Judging the judgmental

[heart]

Without doubt you are correct. Which is just another reason why it's okay to judge. Every time we watch a debate, go to vote, or sit on a jury we're not only encouraged to judge, it's our duty to judge.

Yes, it is impossible to function as sentient being without using judgement. There is no negative connotation to the word judgment. It can be used with critical thought and perspective or it can be used with bias and a closed mind. It is all up to the individual, but no intelligent, rational person could function without making judgments on a daily basis. Each new piece of information that comes to us calls for us to make judgments on how best to categorize and utilize it.

 

[Nadir]

Yes, it is impossible to function as sentient being without using judgement. There is no negative connotation to the word judgment. It can be used with critical thought and perspective or it can be used with bias and a closed mind. It is all up to the individual, but no intelligent, rational person could function without making judgments on a daily basis. Each new piece of information that comes to us calls for us to make judgments on how best to categorize and utilize it.

Yes. Or it can be used with perception.
Honey is undoubtedly honey, as long as we focus on the essence of "honey" in the mind and the commonalities. But how sweet is it? Is it sweet? That depends on our preferences -- as judgers.

 

[ygolo]

Yes. Or it can be used with perception.
Honey is undoubtedly honey, as long as we focus on the essence of "honey" in the mind and the commonalities. But how sweet is it? Is it sweet? That depends on our preferences -- as judgers.

So too, is how good for us is honey, and whether or not it will be something we eat right now.

I see nothing wrong with judgment. It is necessary for life. The distinction between perception and judgment seems like an arbitrary one.
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I don't know what it means to be "judgmental." I think when someone calls someone else "judgmental," (out-loud or just to themselves) it is just an expression of disapproval of the other person's judgment.

Yes, expressing this disapproval (a judgment) to the person being judged will likely lead to disapproval (another judgment) from that person. This, of-course tends towards the viscous cycle mentioned many times in the thread.

However, simply disapproving of someone's judgment, and not expressing it to someone who would disapprove of your disapproval...

The simplest way I can think of reducing the effects of that cycle is to attempt to clarify the reasons a person made a judgment that we "disapprove."

If we state our disagreement (not disapproval), we may be able to make progress in either coming to approve of the person's judgment and/or having that judgment changed.

Hopefully, that made sense to someone.

 

[Fiver]

It seems that someone is considered judgemental if they express (verbally or nonverbally) an unfavorable/negative conclusion and you believe that in doing so:

1) They don't take your feelings into account
and /or
2) They do not value your judgment on the matter.

By that measure it *is* judgmental to judge someone as judgmental. If someone is calling me judgmental, are they taking my feelings into account and are they valuing *my* judgment? Not usually.

You can avoid the Paradox of Judgment if you say, "Yes it does seem unbelievable how fat that person is. It makes me wonder about their life and how they got to that point." That way you can express your disagreement and at the same time value their feelings and judgments.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

Yes, it is impossible to function as sentient being without using judgement. There is no negative connotation to the word judgment. It can be used with critical thought and perspective or it can be used with bias and a closed mind. It is all up to the individual, but no intelligent, rational person could function without making judgments on a daily basis. Each new piece of information that comes to us calls for us to make judgments on how best to categorize and utilize it.

This makes sense, but I think one thing that brought the issue to my mind is the tendency sometimes for people to start with a strikingly negative conclusion. It is like the "guilty until proven innocent" rather than the reverse combined with an initiative to punish the person. Being "judgmental" in that way has to do with distorting information based on fear or preconceived notions that don't map to reality.

What you describe sounds like evaluating situations which could also fall under the word, "judgment". There is something that people do based on fear that tends to look for worse possible explanations for someone else and then a quick drive to punish the person.

I guess I tend to regard judgementalness (which firefox spellcheck assures me is not a word) as a symptom rather than an essential aspect of a person's personality. Then, having identified it, said it aside when talking to them. And I look for underlying causes for the judgementalness. I can be pretty judgemental, but usually more about behaviours rather than people. Except when the people in question are abstracts identified as exhibiting a particular behaviour which I condemn, for discussion purposes. Then I will probably judge them, but I'm really judging the behaviour. Underneath it, though, I'm still looking for the causes.

This post struck me in particular as separating the ability to evaluate and respond to information without the underlying sense of punishment inflicted on others.

 

[Such Irony]

Here is a twisted little observation that has come to mind recently. Most people weary of those who are judgmental, but how do you respond to a judgmental person without passing judgment? And if someone misjudges someone as being that way, then that person becomes the guilty party so to speak?

I just wonder if a truly non-judgmental attitude allows for the human frailty in others of being judgmental. Is it possible withhold judgment?

What do you think?

Yes, I've often struggled with this paradox. I've been guilty of being judgemental towards others' judgemental attitudes. Then I feel bad for being so hypocritical.

I think being judgemental is part of human nature. We all have our own opinions and values on stuff. Therefore we make judgements on things. It's impossible, I think, not to be judgemental to some degree.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

Another question occurred to me on this topic. What exactly is the difference between judgmentalism and being cynical? People tend to reject the idea of being judgmental, leaving it to grumpy church ladies, the intolerant, and those who like to tell people they are doing it wrong. Are these people in their way just cynical? Expecting the worst of humanity and slapping folks back into shape according to their internal model of what a the world should be like?

I think we live in a culture of cynicism due to many instances of broken trust, but I was wondering if it is essentially the same basic mode as judgmentalism just directed in more liberal rather than conservative directions I wonder if the main difference has to do with what a person's internal model of the world is. The difference in acceptance between the two is what is striking to me. A judgmental person tends to be rejected as archaic and intolerant, but a cynical one is somewhat hip. People sometimes aspire to cynicism. It appears in both cases it comes down to assuming the worst about other people.

Cynicism: An attitude of scornful or jaded negativity, especially a general distrust of the integrity or professed motives of others.

 

[catalyst]

The key is to determine how to 'unplug' from the cycle of 'judging the judgemental'. To do this, one must answer the question, 'why does this trigger an emotional response' - you must answer honestly, and you must take the time to determine ALL the reasons that come into play. After years of doing so, you eventually gain momentum and perspective, and are able to keep such a strong, primitive response in check with experience, for the most part. You also learn a lot about yourself, and how to understand and relate to others.

Everyone with a brain draws conclusions, makes comparisons, and 'judges'. It is where you go with it that determines if you are 'judgemental' or not. What are your underlying goals .............motivations. That determines it also.

 

[Thalassa]

I'm judgemental and that's because I have Fi. However, I don't think I'm judging in the J sense of the word, since I can react but get over things quickly, change my mind, take a long time to decide, and even take back what I said in the beginning.

I get most annoyed with people who just dismiss me (or others) quickly and think they're right and never take the time to think about it or change their mind. I seriously don't know how people go through life like that, it seems like a form of emotional stupidity. AND YES THAT'S ME JUDGING! It takes a lot for me to really judge someone to the point of shutting them out and never forgiving (honestly, I don't know if it actually ever happens to me for real). It takes repeated bullshit or extreme violation of values. I'm also usually open to explanations.

Gah I don't know, all people are judgemental, but when people can't even interpret any kind of subtlety when they're making judgements or be open to explanations, that gets on my nerves.

 

[Synapse]

Whats the difference between being judgmental and being discriminatory?
Would judgment be more about value placement on a hierarchy?
Would perception be more about discernment on a valued distinction?

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

Whats the difference between being judgmental and being discriminatory?
Would judgment be more about value placement on a hierarchy?
Would perception be more about discernment on a valued distinction?

These are all good questions. I'll have to think about them more. I do think there is a difference in degree of certitude and rigidity of conclusions - how new information affects the perspective and a person's willingness to adapt to new information. (this was brought out in marmalade's post).

Everyone with a brain draws conclusions, makes comparisons, and 'judges'. It is where you go with it that determines if you are 'judgemental' or not. What are your underlying goals .............motivations. That determines it also.

This seems true - and is what "everyone is judgmental" is trying to get at, I think. The vicious cycle of responding to judgment with judgment is quite the irony to address.

There are quite different ways of interfacing with reality. I think/judge that we live in a hyper-judgmental society in terms of tabloids, the media, "the worst singer in the world", "the best and worst dressed", etc. The way society approaches things look like it causes more suffering than problem solving (which could reasonably be at the root motivation for making a judgment). If a person thinks about the people they have encountered that were judgmental vs. non-judgmental there are a few things that may come to mind. To my mind comes the following:

The "judgmental" person tends to assume
1. they have a full comprehension about a person's life and can therefore draw accurate conclusions. The assumption that this is possible is worth addressing. I suspect that it is not possible to fully comprehend another person's life and experience or draw completely accurate conclusions.
2. their experiences of being hurt by negative people are going to be played out again with each new person they meet, and so their thinking is distorted in the direction of fear and defensiveness. They assume the worst.
3. that there are universal rules or standards that apply to all people which align with their own personal thinking and when people break these rules they should be punished. They confuse the personal with the universal and are therefore justified in imposing their personal perspective in a context in which it might not apply. (Not referring to Fi here, because this idea of universal standards or truths or value can apply to any function in different ways. Even the idea of objectivity plays into it in application.)
4. that each person has control over their own lives and decisions. The more control a person is assumed to have, the more they are in a position to be judged.

I realize the last point is not provable in either direction. It is basically provable that genetics and environment place the outer boundaries on a person's personal control over their lives and ability to make choices, but the degree to which an individual does have control is difficult/impossible to measure. When we see other animals act out their genetics and environmental influences, we don't tend to judge them in the same manner. Although the danger there is a kind of complete dismissal of them as conscious, sentient beings which is more harmful than just being judged as "bad". This kind of assumption about degree of personal control and responsibility exists on a continuum, and might be true to varying degrees. I tend to question it along with the other assumptions because it does form a root of judgmentalism/conclusions which can't be definitively proven.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

bump

 

[draon9]

I woild advise the jidgmental person that it is okay to give your opinion on a person sometimes if you believe there are better solultions but let the person live how they want to live and keep it to yourself if the person want your advice on something then you can give it but for now just chill

 

[prplchknz]

its funny i try to be non-judgemental most of the time. but then as soon as i start feeling judged i get very judgemental as well. so it's like a domino effect. and yeah i can be judgemental but not 'normal' things i have a lot of lgbt friends well not a huge amount i don't have a lot of friends. but the ones i do have say the like me because i tend to be non-judgemental about stuff like that. i'm not gonna judge on your sex,race, or clothes. but i am gonna judge how you treat you others, and i don't give a damn what your gender,orientation, or race is. yes i do realize i have certain privilages that others do not based on those things like i can stand in a parkinglot and no one thinks bad things about me. I can go up to a cop without fearing repercussions, i can get married (I don't want to) with out being judged for my orientation. but that's because of society that things are like that and not the individuals. talk to people if you listen to them non-judgementally you'll easily find at least 5 in every census catagory that breaks the stereotypes. it's not ignoring that someone's black or brown gay or straight male or female its being aware of those things and how they fit into society but its also being aware that everyone is an indvidual and you should get to know them before you decide they're a shitty person. if you get to know them and decide they're a shitty person, then they probably are.

sorry my fi is showing *covers up*