. It's a very contextual thing.

EDIT: There is a particular "balancing" thing that I do when I weigh the pros and cons of long term and short term decisions. It's a very rational approach.
 

Jaguar

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So when you've shown one of my positions to be incorrect, how do you propose I respond? If I continue insisting that my incorrect position is correct, I'm an idiot, but if I concede that I was incorrect and revise my position, I'm "full of shit."

What option am I left with? This goes back to your insistence on defining my positions for me. When you refuse to believe someone's descriptions of his own beliefs, the whole communication process breaks down. I don't have any idea how to respond to that.

I'm not interested in you conceding anything to me. That's win-lose, childish, bullshit.
I'm a knowledge junkie, not a superficial twit who thinks one-upping another forum member makes them "smart."

I'm done with this thread.
Go talk to yourself.
 

simulatedworld

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I'm not interested in you conceding anything to me. That's win-lose, childish, bullshit.
I'm a knowledge junkie, not a superficial twit who thinks one-upping another forum member makes them "smart."

I'm done with this thread.
Go talk to yourself.

Uh...I'm confused. I tried to admit that my previous interpretation was flawed and now you're complaining that I'm trying to one-up you to look smart?

If you're not concerned with one-upping people, why do you repeatedly show up in threads and complain that my current model is inconsistent with one I used in the past? I really honestly do not understand this. I am freely admitting that my 4-function model was wrong. What else am I supposed to say? :huh:
 
G

Ginkgo

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C'mon guyz, let's just like... hug each other until our disputes are crushed between us.

polar-bear-funny-dog-death-hug.jpg
 

JustHer

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because her father is Billy Rae Cyrus...and that man still has a mullet :doh:
 

simulatedworld

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Okay, then can you stop showing up and complaining that my posts are inconsistent with previous posts that were based on interpretations I have openly admitted were wrong?

I mean, really...I don't think you'd prefer that I just refuse to ever revise any of my ideas, would you?
 

JustHer

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I think the point is that you stubbornly and emotionally argue some ridiculous unfounded idea and then change your mind afterward without a) taking any responsibility for what you said, and b) taking the hint and learning for future reference to stop and think about what you are saying beforehand, and whether there is just the slightest chance it may be retarded.



On a different note...

Consider that you may be a dominant F type.
 

simulatedworld

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I think the point is that you stubbornly and emotionally argue some ridiculous unfounded idea and then change your mind afterward without a) taking any responsibility for what you said, and b) taking the hint and learning for future reference to stop and think about what you are saying beforehand, and whether there is just the slightest chance it may be retarded.

Often, when I am considering an idea and uncertain of whether or not it really holds up, I can learn more about it by arguing from the perspective of that idea and seeing if anyone else is able to find something wrong with it.

Sometimes the idea turns out to be bad and I abandon it and move on to a different one. Sometimes there's a problem with it that I hadn't noticed and it takes arguing it out with others to figure that out. I think all of this is pretty typical ENTP. For extroverted perception, part of the idea evaluation process involves finding out what others think about it and testing it out against people who oppose it.

I know Jaguar thinks arguing for positions that one doesn't necessarily support is ridiculous, but it's part of the way EPs evaluate ideas and you'd think that by now he'd at least expect me to be doing it, instead of quoting my discarded ideas 600 times as if he expects me to support them all the way to my deathbed.

I guess "support everything you've ever said to your deathbed" is associated with some kind of Fi honor thing. From a Te perspective, I imagine it looks flaky and disingenuous. "Why can't he figure out what he thinks for sure before arguing it with people?" Well, because sometimes other people introduce a perspective I didn't notice on my own and that forces me to reevaluate my idea.

It's in the EP's nature to experiment with things before we know for sure if they work. The process of experimenting with them (by trying them out, arguing in their favor, etc.) is a crucial part of finding out whether or not we really want to support them.

On a different note...

Consider that you may be a dominant F type.

Nah, just tertiary Fe. Same reason thatgirl strikes some people as ESTP (ENTJ's teritary Se.) I find that a number of people seem to use forums to vent tertiary functions.
 

JustHer

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Often, when I am considering an idea and uncertain of whether or not it really holds up, I can learn more about it by arguing from the perspective of that idea and seeing if anyone else is able to find something wrong with it.

There's the mature way to discuss(argue?) an idea and then there is the SimulatedWorld way. Just a thought.


Nah, just tertiary Fe. Same reason thatgirl strikes some people as ESTP (ENTJ's teritary Se.)

Uh... no.
 

Jaguar

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I know Jaguar thinks arguing for positions that one doesn't necessarily support is ridiculous, but it's part of the way EPs evaluate ideas and you'd think that by now he'd at least expect me to be doing it, instead of quoting my discarded ideas 600 times as if he expects me to support them all the way to my deathbed.


All EPs aren't flakes who change their mind 72 times an hour.

Uh... no.

Looks like he changed his mind, yet again. :rolleyes:
 

simulatedworld

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There's the mature way to discuss(argue?) an idea and then there is the SimulatedWorld way. Just a thought.

Arguing hypothetical positions that one may not actually support is typically associated with ENTPs. Think about it from a functional perspective...

Ti considers the idea and comes up with what may be an explanation for it. But since Ti is totally internal, and the ENTP is an extrovert, Ne needs to go and experiment with the idea externally (often by arguing it with people who oppose it) in order to learn about its potential flaws and allow Ti to make a decision as to how to ultimately evaluate it.

Te, since it values having objective certainty and a clear cut plan of action, finds this flighty, inconsistent, hypocritical, etc. Most ENTPs I know don't tend to get along well with ENTJs and this is one major reason for it.


Uh... no.

Excellent rebuttal. You're right; I'm ESFJ.


All EPs aren't flakes who change their mind 72 times an hour.

There are really only a few issues in my ideas about typology that I've actually made major changes to, and they've occurred over about 16 months on the forum, not one hour.


Looks like he changed his mind, yet again. :rolleyes:

Well, yeah. I thought she was ESTP based on the information I had; I interacted with her and got more information, and decided my previous conclusion had been incorrect.

This is a really common J criticism of Ps, by the way. I'm not saying it's without merit, but it's worth taking into consideration that we approach evaluating ideas in very different ways.
 

Jaguar

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Arguing hypothetical positions that one may not actually support is typically associated with ENTPs.

Way to go, blaming 4 letters for your nonsense.
"Hey, I'm an unreliable flake! It's normal for an ENTP to have no depth or substance!"

Rubbish.

decided my previous conclusion had been incorrect.

So is that one.
 

simulatedworld

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Way to go, blaming 4 letters for your nonsense.
"Hey, I'm an unreliable flake! It's normal for an ENTP to have no depth or substance!"

Rubbish.

Well, why does playing devil's advocate necessitate having no depth or substance?

I don't know about you, but for me, taking a position and trying to come up with a justification for it is a useful thought exercise that helps me to consider different ways of looking at an issue. I think of it like a court of law: I can't fully dismiss an idea until I've tried to put myself in its shoes and see if I can make it work in an argument against someone who opposes it. (Not to mention, it's just fun to explore the different angles.)

Sometimes the idea ends up being wrong, but I don't really know until I try. Ti is isolated from outside influence and so Ne's experimentation with how others will respond to the idea is often the only effective way of incorporating any external influence into decision-making.

I can see why, from a TeFi perspective, this creates a lack of integrity. But I don't really see it that way...it's just part of the process of evaluating ideas.
 

Jaguar

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You like potato and I like potahto, You like tomato and I like tomahto
Potato, potahto, Tomato, tomahto, Let's call the whole thing off
 
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