Conformity

[Ruthie]

My whole life "conformity" has been the big, bad villain.

But in the past couple years, I've started thinking that conformity is not only necessary but almost refreshing - like it's a sign of humility in an era of narcissism.

Anyone else get that? What's the big deal about non-conformists?

 

[wolfy]

Depends on the degree of conforming. Aligning yourself with others and the environment is a sign of maturity. But using people and the environment to align yourself is a sign of immaturity.

 

[Mole]

What's the big deal about non-conformists?

If everyone is a non-conformist, then no one is a non-conformist.

 

[wolfy]

If everyone is a non-conformist, then no one is a non-conformist.

I get what you are saying, I think it is possible for everyone to be non conformists if they are all seen to be not confirming to a cultural standard. Depends on what you think of when you reflect on the word confirming.

 

[Polaris]

A non-conformist is one who, because he doesn't wish to be defined by others, actively seeks to distance himself from his social context. In doing so, he hopes to launch himself in an original direction, one with no foundation in society. All he succeeds in doing, however, is to make use of others as a springboard to identity; for to push something away and hold it at a distance is to remain in contact with it at every moment.

 

[Infidel]

Conformity has a bad rep. It's often useful and an easy way to ease tensions between different types of people. Unless you really, strongly feel another way is better for you, for whatever reason, it's probably better to go with the flow and conform. Blending in can be very advantageous.

 

[TickTock]

I have always been a non-conformist, not for the sake of it or even out of choice, Im just against much of what the majority value - because they are stupid . I don't see getting on as conforming, simply being with likeminded people.

Edit: Nunki, your definition only holds up if someone is not conforming because they are doing so to create an identity. Non conforming isn't a way of life in itself. Having an eccentric character inevitably means not conforming to society but that is never the intention. Conforming is accepting the values of the current culture and anyone who thinks for themself will find at least one thing they don't agree with. That is to say conforming generally means not having to think for oneself.

 

[Xander]

Oh there's a big difference to a bunch of people declaring their individuals because they all dress the same, have tattoos and piercings and a bunch of non conformists.

The former is a group formed from those who want identity and something to conform to but who want to feel special and different but with the safety of knowing that they're not alone.

The latter is a group of independent thinkers who don't accept things because they're told it what it is but they don't reject it either. They weigh each new "thing" on it's merits and decide whether or not to adopt it.

It all depends upon whether you're deliberately not conforming to make some style choice or vote of discontentment or whether you don't conform because you just don't think that way.

 

[Polaris]

Edit: Nunki, your definition only holds up if someone is not conforming because they are doing so to create an identity. Non conforming isn't a way of life in itself. Having an eccentric character inevitably means not conforming to society but that is never the intention. Conforming is accepting the values of the current culture and anyone who thinks for themself will find at least one thing they don't agree with. That is to say conforming generally means not having to think for oneself.

I wouldn't say that a conformist hasn't carefully considered where he stands on things. Like anyone else, a conformist reaches his position on the basis of thoughts and choices, and these thoughts and choices may be simple or elaborate. Where the conformist truly differs from his counterpart is in the place where he seeks his self-realization: he tries to melt into a general group, while the non-conformist models himself after individuals--these individuals being themselves non-conformists (otherwise non-conformism would amount to conformism).

That, of course, raises the question of how non-conformists ever got started; you can't very well have an infinite regress of them copying one another, for that would beg the question of how the first one came to be. If we look at the growth of a human being, it becomes quite apparent that we all begin as conformists; we do nothing more than internalize our parents, and this is how we learn to walk and talk. By internalizing these traits, however, they lose something of their former nature, for a copy can never be its object. And so right from the start, a small measure of originality emerges, and this same motion is repeated each time we try to mimic each other. Furthermore, in being a unique perspective on people rather than one person alone, it becomes not only possible but necessary to intermix the traits of others and to do so in ways that can't be repeated. Last of all, even if it were possible for me to internalize a perfect copy of a personality, this copy would have to live through different life experiences than its original. These life experiences, because unique, would necessarily lead that same personality to walk down a different path in life.

So originality amounts to trying and failing on principle to be like other people. Even those who claim they want to be original are trying to be like someone else; their wish is a mere counterfeit of something they've heard.

 

[Xander]

That, of course, raises the question of how non-conformists ever got started; you can't very well have an infinite regress of them copying one another, for that would beg the question of how the first one came to be. If we look at the growth of a human being, it becomes quite apparent that we all begin as conformists; we do nothing more than internalize our parents, and this is how we learn to walk and talk. By internalizing these traits, however, they lose something of their former nature, for a copy can never be its object. And so right from the start, a small measure of originality emerges, and this same motion is repeated each time we try to mimic each other. Furthermore, in being a unique perspective on people rather than one person alone, it becomes not only possible but necessary to intermix the traits of others and to do so in ways that can't be repeated. Last of all, even if it were possible for me to internalize a perfect copy of a personality, this copy would have to live through different life experiences than its original. These life experiences, because unique, would necessarily lead that same personality to walk down a different path in life.

So originality amounts to trying and failing on principle to be like other people. Even those who claim they want to be original are trying to be like someone else; their wish is a mere counterfeit of something they've heard.

I think you misunderstand how someone gets to be non-conformist.

Check the Socratic method and the idea "The unexamined life is not worth living". It's not a statement nor a method to deliberately set your course against that of other people, it is just the ideal that you look at what you do in honesty. It is true that this does tend to lead to some bones of contention with society as a whole but this is true regardless of conformity or non conformity. Perhaps the complaints of non conformists are more noticeable because they tend to be in starker contrast to their surroundings creating a false sense of imbalance?

In either case whether you are classified as a conformist or a non conformist has less to do with whether you do the same thing as other people, that's just the result, and more to do with whether you accept things because an authority has given them to you or whether you try to reason it out for yourself. Personally I would strongly state that the latter is superior regardless of the outcome but I think that's partially my own preference clouding the issue.

 

[Ruthie]

I'll let you all debate the definition and the foundation of nonconformity.

But, there does seem to be a common theme of de-valuing the norms of society - whether intentionally going against the grain, or simply going ones own way, which happens to be a different direction than the "mainstream."

So, here's my question: if a personal value is in conflict with a societal value, why is it assumed that the more advanced and respectable choice is to remain in line with the personal value?

Personal values seem a little empty and unchallenging to me. I think it would be pretty easy to live my life in accordance with my own beliefs.

 

[Wild horses]

When I was young the only thing I wanted most in the world was to conform and I tried really hard at it too... It didn't happen and so I had to make my version of non-conforming ok... but my version of non-conforming was not the 'cool version' (Cos everyone knows that there is a cool version and a definite NON cool version rite! ) Ok, now my father (An ISTJ) always wanted to be average... (and was anything but HAHAHA) But I really admired his humility... Like it was the best thing.... esp since he had so much to be un-humble about... and so although I don't often conform I really value those that do! As I always saw my non-conformity as a let down in some ways to my father! HAHAHAHA Excuse the F

 

[Xander]

I'll let you all debate the definition and the foundation of nonconformity.

But, there does seem to be a common theme of de-valuing the norms of society - whether intentionally going against the grain, or simply going ones own way, which happens to be a different direction than the "mainstream."

So, here's my question: if a personal value is in conflict with a societal value, why is it assumed that the more advanced and respectable choice is to remain in line with the personal value?

Personal values seem a little empty and unchallenging to me. I think it would be pretty easy to live my life in accordance with my own beliefs.

Because if your view is more advanced and respectable then so too are you considered likewise.

Why does everyone try to appear clever? Because it's desirable as a trait.

(And who says anything about values...personally I was talking more maxims and principles... values are just silly and squishy!!!)

 

[Kastor]

I dunno, it's like... I never exactly 'fought' against conformity, my feelings and wants just never went along with it, making people assume that I'm really trying.

 

[Nonsensical]

We're all conformists. No matter what we say or think, or would like to say and think, about ourselves..we're all conformists. We get jobs, make money, drive cars, eat at restaurants, buy clothes..it's the modern lifestyle..that so many people can be doing the same thing in sync.

We may think differently in our heads, like Winston in 1984, but until we actually turn around and start wading back up the stream, we're all conformists.

Don't get the idea in your head...people love to think of themselves as non-conformists. We all conform, everyday, all the time...because we're dead in the head.

 

[Xander]

We're all conformists. No matter what we say or think, or would like to say and think, about ourselves..we're all conformists. We get jobs, make money, drive cars, eat at restaurants, buy clothes..it's the modern lifestyle..that so many people can be doing the same thing in sync.

We may think differently in our heads, like Winston in 1984, but until we actually turn around and start wading back up the stream, we're all conformists.

Don't get the idea in your head...people love to think of themselves as non-conformists. We all conform, everyday, all the time...because we're dead in the head.

Or for lack of a decent alternative.

 

[Ruthie]

The beauty of conformity is that it asks everyone to give a little. It's not as though there's one person (or group of people) who gets to behave exactly as they would like, and everyone else has to follow them.

 

[disregard]

Why you choose to conform or not to conform is what matters.

If you choose to not make too much eye contact with people in China in order to show respect for their culture and to avoid offending anyone, then that form of conformity could be construed as a good thing.

If you choose not to defend a girl that is getting gang-raped at a dance because no one else is, then it can be construed in many ways.. a) as cowardice; b) as looking out for your own survival; etc.

I think that (non)conformity is an interesting topic because it polarises people and really tells you a lot about those commenting on it!

For example, I loved the bit in New Moon where the friend she's shopping with goes on a tangent about people that say they hate shopping and how zombie movies are metaphors for consumerism and yada yada.

Basically she's saying that you can like to shop and still be an individual. That people judge others based on singular hobbies/characteristics rather than seeing them as a whole and appreciate that they can be a person with a mind of your own yet still love to shop.

Reminds me of a coworker I had that would tell me how stupid people that wear Uggs are. Of course, in his Dr. Marten-wearing, motorcycle-riding state of superiority, he is allowed to cast such judgment.

If they keep your feet warm and are comfortable, why do you hate them so much? Is it because you think people wear them to make a fashion statement because that's why you wear Dr. Martens to work and tell everyone you ride a motorcycle?

 

[Tamske]

Conformism is not evil and not good. It's just a way of interacting with people.

I don't care about clothing, so I mimic the trend. Easy, you'll blend in and everybody accepts it.
I do care about what I do with my leisure time. I won't watch the football game just because everybody does it and wants to talk about it the next day. I hate football. I will be the odd one out the next day, but that's a small price compared to having watch the stupid thing. This works the other way around, too. I won't hate Harry Potter just because it's popular. I'm not going to be non-conformist for the sake of being non-conformist and unique and all that.
If I agree with the crowd, I'll blend in. If I don't agree with the crowd, I'll stand out. If the issue doesn't interest me, I'll take the road of least resistance and blend in.

About a more important issue: feminism...
I'm a woman. I've done theoretical physics. There were three women in that field in our university compared to 30 men.
Now I'm a teacher. I've done that thing all feminists abhor: I went to a more 'feminine' job for 'feminine' reasons (wanting to stay with husband, wanting to be able to care for children...)
It's not because people want "more women" in theoretical physics that *I* should be the one doing it, damned!

 

[wildcat]

We're all conformists. No matter what we say or think, or would like to say and think, about ourselves..we're all conformists. We get jobs, make money, drive cars, eat at restaurants, buy clothes..it's the modern lifestyle..that so many people can be doing the same thing in sync.

We may think differently in our heads, like Winston in 1984, but until we actually turn around and start wading back up the stream, we're all conformists.

Don't get the idea in your head...people love to think of themselves as non-conformists. We all conform, everyday, all the time...because we're dead in the head.

You are so right.

I do not get jobs.
I do not make money.
I do not drive cars.
I do not eat at restaurants.
I definitely do not buy clothes.

And yet I fail in my endeavour not to conform.

The man clad in the blue cap and the blue overall is outside the window I have closed. With the hell machine.

Xander kindly revealed me the name of the modern lifestyle.
It is called the leaf blower.

I hear the modern lifestyle all right. And yet I refuse to shoot the janitor.
You may rightly say my refusal to shoot the janitor is plain conformity.

There is no escape.