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Having a ranking of better and worse people

Virtual ghost

Complex paradigm
Joined
Jun 6, 2008
Messages
19,769
Bottom of Personal Ladder
1.People with severe emotional/psychological disturbances that are not managed very well and have inadvertently hurt others as a result
2.People with low EQs
2.Intellectually closed-minded
3.Unfriendly
4.Moody/gloomy
5.People with superiority complexes
6.Hypercritical, unnecessarily and excessively sarcastic people


How do you get along with INTJs ? (just asking)
 

The_Liquid_Laser

Glowy Goopy Goodness
Joined
Jul 11, 2007
Messages
3,376
MBTI Type
ENTP
Doesn't evaluation come immediately if there's some bad signs for the kind of transaction you're having with the person? I mean, the kind of overwhelming bad signs like posted in the YLJ example, something you would actively had to resist in order to not "notice" them.

I do tend to ascribe adjectives to people based on their more distinct traits, but in my mind these adjectives usually do not necessarily affect my relationship with the person. I might describe one person as "stingy" and another as "generous", but I'm just as likely to associate with the former person as the latter.

I don't rank people as "good" or "bad" as these labels seem arbitrary to me.
 

DiscoBiscuit

Meat Tornado
Joined
Apr 13, 2009
Messages
14,794
Enneagram
8w9
^Your professor was not being impersonal, but prejudiced. There's a difference.

The hidden agenda relates to political manuevering.

I have found the trouble with E**Js to be that they refuse to accept that people perceive things in different, equally valid ways. They refuse to question their own reaction to events as having any possible reasonable alternative. ("Your delivery was scathing! Ergo, you are a tactless individual!", not "I found your delivery to be scathing, what does that say about me and you and our relationship?") Is this because they embrace the cultural norm, or do they enforce cultural norms through their own dogmatic approach? Probably a bit of both.
In any event, it's just a recipe for intolerance.

The trouble with this post is that this conclusion doesn't apply to all EXXJ's.

Generalizations, they never work.

I can accept differing conclusions and viewpoints. If my opinion was the only one that was right, this would be a very boring, and depressing world to live in.
 

wildcat

New member
Joined
Jun 8, 2007
Messages
3,622
MBTI Type
INTP
Hitler is his idol? :huh:
According to the National Socialist idea, the will of the Fuehrer is the will of the German people, and logically he who does not stand with the ideology of the Fuehrer is no longer a German.
Likewise the will of Santtu is the will of the people, and he who does not stand with the ideology of Santtu is no longer a person.

National Socialism is the ideology of the ladder. There is not good or bad people.
World is not black and white.
 

Jaguar

Active member
Joined
May 5, 2007
Messages
20,647
Likewise the will of Santtu is the will of the people, and he who does not stand with the ideology of Santtu is no longer a person.


If that's the case, I am definitely not a person! I'm a Jaguar. :D
 

poppy

triple nerd score
Joined
May 30, 2009
Messages
2,215
MBTI Type
intj
Enneagram
5
EnFpEr...that's way just too much thought :laugh:

My instinctive categories would probably be "Enjoy spending time with these people" "Feel completely neutrally about these people" and "Think these people are kind of stupid, but wouldn't really have any problem working with them".

Then again my moderate narcissism enables me to just not think about other people enough to bother ranking them consciously.
 

Ghost of the dead horse

filling some space
Joined
Sep 7, 2007
Messages
3,553
MBTI Type
ENTJ
This ladder would pertain to national socialism only as much as I'd be willing to make others discriminate these same kind of "worse people".

I'm thinking more of whom to associate with.

Isn't it strange that certain problem behaviors are disadvantages and illnesses, and thus the people with those "illnesses" must be cherished, they and their problem behaviors must be appreciated and the people must be given as much space as possible to express them.

"
Look, he's not a fucktard, he might have a condition that explains his behavior! Isn't that cute. Aww. Look at how his poisonous behavior poisons the atmosphere at the workplace sooo nicely. Cute! :D "

Other problem behaviors, oh no - they're not illnesses, they are just inexcusable, like being an EJ in typoC :D
 

ilovetrannies

New member
Joined
May 13, 2009
Messages
83
MBTI Type
ISFP
This ladder would pertain to national socialism only as much as I'd be willing to make others discriminate these same kind of "worse people".

I'm thinking more of whom to associate with.

Isn't it strange that certain problem behaviors are disadvantages and illnesses, and thus the people with those "illnesses" must be cherished, they and their problem behaviors must be appreciated and the people must be given as much space as possible to express them.

"
Look, he's not a fucktard, he might have a condition that explains his behavior! Isn't that cute. Aww. Look at how his poisonous behavior poisons the atmosphere at the workplace sooo nicely. Cute! :D "

Other problem behaviors, oh no - they're not illnesses, they are just inexcusable, like being an EJ in typoC :D


What the hell is going on here? No one treats mental illness lightly or thinks its "cute." I try to be kind to people with disorders because its called empathy.

If people bother me, I stay away from them. How difficult is this for you?


Go seek therapy.
 

Ghost of the dead horse

filling some space
Joined
Sep 7, 2007
Messages
3,553
MBTI Type
ENTJ
I hate spelling stuff out, but I'll do it for you.

Wildcat compared my OP to some Nazi agenda. In his opinion, I was sorting people out to better and worse per Nazi ideology. I refuted the idea by pointing out, that I'm not calling in for a total discrimination of some people I've specified. Instead, I am using my evaluation of someone as better & worse to decide if I'm going to interact with them, enjoy their company etc. Quite a different thing. Actually, I am following your advice here (before you even gave it!)

Then I joked on how some problem behaviors that are labeled as mental handicaps (or something like that ) get POSITIVE discrimination, i.e. people get away with bad behavior because they supposedly suffer from some kind of a "medical" condition. This understanding isn't given fairly to all people - i.e. people decide arbitarily who is a "shithead" or something like that, and who is "disadvantaged", as it happened in this thread. I do not mean to mock real, ACTUALLY handicapped people; I was criticizing the way that a someone arbitrarily decides that person A is ill, lets love him and his wicked ways! The same someone would decide that person B is not ill, he is mean, lets hate him!

In other words, even more clearly, I was criticizing for someone to play the "disadvantaged" card on someone who's behavior is bad.

I would also appreciate your contribution to the discussion much more if you didn't seek ways to attack persons in the discussion.

I understand many people feel the intense desire to insult someone when they don't understand something. It plays on their insecurity; "I didn't understand something. Am I now butt of the joke? Is someone laughing at me? I'll vent it out and hate the person who wrote something I didn't understand".

Ilovetrannies, take advice.
 

ilovetrannies

New member
Joined
May 13, 2009
Messages
83
MBTI Type
ISFP
Dude, why do you care how other people are treated? The important thing is how are you treat others.

If someone has wronged me, I'll hate them for the rest of my life. I know it is irrational and very judgemental. Can't help it, I know this is the reason for the thread, ok.

I was wrong to be rude to you but no need to insult either.
 

proteanmix

Plumage and Moult
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
5,514
Enneagram
1w2
What the hell is going on here? No one treats mental illness lightly or thinks its "cute." I try to be kind to people with disorders because its called empathy.

If people bother me, I stay away from them. How difficult is this for you?


Go seek therapy.

I don't think that's what he said.

When you get into dealing with people with mental illness, your ability to "get along" is quite likely to be hampered. Think about it this way, we'll accommodate a person with a physical handicap because we can see it. If someone's blind or in a wheelchair I don't think most people mind flexing around the person. Most mental illness is shrouded in mystery and there's still strong stigma attached. I think that a mature person educated on how to work with a person with mental disabilities would be flexible just as most people are with a physical handicap. A friend of mine works with a deaf woman and was asked to speak directly in front of her so she can read her lips.

To me, this brings up the question is how accommodating am I, a non-relative coworker who only has professional contact, supposed to be? If this were a family member or friend, my investment would be different. And I hate to sound so "unsympathetic," but ultimately you're at work to work, not figure out what mood this person is in today and should you go into their office to ask a question and how are they going to respond. It's not a coworker's job to play therapist. A person's emotional contagion infects a whole work environment, but you're supposed to tolerate it because they're mentally ill? What about the effects of that environment on everyone else? Is that healthy and productive for them? Should I tolerate emotional outbursts in the work environment just because the person is mentally ill?

If I were in danger of physical violence I would be very quickly advised to take action against the person. If I had an alcoholic coworker who came back from lunch drunk everyday (lol, that happened in another department), there would definitely be an outcry. But since it's mental illness when a person is emotionally unstable you must tolerate it with sympathy, or in other words, smile while someone stabs a fork in your hand. That's what I understood Santtu to be saying, why should it be tolerated? Why are some illnesses more socially acceptable than others. Nobody's ashamed of telling how many different antidepressants they've been prescribed, but don't tell anyone about the antipsychotics. Viagra is so common place, it's given out like Halloween candy. Certain illness have a halo around them, while others don't.

1. If a person is mentally ill and you work with them very closely it would be helpful to disclose they have a mental illness, which they may not feel comfortable doing because it is a violation of privacy on a certain level. But if they don't, then people don't know how to explain unusual behavior, they'll just think you're ornery and difficult for no good reason. For example, my father is deaf in his left ear and always tells people speaking on his left side he can't hear and he's not ignoring them.

2. People have to be educated on how to work around the mental illness.

3. The mentally ill person has to take responsibility as best as they can for their own behavior.

There's probably more but I can't think of them right now.
 

wildcat

New member
Joined
Jun 8, 2007
Messages
3,622
MBTI Type
INTP
I don't think that's what he said.

When you get into dealing with people with mental illness, your ability to "get along" is quite likely to be hampered. Think about it this way, we'll accommodate a person with a physical handicap because we can see it. If someone's blind or in a wheelchair I don't think most people mind flexing around the person. Most mental illness is shrouded in mystery and there's still strong stigma attached. I think that a mature person educated on how to work with a person with mental disabilities would be flexible just as most people are with a physical handicap. A friend of mine works with a deaf woman and was asked to speak directly in front of her so she can read her lips.

To me, this brings up the question is how accommodating am I, a non-relative coworker who only has professional contact, supposed to be? If this were a family member or friend, my investment would be different. And I hate to sound so "unsympathetic," but ultimately you're at work to work, not figure out what mood this person is in today and should you go into their office to ask a question and how are they going to respond. It's not a coworker's job to play therapist. A person's emotional contagion infects a whole work environment, but you're supposed to tolerate it because they're mentally ill? What about the effects of that environment on everyone else? Is that healthy and productive for them? Should I tolerate emotional outbursts in the work environment just because the person is mentally ill?

If I were in danger of physical violence I would be very quickly advised to take action against the person. If I had an alcoholic coworker who came back from lunch drunk everyday (lol, that happened in another department), there would definitely be an outcry. But since it's mental illness when a person is emotionally unstable you must tolerate it with sympathy, or in other words, smile while someone stabs a fork in your hand. That's what I understood Santtu to be saying, why should it be tolerated? Why are some illnesses more socially acceptable than others. Nobody's ashamed of telling how many different antidepressants they've been prescribed, but don't tell anyone about the antipsychotics. Viagra is so common place, it's given out like Halloween candy. Certain illness have a halo around them, while others don't.

1. If a person is mentally ill and you work with them very closely it would be helpful to disclose they have a mental illness, which they may not feel comfortable doing because it is a violation of privacy on a certain level. But if they don't, then people don't know how to explain unusual behavior, they'll just think you're ornery and difficult for no good reason. For example, my father is deaf in his left ear and always tells people speaking on his left side he can't hear and he's not ignoring them.

2. People have to be educated on how to work around the mental illness.

3. The mentally ill person has to take responsibility as best as they can for their own behavior.

There's probably more but I can't think of them right now.
I tell you a secret.
There is no such thing as a mental illness.

I read a book about neuropathology in the middle 50s.
It was written by an eminent doctor.
From Vienna.
I was only nine years old, but I already knew what.
It was apparent the writer was a lot more confused than his subjects.

Apology is not a science.
What is at the base of an apology?
Discrimination.
In other words: Apology is white washing.

A prophet is a white washer.
He has followers, no doubt.

Mein Kampf washed Germany white.
It turned out red.

Does one divide?
No.
It is divided.
Does it then divide?
 

Salomé

meh
Joined
Sep 25, 2008
Messages
10,527
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
The trouble with this post is that this conclusion doesn't apply to all EXXJ's.
That is not the trouble with my post. That is the trouble with your reading of my post. I do not include superfluous words: "I have found" modifies my sentence and circumscribes the realm of applicability. It also makes it irrefutable. :)
Generalizations, they never work.
I think you are generalizing.

They are the fundamental building blocks of knowledge.
 

Salomé

meh
Joined
Sep 25, 2008
Messages
10,527
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I tell you a secret.
There is no such thing as a mental illness.

I read a book about neuropathology in the middle 50s.
It was written by an eminent doctor.
From Vienna.
I was only nine years old, but I already knew what.
It was apparent the writer was a lot more confused than his subjects.

Apology is not a science.
What is at the base of an apology?
Discrimination.
In other words: Apology is white washing.

A prophet is a white washer.
He has followers, no doubt.

Mein Kampf washed Germany white.
It turned out red.

Does one divide?
No.
It is divided.
Does it then divide?
:)
If only RD Laing had the recognition and influence that Freud has.

It's funny. We use diagnostic terms to label those who are different, as if to foster understanding, tolerance and compassion. But when did focusing on differences ever achieve that?
 

Synapse

New member
Joined
Dec 29, 2007
Messages
3,359
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
4
I understand this style of thinking, an adherence to valuations and such.

This is to place value judgments on situations, people and events that are in a ranking order of logical sequence and categorical for efficiency and hierarchical purposes. This is the kind of thinking that causes segregation and discrimination when it is highly judgmental and personalised.

While some of this is meant to be good intentioned, when perspective is absent across a universal line that lacks acceptance of all walks of life then a rigidity occurs that creates a checklist of black and white thinking. That competitive drive that sees value in performance appraisals, the same value in concrete things like a persons worth seen as a weight in gold rather than a person, assets and accomplishments measurable comparable and valued, that piece of paper, to be interrogated by these priority maps that place a boundary on their desires and what their value judgments think is right and wrong. The deviation from the road of thinking depends on maturity and reasoned acceptance that people are different whose thoughts and ideas are unlikely to jeopardize your would view but in every sense of the word disagree with your ranking prioritization.

This kind of linear thinking can create barriers between what is deemed worthy and what isn't and personal growth is subjective to willingness of the ego minds ability to comprehend other than their directives which would be placed as a low priority. If this was a road then there would be only a limited amount of colours taken into account rather than the infinite possibilities. This confuses the structure, the very foundation the valuation is functioning. And it is easier to rank according to the personalized attitude that seems innocent enough yet tends to divide a lot more opinion than solidarity to harmonise. Since it is based from a competitive need to rank in accordance to the values that are picked up according to the logical reasoning to function, deviation feels scary, like a short circuit and dismissible unless critically proven with proofs.
 

proteanmix

Plumage and Moult
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
5,514
Enneagram
1w2


I would like to say I understand where you all are coming from with this. I understand that humans have a range of behavior, and we're all beautiful and children of the universe.

But I'm thinking this out in practical terms.

If you have a person, who consistently acts like a petulant child even though petulance falls completely within the spectrum of human behavior, I personally, and maybe I'm completely unreasonable in my expectations(!!!), I expect a person to act like a mature and reasonable adult.

I'm not advocating shunning the mentally ill or that they're lesser beings. But if you have a person with a personality disorder and knowing a person with this disorder often plays manipulative games with themselves and with those around them you all saying just smile kindly at them. I even gave examples of when at other times and under similar circumstances the advice would be to get out of the situation. BUT, when someone's mentally ill it's suddenly stand and deliver!

That's controlling. People always talk about others being controlling, but how do you imagine that manifests itself in real life? In my office, when a whole department moves according to the whims of one person, that person is controlling the atmosphere. It's like people have totally skipped over the negative effects of such a person and like those who say they prefer not deal with such a person are lining them up outside of a crematorium.
 
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