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Decent female role models

Thalassa

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by all means. Then the thread will have some purpose other than the gutless piss-ranting it started with.

:grabs top-hat, cane, and phonograph with Al Jolson record:

:moonwalk:
 

Ghost of the dead horse

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^Ina, This is funney, probably some ingrained woman procedure that's hard-coded in them to prevent gaining power.

See, the men didn't start it pissy at all. That's projecting, honey.

Now you go rant all day about spineless men or whatever floats your boat.

Edit: and of course you're not my honey, but you're just dieing to be a target of some patronizing.
 

INA

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:grabs top-hat, cane, and phonograph with Al Jolson record:

:moonwalk:

[shakes it to the left]
.................................................................................[shakes it to the right]

[shimmies]
 

Haphazard

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People are portraying themselves as too much of an individualist. Really, if person named Blaise Pascal has inspired you, and you've wanted in part to follow in his footprints (even if not for the most part), then that person is a role model for you, for all the important measures.

Responses to this thread seem to indicate an abnormally high proportion of original thinkers, which I believe is not the case.

Most the people who think that they don't have "role models" think of it because of dismissing Britney Spears.

Then they talk of Albert Einstein in good manner.

People of all kinds neglect the kind of influence that other people have on them.

People standardly reject the affect of commercials on them.

In standardized studies, the effect of commercials have been found to be quite much more than the people have suspected.

I'm hoping that the kind of "independence" of the people in here isn't just as paper-thin as that.

I've worked in the marketing business for years.

"yes, I'm not at all affected by commercials. I think on my own. That's why I select Saab/Pepsi/AT&T/whatever."

No, see, the thing is that I've always wanted to be some kind of artist or another while I was growing up. Then, what happens is when you look at artists, you do not see glowing examples of character, you see terribly flawed people clawing their way through life to recognition, often ending in despair, insanity, and an overwhelming emptiness.

I can admire their work, but who in their right mind would want to model their lives after that?!



I will leave it at this. I see the bad in people much easier than I see the good. I have anti-role models, not role models. If that still counts, then so be it.
 

Katsuni

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There's really a severe lack of strong female role models that aren't strong in the "ZOMG I CAN OUTDO ANY MALE!" a la xena, or of the "My super power is a bikini!" a la everyone else...



There are, however, a few.

Ripley in ALIENS (not so much in alien or the later ones), and Naomi Armitage from Armitage III are good ones which were actually done right.

Especially Armitage, she was my hero(ine) for a long time, and still do love the character ^^

At least in the first movie, not sure about the second, haven't heard anything good about that one. (Stick to Polymatrix not dual matrix)

That being said though, I'm having a hard time thinking of others... I guess Feena and Lilly, both from Grandia would work.

I could include my own writings I guess, but I think I've only managed to successfully pull off an actual 'good' female role model maybe... once. I was going to say twice but one of them goes insane so I guess that doesn't count XD

But yeah... female role models kinda... suck. It's always either overkill on being "save me!" or trying to outdo the men. So few are the cases of being 'strong' in a natural way without forcing the matter by trying to pretend strong = male tendencies.



EDIT: Only just read a few other posts now... originally posted based on the original topic >.>

Seriously wth people. This "gender war" nonsense has REALLY got to stop >.<

I swear, yeu're nearly as bad as the Drazi on babylon 5...

Every 5 years... they get all the Drazi togeather... and they put a bunch of green and purple sashes into a barrel. Yeu reach in and grab one randomly. If yeu get a green sash, yeu're on the green team, if yeu get a purple one, yeu're on the purple team. There's a 50/50 split. Then they beat the crap out of each other and whichever side wins gets to control the government.

Yes, it's total absolute 100% 50/50 blind pick chance. Even the leaders are blind pick as one sash for green and purple will randomly have a leader's mark on it. Soooooo yeah. That's whot this bickering looks like. Please stop fighting just for the sake of fighting. Even if yeu were the same gender, yeu'd still fight just over a different excuse.
 

Mole

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Commander-in-Chief

You could do worse than to take the Commander-in-Chief of Australia's Armed Forces, Her Excellency Ms Quentin Bryce AC, as a role model.
 

Salomé

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^Ina, This is funney, probably some ingrained woman procedure that's hard-coded in them to prevent gaining power.

See, the men didn't start it pissy at all. That's projecting, honey.

Now you go rant all day about spineless men or whatever floats your boat.

Edit: and of course you're not my honey, but you're just dieing to be a target of some patronizing.
Didn't we tell you to lock the liquor cabinet?
The only thing dying in this thread, is you. You're way outta your depth pal. Not waving, but drowning.
 

Chuckums

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Mrs. Palin FUR sure!

1008_sarah_palin_landov_full2.jpg
 

Xander

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In a slight tweak (some may call it a major tweak) of the original concept...

Everyone has role models (yes you do). Whether it's your mum or the neighbour or your teacher. Anyone who has a quality we admire, respect or are attracted to we will in some way emulate (unless you're a sociopath, in which case if you press Alt+F4 you'll find where you should be right now).

Mentioned by Haphazard, the idea of Anti role models... equally as valid. Someone who displays a characteristic or trait you consider inferior in some way or just not wanted.

It's not really a matter of selecting a person and then modelling yourself after them but people do associate behaviour with outcome. So if you see someone who's arrogant then if they are always bragging about say their success in work, you avoid becoming like them. Sometimes more than necessary so you avoid such high flier jobs even if they would suit you.
---------------------------------------

Now to the idea of why role models are needed, as I stated before role models serve as points in space, like words they define instances which don't necessarily exist but are necessary for communication. I mean how can two people talk about "powerful women" at the moment? You've got every definition from those who stand on a pile of corpses in high heels to those who wouldn't touch heels with a barge pole but who are serene no matter what. There just seems to be a lack of clarity.

Now this is not to say that there is no lack of clarity in male role models but I would have thought my own vested interest in that area would cloud my judgement (not that any area is immune just I would figure it less likely to do so in this).

As for certain role models being "not good enough", well it's an area of personal opinion, like so many others. I don't really get why it's so contentious.
 

Ghost of the dead horse

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Testosterone bumps up status-seeking behavior, not aggressive risk-taking
Do those with more testosterone coursing through their bodies make riskier, more aggressive decisions? Popular culture and even rodent studies seem to have borne out this trite truism about the sex hormone, but researchers in Switzerland and the U.K. tested whether this perception really held true for humans in a controlled environment—and arrived at counter-intuitive findings.

"We wanted to verify how the hormone affects social behavior," Christoph Eisenegger, a neuroscientist at the University of Zurich and lead author of a new paper on the subject, said in a prepared statement. "If one were to believe the common opinion, we would expect subjects who received testosterone to adopt aggressive, egocentric and risky strategies."

To test the idea, the research team gave 121 women either 0.5 milligrams of testosterone or a placebo and had them play an ultimatum bargaining game. With real money on the line, one player was in charge of proposing how the two would split the funds via a computer interface. The other player could reject an offer if she thought it unfair—and if the game ended in a stalemate, no money was distributed. Given the common wisdom about testosterone, the players who had gotten the testosterone boost should be more likely to take a riskier, antisocial approach and lowball the initial offer in an effort to keep more money for themselves.

The behavior of the test subjects, however, did not ultimately confirm the stereotypes, according to the results, published online Tuesday in Nature (Scientific American is part of Nature Publishing Group).

Those who had received testosterone actually made "significantly higher offers" than those who had gotten the placebo (offering an average of 39 percent of the money and 34 percent, respectively)—even after controlling for baseline testosterone levels and perceived testosterone consumption, the paper authors noted. These testosterone-fueled offers worked, "thereby reducing bargaining conflicts and increasing the efficiency of social interactions," the researchers wrote. They attributed this shift to a desire of the testosterone group to maintain their images—by avoiding rejection—aligning with the so-called social status hypothesis.

But might the different bargaining approach be based on an increase in altruism? The authors refute this explanation, noting that if this were the case they would have seen more offers accepted under the influence of testosterone (which they didn't, finding, in fact no significant change in the ways the receivers responded to the offers when compared with a similar test of 180 women who had received no testosterone).

This study isn't the first to cut away at some of the myths about testosterone. Previous research has found that although the hormone is often prevalent in violent individuals—both male and female—it alone doesn't lead to violence.

Does this mean testosterone has no role in complicating such social negotiations? It is likely more complex than that, Michael Naef, an economist at Royal Holloway, University of London and co-author of the study, noted in a prepared statement. Indeed, the cultural concept of testosterone itself might be to blame for some antisocial and aggressive behavior. The researchers found that of those who strongly believed they had gotten the testosterone pill—whether or not they had it or the placebo—actually "behaved much more unfairly," the authors wrote. And: "In a society where qualities and manners of behavior are increasingly traced to biological causes and thereby partly legitimated, this should make us sit up and take notice," Naef said.
Publicada por Sérgio RSV em 08:25 0 comentários
Does Testosterone Have a Bad Rap?

By Constance Holden
ScienceNOW Daily News
8 December 2009
Testosterone has a reputation for causing violent and antisocial behavior. But that's a bad rap, according to a new study. Women given the hormone acted more fairly in an economic game than did those given a placebo. Interestingly, however, women in the placebo group were more antisocial if they thought they had received testosterone, indicating that our negative attitudes toward the hormone have a powerful sway on behavior.

Scientists led by Ernst Fehr, a professor of neuroeconomics at the University of Zurich in Switzerland, suspected that testosterone is really about gaining and maintaining social status. And although status concerns lead to aggression, they theorized that testosterone does not necessarily make a person more self-seeking.

The team tested this idea by recruiting 121 women in their 20s to play a game that tests fairness. Two players, A and B, have to agree on the division of 10 money units, in this case Swiss francs. A proposes a division; B can only accept or reject. If B rejects the offer, neither gets any money. All the women were given a dose of either testosterone or a placebo under the tongue. Then 60 women designated as A played the game three times with three different partners, communicating through a computer.

A "fair" offer would be a 50-50 split. So, according to common wisdom, A would make more unfair offers if she were high on testosterone. The status hypothesis predicts the opposite: An unfair offer is more likely to evoke a rejection, which is an affront to A's status. So A is more likely to make an offer that B will accept.

The status hypothesis won. The women given the testosterone made significantly higher offers on average, the group reports online today in Nature: 3.9 francs versus 3.4 francs for the placebo group. "Our interpretation of this finding is that testosterone renders concerns for social status more prominent," says Fehr.

But the results changed depending on what the women believed they had received. Based on questionnaires, the researchers divided the volunteers into women who thought they had received testosterone and those who thought they had received placebo. Those who got the hormone but thought they got a placebo were the most fair; in more than 60% of their offers, they proposed a 50-50 split of the francs. Women who got the placebo but thought they got testosterone were the most unfair; in only 10% of the offers did they propose an even split of the money. That indicates, says Fehr, that the subjects' negative assumptions about testosterone--not the hormone itself--led to antisocial behavior.

Fehr says the group used women because the pharmacokinetics of testosterone doses in women are well-understood. He hopes to do the same experiment with men.

The research should help "demystify the wrong ideas about ... the 'antisocial' hormone testosterone," says Jack van Honk, a neuroscientist at Utrecht University in the Netherlands. But economist Niklas Zethraeus of the Stockholm School of Economics isn't convinced that testosterone influences fairness one way or the other. His group published a study this year using a larger sample that found no connection between sex hormone levels and economic behavior.

In short, men are more fair in a competitive situation than women, thanks to their testosterone. This is in contrast to the popular view of how the hormone works. Perhaps this is the explanation, not the role models.

Edit: an addition: The summary told nothing of men compared to women - that was synthesis on my part, on the basis of common knowledge that men have higher levels of testosterone. Other issues may affect the behavior of men and women, as well.
 

Xander

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That's a nice survey there Santtu. It's a little "left field" but it's got interesting implications to be sure.
 

Ghost of the dead horse

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I quoted it mainly to establish the point that there are indeed reasons why women would act in a harsh, unfair manner. This point was contested by many people in the thread who insisted that men and women would act similarly in a heated situation.

If this test with testosterone is to be believed, those who have higher testosterone act in a more fair manner, whereas those who try to emulate high-testosterone-like-behavior, actually behave in most unkind manner.
 

Mole

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Drag queen.

On the other side of the world, I am immune to Ann Coulters politics. However I can see she is very entertaining.

And of course today, entertainment is politics.
 

Haphazard

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In a slight tweak (some may call it a major tweak) of the original concept...

Everyone has role models (yes you do). Whether it's your mum or the neighbour or your teacher. Anyone who has a quality we admire, respect or are attracted to we will in some way emulate (unless you're a sociopath, in which case if you press Alt+F4 you'll find where you should be right now).

Mentioned by Haphazard, the idea of Anti role models... equally as valid. Someone who displays a characteristic or trait you consider inferior in some way or just not wanted.

All my role models are women and all my anti-role models are men.

Wow. I must be awful.



And to Santtu: where do the pretty, fair, and virtuous women come from, then? There have been so many stories about them, but in my experience, women with extra testosterone in their systems are not very pretty.

Also, extrapolating these results to men doesn't seem right. Or even at all; another test with a larger sample showed no difference, didn't that article say?
 

Xander

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I quoted it mainly to establish the point that there are indeed reasons why women would act in a harsh, unfair manner. This point was contested by many people in the thread who insisted that men and women would act similarly in a heated situation.

If this test with testosterone is to be believed, those who have higher testosterone act in a more fair manner, whereas those who try to emulate high-testosterone-like-behavior, actually behave in most unkind manner.
So perhaps those who are "validated" as good strong women by men are in fact more suffused with the "male" hormone... perhaps bit of a self congratulating point of view?

Something that occurred to me was that it may be that because there's so many "suzy home maker" generalisations left around that those women who want to go do something else end up being definable more by their contradictions than affirmations to our (the people's) expectations and hence seem more negative anyway.
 

Xander

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All my role models are women and all my anti-role models are men.

Wow. I must be awful.
Definitely.

Quit reading answers, it's just postulating and thought. Nothing concrete.
And to Santtu: where do the pretty, fair, and virtuous women come from, then? There have been so many stories about them, but in my experience, women with extra testosterone in their systems are not very pretty.
Mutants, the lot of them.

Next.
Also, extrapolating these results to men doesn't seem right. Or even at all; another test with a larger sample showed no difference, didn't that article say?
We're a different species remember? Isn't that the usual reason?
 

Haphazard

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Mutants, the lot of them.

Next.

Must be aliens or something. Women with high testosterone levels tend to have far too much body hair, become obese, and live in extreme pain if it's not reduced.

We're a different species remember? Isn't that the usual reason?

So why are we extrapolating results to two completely different species? It's presumptuous.
 

Xander

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Must be aliens or something. Women with high testosterone levels tend to have far too much body hair, become obese, and live in extreme pain if it's not reduced.
Lol... Isn't that a rather extreme variety. You know those women who originate from some small village in the middle of nowhere?
So why are we extrapolating results to two completely different species? It's presumptuous.
Well the dolphins complained when we did it to them and suggested we did it to ourselves instead.

What?
 
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