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Positive Disintegration

GZA

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Positive Disintegration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Anyone familiar with this theory?

Its a bit hard to understand (and its been a while since I've actually read all of it), but in a nutshell it is a theory that some people go through stages of great anxiety and depression in the process of self-actualisation. Its a very interesting theory, but that article is a bit difficult to understand at times (it is Wikipedia, so its not exactly written by Debrowski himself).
 

ygolo

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I am now. Thanks.

Its a bit hard to understand (and its been a while since I've actually read all of it), but in a nutshell it is a theory that some people go through stages of great anxiety and depression in the process of self-actualisation. Its a very interesting theory, but that article is a bit difficult to understand at times (it is Wikipedia, so its not exactly written by Debrowski himself).

I think there is some truth to this. I read some blurbs about "highly sensitive people" a little while ago. I think there may be some good things about being high on the neuroticsm dimension.
 

GZA

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Yep.

I've actually been thinking about it a bit lately.

Have you seen anything that gives a narrative example of what someone in each level might look like?

I have not, but that would be interesting. I think if you look enough you could probably find a discussion forum or blog of soem kind where people describe their own experiences with positive disintegration.
 

nolla

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This is an inspiring theory, but has unfortunately been hi-jacked by some gifted child educators. I don't think it has anything to do with having talents. I wonder how Dabrowski came up with this idea, since he says he never met anyone who went through all the levels...
 

Mole

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Giftedness and Positive Disintegration

Over-excitability (OE) is sign of giftedness.

And the gifted have an Intelligence Quotient (IQ) over 130.

So imagine you have a normal IQ of 100 and you were talking to someone with an IQ of 70 - how would you feel?

Well for someone with an IQ of 130 they feel the same talking to you.

And the gifted are different. They are not only different in IQ but they are also different emotionally - in particular they are called, "over-excitable". Unfortunately this is a pejorative word, so I prefer highly excitable or emotionally labile.

And naturally the gifted are different in other ways as well.

For instance they grow and develop as persons through positive disintegration.

Positive disintegration is not even possible for the normal person because they have already reached their potential integration.

It is important to note that positive disintegration is a step towards greater integration. Positive intergration is not a step towards disintegration.

However regression is a step towards disintegration.

And MBTI is regressive. MBTI does not lead to greater integration. This is plain when you see MBTI has no intellectual integrity.

How odd it is that lack of intellectual integrity leads to moral turpitude.

Regression though is comforting. It takes us back to childhood - we regress back to childhood.

Regression can be useful in therapy - as long it is regression in the service of the ego - but when intellectual integrity is absent, this is not possible.

So MBTI is not even therapeutic.

So what is it?
 

Simplexity

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Dabrowski I think had some good thoughts. I remember reading about him when I was doing an essay on education. I didn't know positive disintegration had that much to do with overexcitabilities. I thought overexcitabilities were a function that influenced mostly gifted people and that positive disintegration was sort of an all inclusive theory, anyone could achieve a certain level regardless of ability.
 

entropie

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So imagine you have a normal IQ of 100 and you were talking to someone with an IQ of 70 - how would you feel?

Well for someone with an IQ of 130 they feel the same talking to you.

I do see your point here :D
 

Totenkindly

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I'm always cautious about attaching things like IQ to self-actualization, although the ability to perceive things from multiple angles and intuit things obviously helps with self-insight and long-term life goals.

I faintly remember reading this last year when the thread started. Just reading it now is a bit overwhelming after coming so far on my own life journey; it resonates a little too much. As far as D's third factor goes, years ago in a spiritual context I told a friend I trusted that I always felt compelled to grow and change in order to actualize, and it was like I was peddling a bike like mad down a bumpy street, my heart bouncing along behind like tin cans strung to the back bumper. I still feel that way. It took a long time for me to realize not everyone had that drive and some either don't see it or they're just happy where they are.
 

Mole

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Dabrowski I think had some good thoughts. I remember reading about him when I was doing an essay on education. I didn't know positive disintegration had that much to do with overexcitabilities. I thought overexcitabilities were a function that influenced mostly gifted people and that positive disintegration was sort of an all inclusive theory, anyone could achieve a certain level regardless of ability.

Giftedness is exclusionary.

You can see this with a part of giftedness, IQ.

IQ does not measure quantity, it measures rarity. So the normal person, and that is almost everyone, is about 100.

And the person at 160 is equally as rare as someone at 40.

And oddly enough this is why the gifted are often sympatico with those of low IQ. Both are different from the normal. Both are not understood by the normal. And both are socially excluded by the normal.

And because we all live under the Bell Curve, the percentage of gifted and those of low IQ is very, very low. So low you may not meet a 160 or a 40 in your entire life.

And positive disintegration is painful and disorientating, and is avoided by those who have achieved a normal integration.

I mean a normal person can't see the distinction between positive disintegration and chaos.

And we perceive by making distinctions - and the more distinctions, the more we see - and the more distinctions we perceive, the higher the IQ.

So the gifted see more distinctions - you might say, they see more pixels in the same picture - and so they find it easy to see the distinction between positive disintegration and chaos.

So you might say the gifted see a brighter, clearer picture.

So you can see the gifted don't see the same thing as the normal.

And interestingly, they don't feel the same thing as the normal.

So sympathy, which means feeling the same as, it not much use to the gifted or to those of low IQ.

And it is by positive disintegration that the gifted are able to move from sympathy to empathy.

While for the normal, sympathy works.

And the normal, in spite of what they say, can't see the distinction between sympathy and empathy.
 

Usehername

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And interestingly, they don't feel the same thing as the normal.

So sympathy, which means feeling the same as, it not much use to the gifted or to those of low IQ.

And it is by positive disintegration that the gifted are able to move from sympathy to empathy.

While for the normal, sympathy works.

And the normal, in spite of what they say, can't see the distinction between sympathy and empathy.

How can you say that they don't "feel the same thing as the normal"?
 

Totenkindly

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So you might say the gifted see a brighter, clearer picture.
So you can see the gifted don't see the same thing as the normal.
And interestingly, they don't feel the same thing as the normal.

So sympathy, which means feeling the same as, it not much use to the gifted or to those of low IQ.

And it is by positive disintegration that the gifted are able to move from sympathy to empathy.

So what is your personal narrative in regards to positive disintegration? It sounds like you have one but haven't yet described it, focusing instead on a broad conceptual level.
 

nolla

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Hmm... I think the IQ is not what Dabrowski meant. The OE means that when you get (emotionally) hit, it hurts more than with normal people. You will have more motivation to go through the process. The IQ might have an effect to the success of the integration, though. Maybe its like a labyrinth of thoughts that you need to pass. The intelligent person finds a way more easily.

It took a long time for me to realize not everyone had that drive and some either don't see it or they're just happy where they are.

Yes, this seems very strange for me too...
 

Mole

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How can you say that they don't "feel the same thing as the normal"?

How can I say it?

From personal experience - from belonging to a gifted group for five years - and from the literature.
 

Mole

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So what is your personal narrative in regards to positive disintegration? It sounds like you have one but haven't yet described it, focusing instead on a broad conceptual level.

Yeah, I feel more comfortable on the broad conceptual level.

I need to protect myself emotionally so I share my personal experience with my gifted group.

In the gifted group my experience is normal - here it is exotic.

Here my emotional experience arouses unconscious emotional defences. And after a while it becomes tiresome dealing with the emotional defences of others for no good purpose.

I recognise the broad conceptual level does keep me emotionally distant from you.

And this is the price I pay for emotionally protecting myself.
 

nolla

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If you have high OE, why don't you go disintegrate? Would get rid of those defenses.
 

Mole

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Their feeling are more intense. I'm sure they still have the same basic emotions.

It is the intensity and quickness of the emotion - like quicksilver.

When I am talking to a gifted person, it is like flowing water. But when I am talking to a normal person it is like treacle.

Also you must realise there is tremendous pressure to conform. If you are normal, you don't notice the pressure at all. It's like your internal pressure is the same as the external social pressure, and so there is nothing to feel. It is invisible to you.

I think I would have to say that the emotions are not the same.

Or I might say, the emotions in a gifted group are the same, and the emotions in a normal group are the same.

But the emotions in a gifted group and the emotions in a normal group are different.

And of course when normal parents have a gifted child, it is no wonder we have the drama of a gifted child.

I would like to emphasize that the gifted are very tiny in number.

It is commonly thought that we are all gifted but in reality almost all of us are normal.
 

Mole

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If you have high OE, why don't you go disintegrate? Would get rid of those defenses.

Why don't I go disintegrate?

The defences I refer to are psychological defences and they are unconscious. We are unaware when we are being defensive.

If I am consciously defending myself emotionally against you, this is not a psychological defence because I am conscious of doing it - I am consciously choosing to do it.

It sounds to me though, you are a little threatened by me. And, "why don't you go disintegrate", sounds like, "why don't you go get f**cked".

And, why don't I go get f**cked - because I have too much self respect.
 

nolla

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Umm... I didn't mean to send that message. I really did want to know why you choose to live in a state of stress if you could change it. Or is there really an option? Do you think it just "happens"?

I supposed that the unconscious defenses must also change in the process, while I think the process itself has to be at least partially conscious.
 
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