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pack mentalities in people

briochick

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I'm just sort of mulling over these thoughts so they may only be half formed.
Has anyone else noticed a rather pervasive pack mentality (dominants, submissive, levels of dominance, fights for dominance) among people? Especially extroverted types? I feel like in the last year I really have.
Like, I would say that my brother is an alpha male, or close.
My father...wants to be. I think he's the dangerous kind, a partially dominant male who wishes to be alpha. He and my bro used to butt heads all the time. But now my father bends to my brother, not vise versa.
My sister is dominant until you stand up to her and assert dominance, then she fawns. I find it kind of offensive but it serves my point.
This last year at work there was a power play among the new teachers that I wasn't even aware of until I'd been shoved to the bottom of the dominance train. And then they expected me to be submissive even though *I'd* never conceded dominance. Most people seem to cede to this subtle tendency. Especially women. Especially E women. It irritates the crap out of me. Now, some women I've met have no problem being told what to do and being bossed about.
I do. I have no desire to dominate or to be dominated. I feel a bit outside the order of things. Unfortunately I think that leads a lot of people to think I'm a ubersubmissive, like an ISFJ, because I don't fight at all for dominance. Then they can't figure out why I dig my claws in when I start being bossed about.
But, lately, I feel I've been learning to play by the rules of the pack, so to speak. You know, identify the pack leaders, whether male or female, alli myself with some faction, assert support of the dominant, submit, or involve myself in subterfuge. It's depressing, quite frankly, but that's beside the point.
We're people, individuals. We have evolved brains. So, why is it that we respond this way? And, why do I find that I have to respond this way if I don't want to be a lone wolf? Isn't it odd?
 

INTJ123

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this behavior disgusts me as well, I see it all the time and it seems paradoxical to the ideal that all are equal wouldn't you say? So do you feel that they have placed you as the omega in their system?

but often times I find myself in a leadership position not because I want it, or made myself so, but because the group looks to me as it, and there is an apparent need for it, a democratic vote of who to look for leadership in the particular situation.
 

Jaguar

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But, lately, I feel I've been learning to play by the rules of the pack, so to speak. You know, identify the pack leaders, whether male or female, alli myself with some faction, assert support of the dominant, submit, or involve myself in subterfuge.


The only way to relax in your own warm sunlight, is to never walk in the cold shadow of another.
You always have a choice.
 

briochick

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I agree, I do think it's paradoxical.

I would say that, yeah, women (initially) tend to mark me like an omega. The problem is that I'm not the lowest of the low, submissive. I mean, normally if someone tells me what to do and it doesn't go against my morals and won't really put me out than I'm happy to do it. I just don't generally think in terms of a social ladder, or pack.

I think an advantage is that men don't do that with me. Or, if they do see me as an omega they respond quite differently. They either ignore me or, I'm finding, are more gentle with me than women are (even my father and brother, who are not by nature nice guys). I'm not sure how that plays into pack mentality, though I think that perhaps a good bit of my dead love-life could have to do with not having a place within the general pack mentality of groups (church, clubs, school, work, pick one).

Now, the research I've done says that the omegas are pretty much shat on by the rest of the pack. This isn't usually the case with me. Instead I'm ignored, left to fend for myself. I'm not bullied, usually, or picked on. Except by betas...who may see me as a challenger (which I spent months mulling over. Me? a threat to be put down? seriously?!).
An example is that at my last job I inadvertently challenged the alpha female (queen bee). A submissive (my good friend) ....ooooooh o_O I just realized there *was* an omega at my last job. Poor lady. Ok, back to the example, a submissive told me what I'd done. The next day the beta (I used to call her "the enforcer") challenged me. I stood up to the challenge. The alpha gained some respect for me. The beta then hated me.

It was frustrating to have to work within such confines though, where each woman had a rank, down to poor K, who no one liked, or respected, or listened to. And then there was me, and I never could figure out where I fit in their little pack. Most ignored me, a submissive befriended me, a dominant informed me, sometimes the alpha listened to me, and the beta hated me.

Do you think it's instinct? Something we can't escape? Maybe that even you or I conform to despite our own disgust of it?
All this is brought up because I'm now in a "group" with three dominant women and one submissive (who's basically protected by her mate, who is the alpha), which leaves me, who isn't dominant at all, but doesn't take too keenly to being challenged/ignored. The men in the group seem to like me well enough though. Perhaps I see a tendency in them to protect ones who aren't dominant.

Is that normal?
I wonder if any one type is more or less likely to participate in "packs" or to be alphas or omegas. I can see INFJs as not in packs at all. They're like SUPERsubmissive, but not.
 

INTJ123

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I agree, I do think it's paradoxical.

I would say that, yeah, women (initially) tend to mark me like an omega. The problem is that I'm not the lowest of the low, submissive. I mean, normally if someone tells me what to do and it doesn't go against my morals and won't really put me out than I'm happy to do it. I just don't generally think in terms of a social ladder, or pack.

I think an advantage is that men don't do that with me. Or, if they do see me as an omega they respond quite differently. They either ignore me or, I'm finding, are more gentle with me than women are (even my father and brother, who are not by nature nice guys). I'm not sure how that plays into pack mentality, though I think that perhaps a good bit of my dead love-life could have to do with not having a place within the general pack mentality of groups (church, clubs, school, work, pick one).

Now, the research I've done says that the omegas are pretty much shat on by the rest of the pack. This isn't usually the case with me. Instead I'm ignored, left to fend for myself. I'm not bullied, usually, or picked on. Except by betas...who may see me as a challenger (which I spent months mulling over. Me? a threat to be put down? seriously?!).
An example is that at my last job I inadvertently challenged the alpha female (queen bee). A submissive (my good friend) ....ooooooh o_O I just realized there *was* an omega at my last job. Poor lady. Ok, back to the example, a submissive told me what I'd done. The next day the beta (I used to call her "the enforcer") challenged me. I stood up to the challenge. The alpha gained some respect for me. The beta then hated me.

It was frustrating to have to work within such confines though, where each woman had a rank, down to poor K, who no one liked, or respected, or listened to. And then there was me, and I never could figure out where I fit in their little pack. Most ignored me, a submissive befriended me, a dominant informed me, sometimes the alpha listened to me, and the beta hated me.

Do you think it's instinct? Something we can't escape? Maybe that even you or I conform to despite our own disgust of it?
All this is brought up because I'm now in a "group" with three dominant women and one submissive (who's basically protected by her mate, who is the alpha), which leaves me, who isn't dominant at all, but doesn't take too keenly to being challenged/ignored. The men in the group seem to like me well enough though. Perhaps I see a tendency in them to protect ones who aren't dominant.

Is that normal?
I wonder if any one type is more or less likely to participate in "packs" or to be alphas or omegas. I can see INFJs as not in packs at all. They're like SUPERsubmissive, but not.

In a wolf pack I think the omega is viewed as the playful one, this might be the reason for the gentle behavior towards you, they might see you as playful and non threatening, someone who they can let their guard down with.

I think extroverts are most likely to participate in pack behavior.
 

briochick

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In a wolf pack I think the omega is viewed as the playful one,

Really? Where did you learn that? I read "pressure valve" on one website, but most said babysitter and bottom rung of the pack. One even said that wolf packs tend to starve and kill their omegas.
 

INTJ123

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HowStuffWorks "What is a wolf pack mentality?"


"On the bottom rung of the ladder, you have the omega wolf. As the name implies, the omega wolf is the weakest and the least cared for in the pack. Bullied by other members, the omega wolf will receive the brunt of the aggression in the wolf world, particularly during inter-pack fighting [source: Busch]. Sometimes, this antagonism climaxes to the point that the omega wolf will leave the pack and go it alone. Aside from being the pack's punching bag, the omega wolf also instigates play among the wolves to ease tensions."

I've seen documentaries on wolves and stuff too explaining this.

I think it depends on what kind of pack it is, if it's an especially aggressive/vicious pack then yes they will torment the omega to the point of making it a lone wolf or starvation or whatever.
 

briochick

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Great. So how do you think that could be applied to humans?
 

INTJ123

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Great. So how do you think that could be applied to humans?

I don't think it's always the case with humans, but it often is. Depends on the type of pack I guess. The usual omega is the joker, the clown, the least serious. The alpha is often the most serious, these titles of dominance are not from physical confrontation(mostly) it's usually a mental thing, psychological warfare. If humans can learn to balance these qualities themselves then a more balanced less hierarchical/more cooperative pack could be formed. I think mbti could be a great tool to use to achieve this balance, rather than to keep accentuating your strengths, one should use it to strengthen their weaknesses after identifying them.

The pack as a whole though is balanced through these individuals acting as one unit. So who am I to say there needs to be change at all, it's all a question of whether people like being told what to do and be put in their place, if they like acting and behaving as animals. Maybe this is just the natural way things are, but I think history shows it often undermines important people because of the social roles placed on them by others, and if that changed society might prosper.
 
G

Ginkgo

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I'm just sort of mulling over these thoughts so they may only be half formed.
Has anyone else noticed a rather pervasive pack mentality (dominants, submissive, levels of dominance, fights for dominance) among people? Especially extroverted types? I feel like in the last year I really have.
Like, I would say that my brother is an alpha male, or close.
My father...wants to be. I think he's the dangerous kind, a partially dominant male who wishes to be alpha. He and my bro used to butt heads all the time. But now my father bends to my brother, not vise versa.
My sister is dominant until you stand up to her and assert dominance, then she fawns. I find it kind of offensive but it serves my point.
This last year at work there was a power play among the new teachers that I wasn't even aware of until I'd been shoved to the bottom of the dominance train. And then they expected me to be submissive even though *I'd* never conceded dominance. Most people seem to cede to this subtle tendency. Especially women. Especially E women. It irritates the crap out of me. Now, some women I've met have no problem being told what to do and being bossed about.
I do. I have no desire to dominate or to be dominated. I feel a bit outside the order of things. Unfortunately I think that leads a lot of people to think I'm a ubersubmissive, like an ISFJ, because I don't fight at all for dominance. Then they can't figure out why I dig my claws in when I start being bossed about.
But, lately, I feel I've been learning to play by the rules of the pack, so to speak. You know, identify the pack leaders, whether male or female, alli myself with some faction, assert support of the dominant, submit, or involve myself in subterfuge. It's depressing, quite frankly, but that's beside the point.
We're people, individuals. We have evolved brains. So, why is it that we respond this way? And, why do I find that I have to respond this way if I don't want to be a lone wolf? Isn't it odd?

I can't tell you whether your behavior is "odd" or not, but I can say that I exhibit the same tendencies.

I don't look at a group of people and categorize the individuals based on a hierarchy of any kind. On the contrary, I analyze individuals based on their character, behavior, and morality. I also enjoy challenging authority, whether it be for the sake of my values or not. I feel that there should be a system of checks and balances within any social group, and I delight in keeping the authority figure on his/her toes.

Unfortunately, my habits also include being passive and "non-assertive". I classic example of this would be as follows:

I am standing in line, waiting for my food in High School. Suddenly, some sort of delinquent cuts in front of me without asking. He sublimely slips in. In a few moments, he beckons some of his friends over so they can cut in line too. At this point, you can imagine that I'm pretty pissed off, but because I don't want to cause a scene or risk getting into a physical fight, I stay silent.

To cope with this, I have created a facial expression that makes me look like I am either an asshole or I'm just having a bad day. By using this masquerade, I find that no one cuts in front of me.

It's interesting that you would mention the wolf pecking order. In fact, I actually view humans as wild animals sometimes. They often behave without compassion, caring, or even regard for De Facto social rules. :violin:

They have selfish and prideful motivations, which is one of the reasons why I hold a seed of disrespect for many authority figures.

EDIT: For the record, I'm not always this cynical. :D
 

Athenian200

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Honestly, it could be worse.

At least there are ways you could behave in order to move up the ladder if you wanted to. What's really unfair is when a person is trapped at a particular rung, can't do anything about their station, and people who don't deserve their positions get to stay at the top.

Personally, I prefer to stay at the lower rungs, and then use that position along with my awareness that this is how people operate, in ways people don't anticipate to get what little I need. I don't really need much, and I don't want to deal with the responsibility of the higher levels (the trade-off is generally more involvement/responsibility/scrutiny for more respect). Mostly because I use it more consciously than most people do. Knowledge is painful, but it can give you an advantage if you don't let yourself get too disgusted by it.

I noticed this tendency in people at a much younger age than you probably did, though... which is probably why I never *completely* trust them. I probably wasn't ready for it when I learned it (Ni is unfortunately very, very sensitive to this kind of stuff... practically built to detect it), and it really impaired my capacity for trust in basic goodness. Let's just say I was listening to this song at age 8 or so (note that the use of "sweet" dreams is meant to be ironic):

YouTube - Eurythmics - Sweet Dreams (Are Made Of This)
Sweet dreams are made of this
Who am I to disagree?
I travel the world
And the seven seas
Everybody's looking for something.

Some of them want to use you
Some of them want to get used by you
Some of them want to abuse you
Some of them want to be abused.

Sweet dreams are made of this
Who am I to disagree?
I travel the world
And the seven seas
Everybody's looking for something.

Hold your head up - Keep your head up - Movin' on
Hold your head up - Movin' on - Keep your head up - Movin' on
Hold your head up - Movin' on - Keep your head up - Movin' on
Hold your head up - Movin' on - Keep your head up.

Some of them want to use you
Some of them want to get used by you
Some of them want to abuse you
Some of them want to be abused.

Hold your head up - Keep your head up - Movin' on
Hold your head up - Movin' on - Keep your head up - Movin' on
Hold your head up - Movin' on - Keep your head up - Movin' on
Hold your head up - Movin' on - Keep your head up.

Sweet dreams are made of this... (4x and fade)
 

Drezoryx

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nice topic ure right this does happen n we love to challenge until the leader forms a special equation with us (of equals almost) or we dont care abt any authority n go all out blazing with the bazookas !! bang bang bang!!
 

FDG

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No, I never notice this type of stuff. I think it's just in the heads of people, not something that exists in reality. It's only an artificial structure superimposed over social interactions that would otherwise be more natural. I live my life without caring about power-dynamics and so far I haven't met particularly big obstacles, so I suppose my approach is not excessively wrong.
 

briochick

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No, I never notice this type of stuff. I think it's just in the heads of people, not something that exists in reality. It's only an artificial structure superimposed over social interactions that would otherwise be more natural. I live my life without caring about power-dynamics and so far I haven't met particularly big obstacles, so I suppose my approach is not excessively wrong.

You may have never noticed this stuff but I have to dissagree with your assumption. It is only in the head in the sense that all interpersonal dynamics begin in our minds. Everything from having the head of a lodge, to royalty, to hazing at fraternities speaks of a tendency within our race to form a "pecking order," some at the top, some not. Bullying is another example of this, a power play exerting dominance. Obviously it's more compelex than with wolves, because we are both animals and spirits, but it is there. The very notition of climbing a social latter denotes that there is an order to people's power, and how their viewed within their community. Considering how far back it goes (all of recorded history, I'd say) I don't think it's an artificial structure, but a natural one.
Perhaps you are naturally dominant, an alpha male even, and so power dynamics aren't such a big deal. There are some people who take precedence when they walk into a room and most naturally cede to them. You may be one of those people. Or, maybe you are oblivious to some of the dynamics around you. I don't know. I would say that if you were not a naturally aggressive individual (not quite dominant) than you would definately experience obsticals. I think there are probably definate advantages to your personality.
 

01011010

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Survival instincts. Of course you have to play that game if you want to be part of any group, because every group has some sort of hierarchy. There's no escaping it.
 

GHC

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I have noticed the –pack mentality- that we as humans seem to have deep wired in our subconscious. I have put it way more thought and emphasis now that I used to do.

Believe it or not my classroom is overpopulated with dominant extroverted females, when they are not in their loving-We are the best friends Forever-Moments they are trying to kill and prove their dominance with each other over the silliest things you can imagine.
I would say there are definite more competition and rivalries between the women’s of my class than the males.

Most of the males in my class get along well with each other and most of them since to be quite happy with their -places-. The Alpha male of my group is fortunately a very good hearted person though he is very assertive, confident and people are naturally drawn to him.
 

The_Liquid_Laser

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Some groups are more hierarchical, while others are more egalitarian. It really depends on the setting and the attitudes of the people in the group. In a work setting there is usually an explicitly defined hierarchy. In any other setting I don't tolerate that crap, at least if it's obvious. Sometimes it's too subtle for me to detect.
 

tetsuwanatom

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But, lately, I feel I've been learning to play by the rules of the pack, so to speak. You know, identify the pack leaders, whether male or female, alli myself with some faction, assert support of the dominant, submit, or involve myself in subterfuge. It's depressing, quite frankly, but that's beside the point.
We're people, individuals. We have evolved brains. So, why is it that we respond this way? And, why do I find that I have to respond this way if I don't want to be a lone wolf? Isn't it odd?


As a person who has experience of being mobbed in her workplace and who have had these thoughts during some of her darker days, I can offer you some advice.

First, decide what you want. Identify why you are unhappy. Accept your part of the responsibility for your unhappiness. It is not just the social structure and your environment that is putting you down, you too have had played a role in shaping your life down this path. In your past, you have made choices that have led you to be in this state.

Once you have resolved your inner conflict (this might take a while!), you should be able to identify personal patterns of thoughts and behaviour that are harmful to you, that mar your sense of self and purpose. Change these behaviours.

Engage with your environment. Not in terms of your "playing-the-game" persona, but in a more honest way, more in line with yourself--the self you have understood more after facing and resolving your inner conflicts.

Sometimes your environment might not be suitable for you. In that case, you should identify the kind of environment that would suit you better. But sometimes it is also necessary to change your environment, and not just you.

In my workplace, there were a lot of chronicled abuses---abuses of authority, money, ad hoc rules put in place with flimsy justifications. It was an implicit kind of conflict, the kind that was difficult to air and discuss. And in fact, when they were aired and discussed, the people in positions of authority acknowledged them, reported them in their files, then promptly ignored them.

Many times I felt that maybe the problem was just me; and many times the alpha people acted like the problem WAS just me and a few other people who were really at the bottom of the pile. They said the problem was "localised".

Anyway, to cut a long story short, we became whistleblowers. It took a long time, but we finally found someone who was high up enough and who WANTED to do something and actually did it.

Of course, after that we still got into trouble :)
But this time it wasn't because we were "blowing hot air" and talking about "localised problems", but because we "circumvented the hierarchy and went straight to talk to the person at the top without going through the proper channels". But this time the people in the proper channels stopped saying that there were no problems.

We did not follow the pack mentality so we got into trouble. But we didn't follow it because it was making us feel shite and horrible and depressed and unhealthy.
Even the people who were following the pack mentality and playing along were feeling shite and horrible and depressed and unhealthy.
And the people at the top of the pack?
I don't think they were happy people either, to be honest. They were fighting amongst themselves all the time, being paranoid, trying to show off to each other that they are better than the other.

It is not really the pack mentality that you should be worried about, but more the direction and growth of your pack.
Is your pack the social structure that will bring the best out of you?
Are you having fun with your pack? Is your pack giving you the stability you need? Do you feel like you are a significant member of your pack? Do you feel you are growing in this environment? Do you feel in this pack that you can contribute something?


I gave you an extreme case of a pack that is not aligned with my values (and one that seems to consume people!), but I think that when you are not in your "right place", you will feel this conflict between yourself and your environment.
This is an opportunity for growth :)
 

GHC

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I just want to point out something about the pack mentality and individual itself:

Unlike most animals WE have far more opportunities and chances to self improvement and growth so don't take the Heriarichal system and people who follow it dictate your present and future life. Everyone is capable of success it is just a thing to propose it oneself.

I suppose that's my idealistic side taking the lead now. XD
 

Quinlan

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I'm glad this sort of stuff goes over my head, applying dominant and submissive to every person/action and so readily trying to analogise our behaviour to that of animals seems a bit distasteful to me.
 
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