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Stereotypes: Based on fact or ignorance?

Salomé

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I think stereotypes will always exist no matter how much people say they don't stereotype, as reality is only an illusion to the individual. Everyone puts meaning to their experiences be it true or not. So what is reality? As everyone has a different view of it. Sames goes with stereotyping.
Stereotyping isn't everyone having a different view. Quite the opposite.

Agree that they are an inevitable result of the way human cognition works at a primitive level. Probably because people who think like this:

"That snake bit me"
Ergo "All snakes bite"
Ergo "Must kill every snake I see"

outlived people who think like this:

"That snake bit me"
"I wonder if all snakes bite?"
"Let me just find another snake and check that..."

:D
 

durentu

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Nope. My point stands without illustration. To conclude that truth is "what most people believe" is sloppy at best, dangerous at worst.

without illustration? lol ok

argumentum ad ignorantiam.
 

Night

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Stereotypes typically involve taking what one sees as a general pattern in a demographic group- whether observed first hand or otherwise- and erroneously apply it to every member of said demographic group. All stereotypes are wrong- both logically and,in some cases, ethically. For example to say that men are stronger than women is a stereotype and thus wrong.

However, if one were to say that men are generally stronger than women, then that may be considered a proper generalisation and thus accurate and further more ethical.

I'm not concerned with ethics. I'm concerned with science.

If you can refute the scientific assertion that men are naturally physically stronger than women due to an advantage in testosterone / muscle production, then please do so. If not, you're obfuscating.

And, don't cherry-pick for semantics. It cheapens your argument.
 

ObliviousExistence

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if a person takes stereotypes as facts then it indicates ignorance. Stereotypes are based on generalizations and as such have only probability value.
 

FDG

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Is (or isn't) it stereotypical to say that stereotypes are based on ignorance?
 

Salomé

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if a person takes stereotypes as facts then it indicates ignorance. Stereotypes are based on generalizations and as such have only probability value.
They don't even have that. They are effectively untested hypotheses. Folk wisdom. As wise or as stupid as the folk who invented them. And many comprise a set of assumptions or attributes which are impossible to verify.

LuckyNoLimits said:
so really, it almost seems like it's ignorant to think that stereotypes are ignorant. see what i did there?
Yeah. You confused yourself. Is it ignorant to think that ignorance is ignorant? Not really. It's accurate, if mundane.
 

Salomé

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Steroetyping really is a working guide that you throw out once you have more concrete input (or have a new method of operating), so it's born of ignorance (or help the ignorant). It becomes destructive when it's clung to, and misrepresented as fact, when really it stopped being useful along time ago, and some body forgot to update the working guide.
Quite so.

Interesting thread, Trin. One assumes most thinking people realize this to be true but in so doing one engages in the "similar to me" stereotype. Perfect irony. :laugh:
 

Kasper

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OT stuff moved. Resume topic: Stereotypes... now :)
 

Totenkindly

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No - the perspectives I offered/you quoted are not rooted in subjective experience.

Biologically, women have a higher concentration of fat cells than do men, on average between 6-11% more. To my other point, men are innately physically stronger than women. This is owed to increased production of testosterone.

It's just science, blue.

Both points are true. (Although I think then she's suggesting that, if true scientifically, they're no longer stereotypes.) I think there is confusion, though, because I've seen people argue vehemently that such statements ARE stereotypes... including this guy:

ConstantlyImagining said:
Stereotypes typically involve taking what one sees as a general pattern in a demographic group- whether observed first hand or otherwise- and erroneously apply it to every member of said demographic group. All stereotypes are wrong- both logically and,in some cases, ethically. For example to say that men are stronger than women is a stereotype and thus wrong.

However, if one were to say that men are generally stronger than women, then that may be considered a proper generalisation and thus accurate and further more ethical. The nuances between a stereotype and a generalisation, produced by adding words or phrases that denote the pattern as general- in the case of a generalisation-, alters implications and connotations of the statement almost entirely as it takes into consideration the possibility of instances or variables that lie beyond what is the norm.

So in these instances the difference between a stereotype and a generalization is the inclusion of qualifying phrases that signal a generalization, rather than just offering what can be assumed to be a generalized truth?

If the statement is "all stereotypes have some truth", then I don't think this absolute is likely. The common can be controlled and do vary. Perhaps stereotypes can only go from 0% to 80% reliable.

Stereotypes are born of the inability of normal people to think probabilistically (most is not all). They're never wholly true, but they're generally mostly true, and thus useful regardless.

if a person takes stereotypes as facts then it indicates ignorance. Stereotypes are based on generalizations and as such have only probability value.

Yes, basically that's it -- they're not statements of fact that are either/or true, they're statements of seeming probability (at best). I've learned the hard way that many people in this world do not assign probability to statements in order to "weigh" their veracity, instead they turn them into erroneous binary statements because keeping probability sliders in mind is just too complex. To me, I just assume in my head (because I already attach a probability slider) that the statement "men are physically stronger than women" is just a general truth, because I know exceptions to the rule (i.e., the ends of the bell curves overlap)... but it's obvious that the center of the bell curves for both genders reflect this statement to be generally accurate.

And stereotypes do have some practical value, as Morgan notes here:

"That snake bit me"
Ergo "All snakes bite"
Ergo "Must kill every snake I see"

outlived people who think like this:

"That snake bit me"
"I wonder if all snakes bite?"
"Let me just find another snake and check that..."

Totally. Fairness and/or accuracy wasn't the priority; survival and/or personal well-being was. Survival meant minimizing risk, not being "more accurate" and inadvertently walking the edge.

It sort of just sucks when the same methodology is carried out nowadays to repress or hurt others, a thought probably shared by the non-poisonous snakes in the above example.

Nowadays stereotypes seem to be a tool used by people who are unable or are afraid to operate in ambiguity of working with probabilities rather than rigid binary facts; they avoid their anxiety, at some else's expense.

Is (or isn't) it stereotypical to say that stereotypes are based on ignorance?

:)
 

Night

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Both points are true. (Although I think then she's suggesting that, if true scientifically, they're no longer stereotypes.)

That was my initial lean, as well. The subsequent explanations were less than concise, so I thought I'd have some fun. :D
 

Salomé

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Both points are true. (Although I think then she's suggesting that, if true scientifically, they're no longer stereotypes).
Yes. I should have omitted the word “Such” and it would have been clearer, though I think most understood my meaning.

So in these instances the difference between a stereotype and a generalization is the inclusion of qualifying phrases that signal a generalization, rather than just offering what can be assumed to be a generalized truth?
A generalization is usually true. A stereotype isn’t necessarily true at all, it’s just a belief. It may not even be subjectively true. At best, it’s an example of weak inductive reasoning, along the lines of

Every man I've ever observed is stronger than me
I'm a woman
Therefore, men are stronger than women
This is an invalid argument, albeit based on observation of "fact".

"Men are stronger than women because testosterone makes them stronger.” is essentially deductive reasoning:

Testosterone makes an individual stronger by increasing muscle strength and mass.
Men have more testosterone than women.
Therefore:
Men are stronger than women.

This argument is still an overly simplistic generalization but is valid. The premises can be tested and are falsifiable. This model can be used predictively (assuming the premises are proven). e.g. One would expect that a women taking testosterone supplements will be stronger than one who does not. Or if an individual woman is found to have higher testosterone levels than an individual man, one would expect her to be the stronger of the two (if not, we have to find another explanation). We leave the world of the stereotype behind. We are now in the land of cause and effect, of science. We discover that “man” and “woman” are incidental. Hormones are the key. As FireyPheonix points out, stereotypes are only useful when we don’t have a better way of modeling our environment. Knowledge makes them redundant.
 

Halla74

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It's claimed by some that: "All stereotypes are based on some truths or facts".

Personally I think that's a load of crap as I believe there are stereotypes that are based on nothing but ignorance or lack of understanding, but what say yee? Do you believe that all stereotypes are an exaggeration of some truth? Support your stance if you can.

I agree with you, Trin. :yes:
This is why I blast people that use stereotypes based sheerly on ignorance.
Stereotypes are rarely useful, they cause more harm than good.
 

ObliviousExistence

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They don't even have that. They are effectively untested hypotheses. Folk wisdom. As wise or as stupid as the folk who invented them. And many comprise a set of assumptions or attributes which are impossible to verify.

true, most are just pure prejudice. In my own experience though, its always funny when I see walking stereotypes. I've had first hand experience with many different cultures and groups and in most cases the stereotypes tend to be true. Also, people within a social often have stereotypes of their own group.
 

Quinlan

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I think stereotypes are mostly about making the stereotyper comfortable, some people can't stand ambiguity and a stereotype gives people some structure to hang on to even if it's false they'll still hang on to it as it makes them feel good.

I also think people underestimate their own ability to see what they expect to see rather than what actually is, so they will mostly take note of things that confirm their previous (most comforting) assumptions and ignore exceptions.
 

simulatedworld

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Every stereotype is based on some grain of truth, but they're typically exaggerated and applied to too many situations. It's a mistake to assume that the stereotype will describe any given person in the group.
 

Kasper

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Every stereotype is based on some grain of truth, but they're typically exaggerated and applied to too many situations.

Did you read the thread, and if so why do you say a stereotype is based on some grain of truth rather than perception?
 

simulatedworld

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Did you read the thread, and if so why do you say a stereotype is based on some grain of truth rather than perception?

Because there wouldn't be enough people perceiving it that way to generate a well-known stereotype if it weren't.

"Grain of truth" means just that--a little bit of truth. Often, stereotypes don't apply to the majority of people in a group, but if they hold true for more people in that group than random chance would dictate, then there's some grain of truth there.
 

Kasper

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Because there wouldn't be enough people perceiving it that way to generate a well-known stereotype if it weren't.

You think people are too smart and prone to independent thinking and research for that?
 

simulatedworld

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You think people are too smart and prone to independent thinking and research for that?

No, I just think any given stereotype wouldn't exist at all if there wasn't some small degree of truth to it. There'd just be nowhere for it to come from.

Of course, it goes without saying that any given stereotype is incorrect if you try to apply it to every single person in the group in question, or even a majority of them...just that it's true of people from that group more often than people from most other comparable groups.
 

Kasper

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No, I just think any given stereotype wouldn't exist at all if there wasn't some small degree of truth to it. There'd just be nowhere for it to come from.

It could come from not understanding, if one person can look at another and misinterpret X to mean Y and create a basis to stereotype all people in that group of people, then why is it that a group of people couldn't do the same and therefore create a stereotype based on their perspective which is based on misunderstanding?

Of course, it goes without saying that any given stereotype is incorrect if you try to apply it to every single person in the group in question, or even a majority of them...just that it's true of people from that group more often than people from most other comparable groups.

So stereotypes are based on a grain of truth and they're more likely to be true for people of that group than other groups? Sounds like they're based on more than just a "grain of truth" if they cover that group more than any other comparable group.
 
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