Stupid Thinkers...

[onemoretime]

If you're simply going by "gifted" as in "placed in a gifted program", then certainly, Pe intuitors are going to be at the top of the list... since they have the greater tendency to show off behaviors commonly associated with "giftedness". Usually, this manifests itself as both comprehension of grade-level material and lack of performance, stemming from boredom.

 

[tinkerbell]

If you're simply going by "gifted" as in "placed in a gifted program", then certainly, Pe intuitors are going to be at the top of the list... since they have the greater tendency to show off behaviors commonly associated with "giftedness". Usually, this manifests itself as both comprehension of grade-level material and lack of performance, stemming from boredom.

sorry not following you .....its not at all clear what is call gifteness in this case.. if it is on a gifted programme - what does that realyl mean.

I know that quite a few people on the NT forum seem to think education is geared towards S types (which is bleedining well needs to be because they are the majority), but there ought to be some promotion of N types too.

Are you saying that N type values are raised as beign gifted?

 

[onemoretime]

sorry not following you .....its not at all clear what is call gifteness in this case.. if it is on a gifted programme - what does that realyl mean.

I know that quite a few people on the NT forum seem to think education is geared towards S types (which is bleedining well needs to be because they are the majority), but there ought to be some promotion of N types too.

Are you saying that N type values are raised as beign gifted?

No, more that "gifted" simply means "anyone who comprehends the material at the grade level, and still does not complete classwork to an acceptable level" (American definition, to be sure). As such, xNxPs are the most likely to fall under this definition, since given their natural curiosity, they will have likely learned about grade-level material earlier, and given their Ne, they will not likely care about completing their classwork if it does not comply with what they either think or feel is necessary to learning further.

 

[tinkerbell]

No, more that "gifted" simply means "anyone who comprehends the material at the grade level, and still does not complete classwork to an acceptable level" (American definition, to be sure). As such, xNxPs are the most likely to fall under this definition, since given their natural curiosity, they will have likely learned about grade-level material earlier, and given their Ne, they will not likely care about completing their classwork if it does not comply with what they either think or feel is necessary to learning further.

ARE YOU SERIOUS?

So a kid who knows the work but fails to deliver is categoried as gifted?

Here they would be exceling above and beyond the kids in the class.... that would be comprehension as well as delivery. We don't tend to segregate kids here I don't think.... but I don't have kids so can't say for sure

 

[onemoretime]

ARE YOU SERIOUS?

So a kid who knows the work but fails to deliver is categoried as gifted?

Usually, in the US, a kid will only get the gifted testing battery due to classroom disruption or low performance. I know this from personal experience.

You get low grades, or act out all the time, etc... and then you get sent to the school counselor, they run a set of tests (IQ, Cognitive inventories, etc), and if you hit the right numbers, congrats! you're gifted and as a prize, you get a lifetime prescription of amphetamines, because you sure as hell aren't going to put up with the American educational system without them.

Here they would be exceling above and beyond the kids in the class... but we don't tend to segregate kids I don't tink.... but I don't have kids so can't say for sure

Once you're in the program/on the drugs, you tend to excel, at the expense of years of boredom. So you tend to get into things like computers or video games to deal with the lack of stimulation.

 

[tinkerbell]

Usually, in the US, a kid will only get the gifted testing battery due to classroom disruption or low performance. I know this from personal experience.

You get low grades, or act out all the time, etc... and then you get sent to the school counselor, they run a set of tests (IQ, Cognitive inventories, etc), and if you hit the right numbers, congrats! you're gifted and as a prize, you get a lifetime prescription of amphetamines, because you sure as hell aren't going to put up with the American educational system without them.

Once you're in the program/on the drugs, you tend to excel, at the expense of years of boredom. So you tend to get into things like computers or video games to deal with the lack of stimulation.

LOL - you know I would have beleived you..... LOL

Some kids here act up but they don't get treated as gifted, but I grew up on Scotland, I found a fair bit of the early curriculum was N related... measuring stuff, recognising and classifying shapes... I was taught stuff in primary 1 that was still useful in sixth year in high school....

That said I never was too hot at the parot fashion... times table... and as a dyslexic, spelling was tricky... I was regressed in my final year at primary... I was also IQ tested each year, which was always fun to see the educational psycologist reel a bit, esp with areo spacial bits...

 

[onemoretime]

LOL - you know I would have beleived you..... LOL

Dead serious on that one. See: ADHD thread

Some kids here act up, but I grew up on Scotland, I found a fair bit of the early curriculum was N related... measuring stuff, recognising and classifyign shapes... I was taught stuff in primary 1 that was still useful in sixth year in high school....

Yeah, kindergarten was possibly the most fun I had in elementary school. The rest of the time, I was just reading ahead in my textbooks while the teacher babbled away at the front of the classroom.

That said I never was too hot at the parot fashion... times table... and as a dyslexic, spelling was tricky... I was regressed in my final year at primary... I was also IQ tested each year, which was always fun to see the educational psycologist reel a bit, esp with areo spacial bits...

Heh. I remember the last time I was IQ tested (2006), the administrator was looking at me all funny by the end of it. Luckily, that calmed down when we got to the point where you had to memorize strings of numbers and then read them back (which I'm terrible at - my executive function is complete shit). Of course, the next section was general knowledge, and given that I've won about $500 in the last few months in trivia contests, well, you can imagine how that went.

The spacial manipulation ones are fun... it's cool moving those pieces about in your head

 

[tinkerbell]

Dead serious on that one. See: ADHD thread

Heh. I remember the last time I was IQ tested (2006), the administrator was looking at me all funny by the end of it. Luckily, that calmed down when we got to the point where you had to memorize strings of numbers and then read them back (which I'm terrible at - my executive function is complete shit). Of course, the next section was general knowledge, and given that I've won about $500 in the last few months in trivia contests, well, you can imagine how that went.

The spacial manipulation ones are fun... it's cool moving those pieces about in your head

I saw the ADHD thread and is certainly sounded like normal healthy inquisitive kids were being chemically supressed - NICE!..... Woulnd't happen here unless the kids was a danger to themselves or others... the onus would be on the parents or kids... I'm thinking the pharm industry needs to be controled more over there....

The worldwide prevalence of ADHD: is it an American condition?

Diet plays it's part too, my first time in the US I stayed in Michigan for a month, and couldn't eat much... too much sugar coating or fried food, and the MILK - OMG it was dyed I swear to god someone had done something to the milk - it was blue white and lasted a month... its not milk if it last more than 4 days....... I was horrified at the supermarked and loads of flurecent coloured kids food... WTF..... hmmm Sorry lets not do the ADHD thing...

Kids here are not as well behaved as they could be here - but that is because of less disciplined and change in parenting style ... it's having a huge impact on kids....

Sounds like you had similar experiences with the whole IQ test thing...

 

[onemoretime]

I saw the ADHD thread and is certainly sounded like normal healthy inquisitive kids were being chemically supressed - NICE!..... Woulnd't happen here unless the kids was a danger to themselves or others... the onus would be on the parents or kids... I'm thinking the pharm industry needs to be controled more over there....

The worldwide prevalence of ADHD: is it an American condition?

Diet plays it's part too, my first time in the US I stayed in Michigan for a month, and couldn't eat much... too much sugar coating or fried food, and the MILK - OMG it was dyed I swear to god someone had done something to the milk - it was blue white and lasted a month... its not milk if it last more than 4 days....... I was horrified at the supermarked and loads of flurecent coloured kids food... WTF..... hmmm Sorry lets not do the ADHD thing...

Kids here are not as well behaved as they could be here - but that is because of less disciplined and change in parenting style ... it's having a huge impact on kids....

Sounds like you had similar experiences with the whole IQ test thing...

A few thoughts...

First - yes, ADHD is an American phenomenon. That's because it's a societal compatibility issue, rather than a psychological disorder per se. In the UK, they call the same thing "developmental dyspraxia"... which is all good (I certainly do have problems with fine motor control, and can't keep my hands steady to save my life), but there are problems within that as well.

As far as food goes, there's no denying how synthetic our foods are these days. However, I'm not making any judgments in the absence of empirical evidence showing that there is a correlative effect between the additions and ex-normative behaviors.

Finally, I think parenting style is hugely overrated; that is, either exceptionally positive stimuli benefit, or exceptionally negative stimuli harm a kid, but in the end, kids are kids, and they're not going to be well-behaved. That's because a well-behaved child doesn't learn a thing, and all kids want to learn things above all else (they just disagree as to what they want to learn).

 

[tinkerbell]

Finally, I think parenting style is hugely overrated; that is, either exceptionally positive stimuli benefit, or exceptionally negative stimuli harm a kid, but in the end, kids are kids, and they're not going to be well-behaved. That's because a well-behaved child doesn't learn a thing, and all kids want to learn things above all else (they just disagree as to what they want to learn).

"societal compatibility issue" - sounds very George Orwell-ian. Co-ordination issues are P related I beleive.... seen a few write up with links to that. My dysleixia means I've got wroten hand eye co-ordiantion, actually there is a school of thought that says if kids with dyslexia do hand eye work outs it helps with the whole thing.

I was meaning UK parenting styles... we've gone from a driven - acheivement orientated style - promoting values of advancement, into parents just wanting kids to be happy.....which is causing motivation issues.

Changes is discipline at home and at school are causing other issues on top of this that are more behavoral. The overly nurturing nanny style is preventing kids having learning experiences and to an extent supporting childhood obesity (ofering childen choices in foods etc). It's a mjor concern here...

Wooops we are totally off topic now ... woops

 

[onemoretime]

"societal compatibility issue" - sounds very George Orwell-ian.

Time for a rant...

We in the Anglosphere have propagated this conceptualization of E. A. Blair which doesn't stem from the guy's philosophies at all, but rather a framing of those ideas by those associated with Reagan and Thatcher. For one, Orwell was a committed democratic socialist until the day of his death (forgive me if I'm just repeating things you already know), and as such, generally supported collective policies. What he did not support was the use of language and propaganda to consistently lie to the citizenry in order that they support the actions of the government which were contrary to their own interests.

As a socialist, Orwell understood that there were some things that a person was just going to have to put up with, even with personal reservations, for the benefit of all. What he didn't tolerate was the imposition of restrictions simply for the reinforcement of the powered elite, nor the use of memes to enforce these restrictions.

Medication to function well within the reality of the modern post-industrialized state, something that is highly unnatural given our cognitive evolution, seems to be one of those things that are of the former category. Not only that, but it comes down to the question of choice: you can always simply not take your pills.

Co-ordination issues are P related I beleive.... seen a few write up with links to that. My dysleixia means I've got wroten hand eye co-ordiantion, actually there is a school of thought that says if kids with dyslexia do hand eye work outs it helps with the whole thing.

I've heard the same. Would be interested to see the numbers.

I was meaning UK parenting styles... we've gone from a driven - acheivement orientated style - promoting values of advancement, into parents just wanting kids to be happy.....which is causing motivation issues.

American (middle-class) parents are very achievement-oriented (contrary to the stories of woe often portrayed on TV, which serves merely to freak people out and keep them watching), and we still have similar issues. I still think it's just an issue of kids being kids.

Changes is discipline at home and at school are causing other issues on top of this that are more behavoral. The overly nurturing nanny style is preventing kids having learning experiences and to an extent supporting childhood obesity (ofering childen choices in foods etc). It's a mjor concern here...

I honestly think that such reports are just to keep the punters mad at their TVs, and as such still watching. Has there ever been a period in history where someone wasn't complaining that the current generation of children was being mollycoddled?

Wooops we are totally off topic now ... woops

Best place to be

 

[Lauren Ashley]

Not notice anything suspicious about those sample sizes at all? Absolutely sample size of c.5700, then spikes to 9000 and it really is all over the place after that.... will pick my way through the wider report, but the reporting is B-A-D.... I'm not saying that the N theory doesn't hold true....

Just wanted to screw around with the table a bit - maybe I got it wrong.
I basically meant it as a reply to Marm's post:

LOL so you are doing analysis on highly questionable data? What the point?

Also the sample sizes are different so dividing one against another is bogus... (but thats my j-ness coming out - and I don't have a lot of it)...

Sorry will shut up, dont' get what you are trying to express, but I'm pretty sure the data in the research needs more explanation to be able to draw very much from it...

and this is the proportion of gifted kids as a percentage of the whole sample

ENFP 5%
INTP 4%
ENTP 4%
INFP 3%
INTJ 3%
ISTJ 2%
ENTJ 2%
INFJ 2%
ENFJ 2%
ESTJ 1%
ESFJ 1%
ESTP 1%
ISTP 1%
ISFJ 1%
ESFP 1%
ISFP 1%

Bottom line xNxP are bright....

Gifted sample = 4828 = which is the column marked N = gifted
Normative sample was 9320 as per the survey... still don't know what the gifted sample means

Tinkerbell, so the study is valid as long as your type is somewhere near the top?

Lol. These "What type is le smartie" discussions are so laughable.

 

[tinkerbell]

Well get busted eventually.....

"Medication to function well within the reality of the modern post-industrialized state, something that is highly unnatural given our cognitive evolution, seems to be one of those things that are of the former category. Not only that, but it comes down to the question of choice: you can always simply not take your pills."

Kida what I mean about Orwell-ian... not in terms of the politics, more contrained conformity... just as much Huxley too.... saw the dawning of control over individualisation.

Yea every generation moans about kids education... in the same way kids blame their parents... but there are cycles in ecconomics... affluent societies flux into appathy due to lack of drive for the basic needs... too much causes lethargy....

Personally I think we should bring back child labour.... good honest income.. pay there keep... chimneys are much safer these days.....LOL - I am of course taking the piss....

I do think that we need to inject motivation in the UK, we seriously do not have the same culture as you guys... so apathy really can be a huge issue.... be interesting to see how it turns out.... given the population's top heaviness... which I beleive isn't the case in the US either... but I don't know

 

[tinkerbell]

Tinkerbell, so the study is valid as long as your type is somewhere near the top?

Lol. These "What type is le smartie" discussions are so laughable.

No, not at all, which was my point about 10 post back...

we have c.4000 gifted children - WTF? 9000 in the normative sample.... is that a uneuqe sample that is independant form the gifted

I put the lists together because I got horribly picky with AVID, so I thought I'll do what he wanted to see - the longer way that is more accurate...

No amount of analysing bad data will make it right...

It may still be valid data but I coulnd't see the definition of gifted, if it was independant of the normative and why table 3 (which I beleive is the REALLY wrong one) has more responces then respondents...

All in all I'd say insufficient infromation to make the gifted sample valid for our purposes...

PS: if we assume the gifted sample is valid... all it really says is the xNxP are more likely to be gifted....

 

[Lauren Ashley]

All in all I'd say insufficient infromation to make the gifted sample valid for our purposes...

PS: if we assume the gifted sample is valid... all it really says is the xNxP are more likely to be gifted....

So the gifted sample is valid? Hmmm...

All of these discussions seem like people seeing what they want to see because it gives them some sort of validation.

This bears repeating:

Considering that 'type' is something so intangible that there is no absolutely reliable personality test out there yet and therefore no reliable basic statistics, I really don't see how anyone can make any subsequent statistics, present them like facts and draw any conclusions from them.

I test INTJ very frequently, yet I am not one. Same for my friend; tested ISFJ on the official MBTI yet is ISTJ. People mistype all the time. There is no way to reliably test type, so there is no way to start comparing that to "giftedness" (whatever that means) and other forms of intelligence.

 

[onemoretime]

Well get busted eventually.....

"Medication to function well within the reality of the modern post-industrialized state, something that is highly unnatural given our cognitive evolution, seems to be one of those things that are of the former category. Not only that, but it comes down to the question of choice: you can always simply not take your pills."

Kida what I mean about Orwell-ian... not in terms of the politics, more contrained conformity... just as much Huxley too.... saw the dawning of control over individualisation.

How much of that is an actual issue, and how much of that is tribalism? Individualism is very much a defining characteristic of Western society, and in particular, the societies of Great Britain and its former colonial holdings. In the context of when Orwell and Huxley wrote, when British democracy seemed incapable of handling the stresses of the industrial era, along with the loss of Empire, is it no wonder then, that writers of the period clung to that individualism? The Huxleys of 1938 and 1958 were very different writers, for sure.

Yea every generation moans about kids education... in the same way kids blame their parents... but there are cycles in ecconomics... affluent societies flux into appathy due to lack of drive for the basic needs... too much causes lethargy....

I can't help but think that we're in somewhat unmarked territory currently, as industrialization changed everything. As we deindustrialize, we're faced with a situation whereby scarcity for staples is essentially zero; however, demand for labor increasingly diminishes as technology increases. As such, in the UK, what does a working-class or middle-class youth have to strive for? Selling mobile phones? Going to university in order to become a glorified mobile-phone salesman?

I do think that we need to inject motivation in the UK, we seriously do not have the same culture as you guys... so apathy really can be a huge issue.... be interesting to see how it turns out.... given the population's top heaviness... which I beleive isn't the case in the US either... but I don't know

It's not that much different either - our class structure is simply different (since ours is much more racially oriented). Look at New York in the 1970s if you want to see an apathetic city. Meanwhile, we've still encountered the same structural issues, but tried to wave them away with huge amounts of debt. If anything, the only main difference is that we've still bought into the bullshit that there's an inherent value in any kind of work, no matter how menial it is... even though we talk out the other side of the mouth whenever we say something to the effect of "well, the world needs ditchdiggers too".

 

[tinkerbell]

So the gifted sample is valid? Hmmm...

No I didn't say that, I said right now the gifted sample is dubious... and undefined....therfore ought not to be used to draw inference from.

IF is were valid, all that can realy be sumised from it is the NP thing...

As for typing reliability, yes I have issues with that too, but there is no reason to assuming a higher or lower level of mistyping in either sample.... ie they are both likely to be wrong proportionately so...

 

[Lauren Ashley]

No I didn't say that, I said right now the gifted sample is dubious... and undefined....therfore ought not to be used to draw inference from.

IF is were valid, all that can realy be sumised from it is the NP thing...

Right. And if the study were valid, INxxs round out the top four. What's the point in making either statement if both are questionable?

 

[tinkerbell]

Right. And if the study were valid, INxxs round out the top four. What's the point in stating either one if they are both questionable?

what do you mean either? I don't know the two variables you mean? I added a bit to the above post



IF the gifted sample is valid, there is a greater number of I's in it than the norm... gifted would be a realtively even spread between E and I, in the norm sample there is a skew towrds E types....

 

[Lauren Ashley]

what do you mean either? I don't know the two variables you mean? I added a bit to the above post

I edited that for clarity.