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Don't Abuse the JUNG!

onemoretime

Dreaming the life
Joined
Jun 29, 2009
Messages
4,455
MBTI Type
3h50
All I see that quote as actually saying is "understand what typing is, and what it's not". It is a way to describe trends and potentially gain insights into individuals' psychology. It's not a way to classify humans.
 

Jaguar

Active member
Joined
May 5, 2007
Messages
20,647
All I see that quote as actually saying is "understand what typing is, and what it's not". It is a way to describe trends and potentially gain insights into individuals' psychology. It's not a way to classify humans.

Yet, damned if we are not in the midst of a forum,
which predominantly body-slams people using human classification.

When I was a kid immersed in the classification of rocks and minerals,
and studying geology, I don't think I conducted rants like:

"You fucking quartz crystals all suck!"
"Fossils really piss me off!"

It's pathetic that when we turn a classification system into one for humans,
it suddenly resembles nothing more than people in glass houses throwing stones.
 

Jeffster

veteran attention whore
Joined
Jun 7, 2008
Messages
6,743
MBTI Type
ESFP
Enneagram
7w6
Instinctual Variant
sx
People are so afraid of being seen as a zealot, that they feel they have to play down their enthusiasm for typology.

Then, as a result of so many people doing that, anyone who is openly enthusiastic about it seems like a zealot by comparison.

I totally agree. It almost seems like some people go though a cycle:

Enthused about typology - Wanting to share newfound knowledge - tired of the concept - "I'M TOO COOL FOR TYPOLOGY, YOU FOOLS NEED TO TOSS OFF THE SHACKLES OF YOUR MIND AND BE ENLIGHTENED LIKE ME, YEAAAARRRRH."
 

stellar renegade

PEST that STEPs on PETS
Joined
Jul 13, 2009
Messages
1,446
MBTI Type
ESTP
Fuck, I just use it to find out more about myself. I know there are infinite variations between people but the descriptions of each type seem to fit very well.

The further development of both type and temperament have had amazing results. I plan on developing it even further, if possible.
 

Mole

Permabanned
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
20,284
When I was a kid immersed in the classification of rocks and minerals, and studying geology, I don't think I conducted rants like: "You fucking quartz crystals all suck!"

The problem is that quartz is not conscious and we are.

And worse, we are conscious of each other. So our consciousness is recursive. And being recursive our consciousness is inherently unpredictable.

So psychological typing is an attempt to predict the unpredictable.

And this reflects the human condition - pathetically we try and try to predict the unpredictable.

We are thrown onto this Earth without our permission. And equally, we are taken from this beautiful Earth without our permission. And we try to find rhyme and reason in this. So we have created ten thousand religions and cults to tell us why and where and how. And they tell us ten thousand different whys, and ten thousand different wheres, and ten thousand different hows.

Yet in this vale of tears, tossed by the storm, we cling to the nearest piece of wreckage.

And we hope, we hope and we hope it will save us.

And along with hope we have faith, but our saving grace is charity.
 

stellar renegade

PEST that STEPs on PETS
Joined
Jul 13, 2009
Messages
1,446
MBTI Type
ESTP
That's pretty poetic. Have you considered being a writer? Or do you currently write for a living?

Because you totally could.
 

sculpting

New member
Joined
Jan 28, 2009
Messages
4,148
It isnt a perfect system. It isnt all encompassing. It's a start. Some of the pieces work really well and some could use tweaking.

The stereotypes do get old.

Say each type can live in four states-for an enfp:
early development: NeFi
middle devleopment: NeFiTe
Tert overdev:NeTeFi
Shadow: NiFeTi

so already you are at 16 times 4=64 boxes. However really people are moving between those states in a continuum, no matter what state they may be in most of the time.

Not to mention those who develop functions to supplement what work or home life they have that are outside of the "normal" order.

Or people who have functions that dont seem to fit cleanly in the above boxed order.

The neatest discoveries in any system are the parts where it is inconsistant and doesn't make any sense. That means it is wrong and you need to take another look and remold until the model fits the data. Data isnt wrong, the model just needs modification.
 

Jaguar

Active member
Joined
May 5, 2007
Messages
20,647
The neatest discoveries in any system are the parts where it is inconsistant and doesn't make any sense. That means it is wrong and you need to take another look and remold until the model fits the data. Data isnt wrong, the model just needs modification.

Exactly.

The problem is, with the current model the data is actually being ignored.

Case in point:

Look at the following results from 4 alleged INTPs.
You will notice a similar pattern in the results.

(Bear in mind, there are two versions of the cognitive processes test available, so even that can make results fairly inconsistent.)


ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo Ti
oooooooooooooooooooooooooo Ne
oooooooooooooooooooooooo Te
oooooooooooooooooooooo Ni
ooooooooooooo Se
ooooooooooooo Fi
oooooooooo Si
oo Fe


oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo Ne
oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo Ti
ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo Ni
ooooooooooooooooooo Te
ooooooooooooooooo Si
ooooooooooooo Fi
oooooooo Se
ooooooo Fe

ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo Ti
ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo Ne
ooooooooooooooooooooooooooo Ni
ooooooooooooooooooo Se
oooooooooooo Te
ooooooo Si
oooo Fe
oooo Fi

oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo Ti
ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo Ne
ooooooooooooooooooooooooooo Ni
ooooooooooooooooooooooooo Fi
ooooooooooooooooooooo Te
ooooooooooooooooooo Si
ooooooooooooo Se
oooooooooo Fe


What stands out most, is what I see not only in INTP results,
but anyone's results.
That's the ability to score high on both Ne and Ni.
If you notice, there are some who score well on Te and Ti.

What people keep ignoring is, MBTI profiles were created based upon an exact function order.
This is not rocket science people.

This is why MBTI failed miserably when some Jungian analysts tested MBTI's claims.

Monster, you and I have been down this road together.
We know the system is flawed.
The bottom line is, many function orders do not match.
And when that happens, the person is not that type.
It really is that simple.

That means using MBTI criteria, none of those 4 alleged INTPs are actually INTPs.
They are some other type, yet to be named.

So if someone has a beginning order like this:

Ne
Ti
Ni
Te

They are not INTP or even ENTP, no matter what that test result says.
MBTI does not define type by only the first two functions.
MBTI type is based on an exact order of functions.
(Which is why the system is flawed.)

"Close to INTP" doesn't make one INTP.
If people want to live by the MBTI sword,
they better be willing to die by it.

" Hey, I'm a little INTP-ish."

There is no such thing as a little bit INTP, or "a little bit pregnant."

I'm not looking for a perfect system,
I'm looking for a system that does what it claims.
MBTI fails miserably at what it claims.

This isn't a problem with typology,
it's a problem with MBTI.

People need to get their facts straight.
 

Athenian200

Protocol Droid
Joined
Jul 1, 2007
Messages
8,828
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
4w5
.

This isn't a problem with typology,
it's a problem with MBTI.

People need to get their facts straight.

Well, that model would never work. Almost no one uses the functions in the exact order they're listed in.

I always thought MBTI was more about the dichotomies, and functions were just added on to half-heartedly reconcile it with Jungian theory.

In Jungian terms, I'd say I'm definitely an Introverted Intuitive type, because that's my strongest function. I don't really feel all that comfortable with any of the others, though I use them.

It's too bad I can't just stop there and say I'm an Introverted Intuitive. Because deep down, I get the feeling that I probably don't really care about logic, justice, or ethics nearly as much as the ideas, visions, and daydreams I come up with... but I'll use either one to justify and explain them depending on my mood.
 

Jeffster

veteran attention whore
Joined
Jun 7, 2008
Messages
6,743
MBTI Type
ESFP
Enneagram
7w6
Instinctual Variant
sx
I always thought MBTI was more about the dichotomies, and functions were just added on to half-heartedly reconcile it with Jungian theory.

Yeah, that's my understanding too. The MBTI itself does not ask questions to determine function order, it asks questions to determine dichotomy preferences. When you assume a set function order based on those preferences, you're making a big leap without any real basis.
 

Wonkavision

Retired Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2009
Messages
1,154
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
7w8
I'm looking for a system that does what it claims.
MBTI fails miserably at what it claims.

I'm not going to attempt to change your mind about this, but I totally disagree.

I find MBTI to be a very good system, and I find it very helpful.
 

Athenian200

Protocol Droid
Joined
Jul 1, 2007
Messages
8,828
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
4w5
Yeah, that's my understanding too. The MBTI itself does not ask questions to determine function order, it asks questions to determine dichotomy preferences. When you assume a set function order based on those preferences, you're making a big leap without any real basis.

Yep, I agree.

Quite honestly, I'm willing to admit that when I use function theory, I'm really just using it as a post-hoc explanation for a set of vague ideas I'm testing out about a situation or a person (some of which are my own, some of which come from others). If function theory works at all, I think it's because most of us are projecting our own hunches and perception of that situation and several similar situations onto the system, and giving ourselves permission to trust and investigate vague ideas that normally wouldn't hold up to scrutiny, or even be expressible in normal language terms. Basically, it allows us to partially externalize and express what would normally be a completely internal awareness.

Function theory is the perfect thing to use for this kind of projection, because it's a logically balanced whole, following precise rules, describing almost nothing (yet still precise enough to give an impression), that can be sliced in several ways, allowing us plenty of room to take a couple of points that have some vague truth, and weave our own picture around them. This is especially helpful for NTs you manage to convince of it, who often can't be persuaded to trust their (accurate) hunches over logic. This gives them the set of "almost good enough" rationalizations they need to trust their instincts. I've honestly seen it transform their lives for the better by allowing them to bypass logic without being aware of it, more than they would normally let themselves.
 

Jaguar

Active member
Joined
May 5, 2007
Messages
20,647
Yeah, that's my understanding too. The MBTI itself does not ask questions to determine function order, it asks questions to determine dichotomy preferences. When you assume a set function order based on those preferences, you're making a big leap without any real basis.

That's exactly why MBTI's reliability has come under fire for decades.
What you wrote in bold print is in fact, what MBTI claims.
Two Jungian analysts-Singer and Loomis-set out to test MBTI's claim,
of having assumed function orders.

In one of their studies they found:

Summing across all 8 Dominant Type Modes, we discovered:
the MBTI successfully predicted individuals’ Auxiliary Type Modes in less than 23% of the cases.

Further, for remaining cases,
the MBTI prediction rate deteriorated to 18.6% for Tertiary
processes and 9.1% for Inferior processes.


Singer and Loomis have done many tests on MBTI,
all of which demonstrated--to varying degrees-- that MBTI is not reliable.

Jeff, you are correct MBTI doesn't ask questions to test your functions.
Your 4-letter type code directly correlates with an assumed function order,
which MBTI claims you have.
 

Mole

Permabanned
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
20,284
That's exactly why MBTI's reliability has come under fire for decades.
What you wrote in bold print is in fact, what MBTI claims.
Two Jungian analysts-Singer and Loomis-set out to test MBTI's claim,
of having assumed function orders.

In one of their studies they found:

Summing across all 8 Dominant Type Modes, we discovered:
the MBTI successfully predicted individuals’ Auxiliary Type Modes in less than 23% of the cases.

Further, for remaining cases,
the MBTI prediction rate deteriorated to 18.6% for Tertiary
processes and 9.1% for Inferior processes.


Singer and Loomis have done many tests on MBTI,
all of which demonstrated--to varying degrees-- that MBTI is not reliable.

Jeff, you are correct MBTI doesn't ask questions to test your functions.
Your 4-letter type code directly correlates with an assumed function order,
which MBTI claims you have.

I what is interesting is that the same kind of results have been obtained with Neuro Linguistic Programming (NLP).

I think there is a trend here.

And that is that is when New Age claims are reality tested, reality fails to match their claims.

But reality is no bar to faith. So many hundreds of millions have been following the New Age since the beginning of the 20th Century.

The New Age plainly meets a deep rooted need. It may be because Christianity had been in retreat in the West from the middle of the 19th Century.

Or it may be that mathematics and science offer no consolation to the masses.

And of course the marriage of the New Age and business has assured its success.

And interestingly this is very much like the earlier success of the marriage of Protestantism and business.

So perhaps the New Age is a secular or modern form of Protestantism.

But whatever, this site is proof of its popularity.
 

Ivy

Strongly Ambivalent
Joined
Apr 18, 2007
Messages
23,989
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
6
Many of us who were involved in the creation of this site share the skepticism about typology. I know that probably seems hypocritical, but I have always thought of this as a place for people with an INTEREST in typology, not only for people who buy it wholesale.
 

heart

heart on fire
Joined
May 19, 2007
Messages
8,456
I definately hate to hear of MBTI being used to pigeonhole people at jobs or school. I think it should remain a voluntary, personal tool.
 

Ivy

Strongly Ambivalent
Joined
Apr 18, 2007
Messages
23,989
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
6
I definately hate to hear of MBTI being used to pigeonhole people at jobs or school. I think it should remain a voluntary, personal tool.

I agree. I pretty much only use it as a vocabulary for certain kinds of traits, and for soft discussion of mushy concepts. I really think taking it very seriously only elevates false dichotomies to the level of science. Like "I'm 33% intuitive!" Really? 33%? Is there a blood test for that?
 

Jaguar

Active member
Joined
May 5, 2007
Messages
20,647
I definately hate to hear of MBTI being used to pigeonhole people at jobs or school. I think it should remain a voluntary, personal tool.


Over the years, I have heard/read hundreds of stories of people being discriminated against, because of it.
I'm referring to it being used in a corporate setting.
There were people who claimed they didn't get hired because of their test result.
Worse yet, were the people who told of the "type cliques" at their company.
Certain tasks were delegated to those with a certain "type."

Did it ever occur to those fools the type result wasn't valid?
The recklessness is astounding. :doh:
 

Siúil a Rúin

when the colors fade
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
14,037
MBTI Type
ISFP
Enneagram
496
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Many of us who were involved in the creation of this site share the skepticism about typology. I know that probably seems hypocritical, but I have always thought of this as a place for people with an INTEREST in typology, not only for people who buy it wholesale.
This resonates with me as well. I don't see it as hypocritical to continually question a system that a person finds interesting and useful. I think it's healthy. It's what I understand to be critical thinking.

My impression is that there is a little more to it than pure confirmation bias because it has constructed a few legitimate poles, but that stereotypes and preconceived prejudices play a strong role in making MBTI appear consistent and "true". It is just as interesting to learn about people through the way they interact with MBTI. I think I've learned more online in that way than through the categories and definitions within MBTI.
 
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