Men, Women, and Crying

[EJCC]

And that's where the difference lies. I cry when I am legitimately sad about something, so it's news to me that other people don't. I assume it's this way for most of the men who feel manipulated. I mean, I laugh when happy not angry. I eat when hungry, not bored... same principle.

You are very lucky. The times I cry, like I said in my last post, are a result of many types of emotions, all built up. I am NOT being manipulative when I cry, because I didn't want to be crying in the first place. I'm not using it - it's using me. It's... automatic. And it can be humiliating.

The example you give is extreme. What about the example of women who cry to get out of speeding tickets? I've met a number of those. They are happy to admit it. And Sanveane has also given examples. Runvardh has referred (albeit vaguely) to having had experience with manipulative-criers. As has Alcea Rosea. And EJCC. And Berberella.

The manipulative criers I've met were both doing so just to get some attention. Both of them succeeded in getting a hug from me, and sympathetic words. It wasn't for any material gain. I have NEVER met a woman who did anything like, say, crying to get out of speeding tickets. Also, I should add that those two women who manipulated me... had troubled pasts, to say the very least. One of them especially - I'm sure it was horrible, but she's a compulsive liar, so I have no idea how much of what she's told me was true (although her friends have told me that her parents essentially did nothing - it was like everyone in her family lived alone, and did their own thing, and never spoke to one another. All through her childhood.) So because of this, I don't think you should use me as evidence.

You know, there's another thread that cites an article (written by a man) where one of the main points is that, supposedly, women need entertainment, and they'll do whatever they have to do (emotional manipulation, cheating on their spouse) to get it. I find that male paranoia similar to the things that JJJ has been saying - i.e. a big claim full of suspicion with hardly any evidence to support it. Sure, you know a few women who brag about fake crying to get (out of doing) things. Before saying that, therefore, a large percentage of women do this, there are other things to take into consideration. Do you think where you live has anything to do with it? All the women who have told you that they fake cried to get something - would you say that they're manipulative people in general? Do you think some of them may have been lying, to impress you?

To answer your question, fidelia - I don't know if type has much to do with which women will do this sort of thing (although I'll bet that unhealthy ESFPs have an advantage). There are so many other factors, you know? HOWEVER, I'll bet that NTs are the most likely to be paranoid about crying as manipulation, because they don't relate to crying in many circumstances.

 

[Eileen]

I don't like to cry in front of people and don't, usually. I couldn't cry at my brother's wake or funeral; I couldn't cry until everyone except my live-in boyfriend was gone from my house. If I'm in a public situation and somebody shouts or screams at me, I am likely to cry, but I find somewhere to hide first so that I can do it. But if I feel comfortable with a friend or lover, I will cry in front of that person. It's a big trust thing for me.


A problem that I am having now and several women who I identify very strongly with have had as well is this: We cry in front of our lovers/partners, and we tend to cry when things get emotional, period. It is just an outward and visible sign of our investment, though we may not be horribly injured by something. If we are expected to have an emotional conversation, it must also be expected that we will cry some as that is just our natural physical response to the stress or whatever.

And then the conversation stops, or starts to be about the crying. The men, even as well as they know us, are crippled by the tears. They may become afraid to be open with us because they're afraid we'll cry. And then things end up getting much worse, ensuing in more tears.

What are some solutions to this awful communication loop?

 

[violaine]

...
However, tears are not always manipulative and it is important to consider the other possibilities of why people cry instead of immediately jumping to that conclusion.

Yes, of course. I just don't think it's a T/F thing. I'm not automatically suspicious but I am also not fooled by tears nor feel the need to act in a sympathetic way when someone cries and it's disingenuous.

 

[Ivy]

I think all of the INFJs in this thread so far have expressed that they truly dislike crying in front of others. I know I do. I also view manipulators with disdain.

However, tears are not always manipulative and it is important to consider the other possibilities of why people cry instead of immediately jumping to that conclusion.

I HATE crying in front of people who don't know me well enough to know it's just something I do. In fact, I'm not a huge fan of crying in front of people who DO know me well enough to know that. I wish that I could choose to cry or not depending on the circumstances but it's just not an ability I have. I'm never consciously manipulating, and I'm usually trying to get it to stop. That's never very successful, so the only thing left is to duck out of the interaction altogether. Then they REALLY think something is way bad wrong.

 

[Fidelia]

The reason I brought up type was that in our discussion of STJs in the past, I was surprised to see how many viewed what they termed as crying (but which could include behaviours such as complaining etc) as a manipulative bid to gain sympathy that they did not deserve, or to beat a dead horse instead of getting around to solving the problem. I know that INFPs I have talked to have also expressed this frustration as well. Certainly many NTs seem to view crying with suspicion because they appear to be less prone to it. And yet, there are other types for whom tears seem to be a natural response to emotion and they would also assume the same of others.

 

[Fidelia]

Eileen, you have an excellent point. I am going to paste a copy of something I wrote in a conversation to JJJ about this very subject.

I have noticed though that a man's feelings of "I've crossed the line" usually are translated into stressed and often angry behaviour which makes the other person feel like crap if the tears were involuntary and he already feels like crap and so now you both do and there doesn't seem to be a way out of it. EDIT: So, many things are just left unresolved because the reactions of both parties are uncomfortable to deal with.

If it's number two, the reasons why he thinks she's overreacting are rarely explored first. He may be lacking important information for judging the greatness of the overreaction. And sometimes the emotion needs to be cleared away in order to get down to effectively shifting attention to finding a solution. (This is something men sometimes forget and actually delay this shift by starting an exchange that creates more emotion). Often it just escalates into a fight about why she shouldn't feel the way she does (which creates more emotion and crying), or is seen as a judgement on her character (either she's illogical or her feelings are not worthy of being taken seriously).

I do think it's manipulative however for women to use the hormone card as an excuse for poor behaviour. I do see that happen and many women feel justified in doing so. I find for myself that when I am physically or emotionally low on reserves I am more likely to be prone to tears under stress, so it is something worth factoring in, although the feelings would still be there about the issue, just not as extreme.

How do you think men and women can overcome this divide in perspectives?

 

[Geoff]

I don't like to cry in front of people and don't, usually. I couldn't cry at my brother's wake or funeral; I couldn't cry until everyone except my live-in boyfriend was gone from my house. If I'm in a public situation and somebody shouts or screams at me, I am likely to cry, but I find somewhere to hide first so that I can do it. But if I feel comfortable with a friend or lover, I will cry in front of that person. It's a big trust thing for me.


A problem that I am having now and several women who I identify very strongly with have had as well is this: We cry in front of our lovers/partners, and we tend to cry when things get emotional, period. It is just an outward and visible sign of our investment, though we may not be horribly injured by something. If we are expected to have an emotional conversation, it must also be expected that we will cry some as that is just our natural physical response to the stress or whatever.

And then the conversation stops, or starts to be about the crying. The men, even as well as they know us, are crippled by the tears. They may become afraid to be open with us because they're afraid we'll cry. And then things end up getting much worse, ensuing in more tears.

What are some solutions to this awful communication loop?

Ah! Interesting... *ponders*. As an old friend, you've been in tears talking to me about something I was going through, and I remember (at first) thinking -while being quite touched - that it was due to emotional fragility, and then realising after that I needed to reevaluate downwards what tears mean to you vs tears for me (I have shed tears, i think, once in the last three years so for me it is a "big deal"). If my perspective is helpful, I think it helps to have you explain what you have done in this thread, and that ensure that someone like your bf recognises the tears for what they mean for you. It's even helped me a year or so after the event, to read it, so I am sure when it is contemporary it will do so



Tricky one though.

 

[Jae Rae]

What are some solutions to this awful communication loop?

Write a letter. This does two things: 1) it takes crying out of the realm of possibility; 2) it gets your thoughts and feelings out and makes things clearer to you.

 

[JivinJeffJones]

You are quite right JJJ to feel resentment towards women who cry about speeding tickets etc and then boast about it later.

I don't feel any particular resentment towards fake-criers because I've never been on the receiving end of it. I don't personally have any strong feelings on the subject one way or the other.

You know, there's another thread that cites an article (written by a man) where one of the main points is that, supposedly, women need entertainment, and they'll do whatever they have to do (emotional manipulation, cheating on their spouse) to get it. I find that male paranoia similar to the things that JJJ has been saying - i.e. a big claim full of suspicion with hardly any evidence to support it.

What have I been saying? That some women use tears to manipulate? How is that paranoid? How does that qualify as a "big claim full of suspicion with hardly any evidence to support it"? I think you need to go back and reread what I've actually said. There's sufficient anecdotal evidence on this thread alone to justify what I've actually said.

Sure, you know a few women who brag about fake crying to get (out of doing) things. Before saying that, therefore, a large percentage of women do this, there are other things to take into consideration. Do you think where you live has anything to do with it? All the women who have told you that they fake cried to get something - would you say that they're manipulative people in general? Do you think some of them may have been lying, to impress you?

Again, tell me where I said a large percentage of women do this?

And in answer to your questions: I don't know if where I live has anything to do with it, but I doubt it. The few women I've known well enough to have a sense of their character who have fake-cried to get out of speeding tickets have not been manipulative people in general. Most of the women who have related similar anecdotes haven't been familiar enough to me to have an accurate read of their characters. And no, I doubt they were lying to impress me.

 

[iwakar]

JJJ, I think it is more your repeated voical of your opinion on the topic than your literal text that is furthering the opinion that you generally think of crying as manipulation.

 

[JivinJeffJones]

JJJ, I think it is more your repeated voical of your opinion on the topic than your literal text that is furthering the opinion that you generally think of crying as manipulation.

I'm only repeatedly clarifying my position because people are repeatedly misinterpreting my position.

 

[iwakar]

I'm only repeatedly clarifying my position because people are repeatedly misinterpreting my position.

I understand that. Hopefully the others do too now.

 

[Usehername]

The few women I've known well enough to have a sense of their character who have fake-cried to get out of speeding tickets have not been manipulative people in general. Most of the women who have related similar anecdotes haven't been familiar enough to me to have an accurate read of their characters. And no, I doubt they were lying to impress me.

IMO, a woman who is willing to manipulate to get out of things like a speeding ticket has a yellow flag marked on her that makes me look out. Doing that just invites people to question their expression of feelings in other circumstances.

 

[JivinJeffJones]

IMO, a woman who is willing to manipulate to get out of things like a speeding ticket has a yellow flag marked on her that makes me look out. Doing that just invites people to question their expression of feelings in other circumstances.

Maybe it's the convict heritage of my nation speaking, but I never held that against them. Personally I don't think manipulating traffic cops should count as much of a yellow flag.

 

[iwakar]

Maybe it's the convict heritage of my nation speaking, but I never held that against them.

 

[Eileen]

Ah! Interesting... *ponders*. As an old friend, you've been in tears talking to me about something I was going through, and I remember (at first) thinking -while being quite touched - that it was due to emotional fragility, and then realising after that I needed to reevaluate downwards what tears mean to you vs tears for me (I have shed tears, i think, once in the last three years so for me it is a "big deal"). If my perspective is helpful, I think it helps to have you explain what you have done in this thread, and that ensure that someone like your bf recognises the tears for what they mean for you. It's even helped me a year or so after the event, to read it, so I am sure when it is contemporary it will do so

Really, I think he intellectually understands what is happening when I cry, but a visceral part of him responds as if he has injured me profoundly.

Write a letter. This does two things: 1) it takes crying out of the realm of possibility; 2) it gets your thoughts and feelings out and makes things clearer to you.

Yeah. This is what my impulse is. I have ALWAYS written epic letters, and then a friend of mine said that I was the letter-writingest woman he'd ever met, and that I should try to have more face-to-face conversations. And I took that advice, and it has resulted in increased tears (but valuable real-time conversations and discussions of initial emotional responses).

 

[EJCC]

Again, tell me where I said a large percentage of women do this?

On numerous occasions in the thread, you've said things along the lines of "More women manipulate through crying than you THINK. You're underestimating!" So, by "a large percentage", I meant a large percentage COMPARATIVELY speaking - a larger percentage than what all the women on this thread think. (It could even be 10% of women. But nonetheless, 10% is MUCH higher than what I might have estimated.)

Maybe it's the convict heritage of my nation speaking, but I never held that against them. Personally I don't think manipulating traffic cops should count as much of a yellow flag.

Ah, HERE we go! Connotation miscommunication! See, when I meet people who are shameless manipulators, I automatically dislike them. Right away, I don't want to speak to them anymore. I want my friends to be HONEST. I don't want to be duped. I just can't trust people who do that. I... can't STAND it. That's why I reacted so strongly. You were just trying to make your point, no big deal, but I felt like it was a big deal because <ESTJmoment>IT'S LIKE MORALITY IS DYING!!!!!!!!!!!!!</ESTJmoment>

So yeah. I'm done now. Sorry about all that.

 

[OrangeAppled]

He's not lumping all women together; he's trying to explain why a male might have these suspicions until experience with any specific girl demonstrates otherwise.

That's what lumping women together is.....assuming that all future women you deal with are going to be the same as the ones in the past instead of dealing with them as unique individuals.

To me, the insistence that "some" women and "more than we think" use crying as a manipulation is a way of invalidating the emotions of a woman so as to shirk any responsibility in producing that effect. These men don't want to feel "bad" when women cry, so they find it easier to write it off as manipulation.

 

[Synarch]

I know quite a few women who resort to fake crying to avoid consequences or to get their own way. (I stopped counting at 6.) I've seen them do it so many times and then when they get their way the sun comes out again. Bleh.

It's usually directed at their partners/families/friends but one of these women had some trouble getting some permissions for her business and told her business partner not to worry as she would go to the local authority and cry to make things happen.

Those are also the women who wheedle and attempt to curry favor with falsely high-pitched voices. Act like children and get treated like children.

 

[lowtech redneck]

That's what lumping women together is.....assuming that all future women you deal with are going to be the same as the ones in the past instead of dealing with them as unique individuals.

Guarding against the possibility is not the same as assuming the "worst" (I don't really consider the exaggeration of genuine emotion as a reflexive defense mechanism to be indicative of some sort of unusual or heinous moral defect, so I must assume you are referring to more cold-blooded, systematic and habitual manipulation), and is certainly not the same as dealing with women as anything less than unique individuals.