Gender Roles

[Athenian200]

I am not always treated as an "F" woman. Fi and Fe can be totally different creatures. I find I may be treated as a "T" woman actually, until it is discovered that I am quite sensitive. Then people become very gentle with me, to the point where it can feel condescending almost. Then it's all "honey" and "sweetheart" in a soft voice.

Oh, yes, I've noticed that too.

I'd say it's actually more complex than T=masculine and F=feminine. It's actually much more insideous... Fe is "feminine," Te is "masculine." Fi and Ti aren't really part of the equation. What counts is how typically Te or Fe you look, usually. Depending on function development, an FP can seem masculine because of Te, and a TP can look feminine because of Fe. But the opposite also happens, where the Extraverted version of whatever function they actually prefer comes through.

There are of course complexities resulting where a person has learned to "dress up" another function (sometimes even Te or Fe itself) to look more like Te or Fe due to external pressures. It's really not as simple as it seems. Then again, few things are.

 

[Alwar]

T men, how does the world treat you compared to F men?

They probably treat me as they do most men, but I would imagine F men have a lot of problems with accusations of femininity and being gay if they are overly feely.

there's got to be something better than expecting/demanding all men to be masculine and all women to be feminine. Because that's extremely psychologically/emotionally damaging to the ones that aren't.

Science is starting to understand gender and their differences, neuroscience in particular is pretty exciting in this regard. It appears that gender is basically a continuum, that when viewed holistically there are clear differences in physiology (both outward and in the brain) and thus tendencies or nature. However, because it is a continuum, you have people in the gray areas. For example, Steven Pinker mentioned how women who recieve testosterone treatments for some illness I can't recall, end up having increased spatial abilities, not to mention more aggressive and assertive behavior.

There was a recent article on a study that found gay men have feminized brains, with wiring in the amygdala (emotional processing) very much analogous to females, and the hypothalamus (sexual behavior) smaller than heterosexual males. They also have more symmetrical brains, and have greater language skills, both of which are dominated by females. Transvestite males have similar results.

I say this is exciting because if you care about reason and understand the gender continuum, you then have no choice but to tolerate people on the margins or gray areas of that continuum because it is futile to expect or force them to change. So if you have a daughter that ignores the doll and plays with the blocks instead, sure it may be a passing phase, but you may also have a little architect or engineer on your hands, and in light of the science coming out you should cater to those skills as she may make great contributions later in life despite it being a male dominated field, rather than shove the doll in her face and make her wear a dress.

In regard to gender roles, it is difficult to define them despite the scientific evidence coming out because we didn't evolve to live the way we now do. All you can do is create an atmosphere of tolerance by allowing equal opportunities for people to show what they can do. Sure, women will never dominate in the realm of physical brutishness, but we don't live in a world of wife/daughter poaching anymore (most of us anyway). The gender differences in overall intellectual capacity appear to have been overstated, and I would expect to see greater flexibility in these perceived roles as time goes on.

 

[LucrativeSid]

I'm usually treated with respect and I have no complaints. Then again, I'm a masculine male T, so I'm kind of what everyone expects me to be, and probably what a lot of people want me to be. I don't know how the world treats F men, but I can't imagine it's too much different.

Two things to mention.

1. A guy can be an F and still be a very typical male.
2. I think that most the time the world treats you how you demand to be treated.

I think that whether you're a T male or a F male, you'll still run into the same amount of problems. I'm expected to be a T, but that doesn't mean that everyone appreciates it all the time.

 

[Skyward]

Question 2: F men, how does the world treat you compared to T men?

I only have problems with ESTPs. Nothing against the type (The ESTPs here are great), but they're the ones that think I'm some alien weirdo that needs fixing. The rest find me to be, at least, 'that kinda weird guy, but he's nice.' At least I can be myself around them. My longest friend is an INtP.

I found out through my father that my adviser in school (I'm a charter school kid, probably means something in this regard, too), who is some sort of xNFJ, notices that a lot of students in my advisory look up to me. I was surprised.

My town has a heavy FJ population (I know 5 INFJs offhand, and a couple ENFJs and a couple ISFJs) and is a strong christian community (7 Lutheran churches, and at least one of every popular christian denomination) so letting others be themselves is a value most of the people I know have. F men are common here, now that I think about it. I only have one T friend and he has a slightly more developed F, too.

 

[entropie]

Well I can be the epitome of an organized, fast-paced and emotion-ignoring thinker, aswell as I can be very sensitive, even sensible, if not all-emo-powered totally destructable.

Therefore I dont think its about emotions.

What I figured more is that for example the whole family of my gf is concerned with nature life, animals, fantasy books and the fine arts, while in my family the topics are economics, craftmanship, new technologies and finances.

The only problem I have with F so far is that I feel needless in a discussion round with them and have to force my self to say that I love to talk about all the different sorts of flowers there are.

I recently build a small alcove in their garden together with my gf, that gave me relief .

I really like to collect alot of different information from other views on the world, so dont get me wrong, I love to talk botany, there are some really intresting plants. But after having spent more like 2 days with my gf's family, I am done

 

[ZiL]

Question 1

Depends on who I'm around. My friends have learned to get my typical behavior. They know I am understanding and like to help them solve their problems or vent, but they know I'll never be the one to give out hugs and "sweetie, it'll be okays." I am sympathetic/empathetic in a less overt way. Others...I tend to tone my personality down around much of my family, because I feel I'd just scare them. Whenever I act more myself I notice they start to get weird glints in their eyes when they're looking at me. Nobody ever forced me to be girly, I gravitated towards dolls and clothes on my own. I loved ballet class. But I also loved legos, reading about meteorology and astronomy, playing with my microscope set... I was a jack of all trades as a child, and my actual parents never forced me in any particular direction, though they did take issue with my propensity for arguing with them. I was generally a considerate child and I never was a troublemaker, but man would I argue or say something blunt if something didn't make sense to me. I've stifled this element of my personality to some regard when I'm out in "the world," but honestly I'd like to revive some of it.

With guys though, I definitely do feel pressure to change to fit into a more "feminized" role, and I really hate that, as most of the guys I've been involved with have been more feminine than me. Can't we just be a couple with wacked-out gender identities? It should be more about the individuals involved, not about fitting into the grand myth what is male and what is female.

I guess I don't have too many overt problems, but I notice that I surprise people when we get into deeper discussions. On the surface I'm very chilled out and friendly, but if someone starts talking too much for their own level of competency on a subject, I'll suddenly go crazy on their ass and become very argumentative . I've got a semi-feminized, sweet veneer, but man.... I know I can surprise people. But that may or may not be related to gender roles. It may just be due to the fact that they got used to only one side of my personality.

It all very much depends on the people that surround you though. I can usually sniff out people who will expect something out of me I can't give due to my gender, and I avoid them at all costs if I can. But sometimes you can't do that.

 

[the state i am in]

I only have problems with ESTPs.

definitely. so antithetical. i've met a few that are ok, but on the whole, it's a type i very much dislike. i actually have quite a few instances of disliking esfj and esfp males as well. combine the three into a group and it's about as bad as it gets, bc the others take the lead from the estps and are wary of confrontation with the estps.

 

[Phantonym]

Question 3: F women, how does the world treat you compared to T women?

In my opinion, better. In my part of the world, if you over-generalize F women to "housewives/homemakers/softies" and T's to "hardcore career women", then the expected "perfect" woman is seen as somebody in the middle, going towards F. Extremes on both end are often seen as lacking something important and they're often looked down on.

 

[Skyward]

definitely. so antithetical. i've met a few that are ok, but on the whole, it's a type i very much dislike. i actually have quite a few instances of disliking esfj and esfp males as well. combine the three into a group and it's about as bad as it gets, bc the others take the lead from the estps and are wary of confrontation with the estps.

I haven't gotten too close with ENFx men, but the ones I know are good people. I'm good friends with an ENFP and a good acquaintance with an ENFJ.

My ENFP friend provides a more concrete perspective on people. Where I rely on reading into each instance and the connections, he just says things more straight. Not to mention he's probably the cutest-acting guy I know. (He would have more problems with gender roles than me, but he's Bi and an ENFP so it wouldn't faze him)

 

[runvardh]

Things keep on getting expected of me that I just end up not doing. I find some women expecting me to react one way to something and I end up reacting in a different way. Most guys can understand my urges, but find the way that I deal with them somewhat to extremely foreign. They also seem to expect me to announce some big crazy thing I'm thinking of doing, when really I'll say something if I need to and then I go do the crazy thing whether someone is watching or not. My biggest issues seem to be more related to me being IN rather than F and being raised on walking everywhere even if it is several miles.

 

[NewEra]

Question 4: T men, how does the world treat you compared to F men?

Can't relate to any F men, but probably the same. I honestly think the way you're treated has more to do with Introversion vs. Extroversion.

 

[phthalocyanine]

Question 3: F women, how does the world treat you compared to T women?

probably with more acceptance, but with less respect.

 

[Amira]

I don't have time to read all the responses yet, but it's interesting to see some of them.

I'm 1. Being a T girl is really problematic for me a lot of the time. I love jewelry and lace and I am very sentimental, but I don't have an easy time hugging people, touching people while they are talking, giving compliments spontaneously, etc... Many of the things girls do naturally have to be planned if I am going to do them, because my natural mode of showing admiration to a guy, for example, is by wanting to talk more about what they are interested in and get a really good conversation going. This by itself tends to not go over big. I also have kind of a round face (people tell me I have a baby face) and I actually can be rather giggly when talking to people if I'm having a good time and feel like we're getting along well, so it seems to be disconcerting when they realize I am so analytical about everything. It's probably worst with girls my own age, though. Oh well... Once people have been around me for a while they usually realize I am quite friendly despite my unfortunate aloof seeming exterior and I do have a lot of friends of both genders and all ages. I'd rather have it be easier to make good first impressions, though.

 

[nomadic]

my f roommate, me and her have total role reversal right now lolz

i came home from the sauna w my friend just to get her seafood island pizza, bc I promised her i would get it yesterday. but she's not that hungry and hasn't eaten it.

i feel like the mom who waited at home with dinner for the husband that came home late and already ate. lolz

i dunno if this relates, my bad if its off topic. im not very aware right now.

 

[Lauren Ashley]

probably with more acceptance, but with less respect.

Good point. T women get crap about not being feminine enough and F women get crap about not being logical enough to be held to a man's standards.

 

[heart]

As Fi dom and very introverted, I've always been considered too cold and too quiet for female ideal. Conversely when I do show emotion I am told I am too sensitive. If I open up and talk then I am "too intense" So there's just no winning there. In my offline life, I've never been criticized for lack of logic and I am usually thought of as relatively smart----somehow---- so I can't say that being F I've recieved any less respect in that area in offline life. My N seems to come through for me and I can fake people out on the smartness/logic issue. No, most often I've been told I don't show enough to be "feminine."

I agree with ChosenOne, I verse E has a lot to do with how the world views one.

 

[Nighthawk]

Question 4: T men, how does the world treat you compared to F men?

I feel as though being a T male is the only socially acceptable preference that I have. There seem to be biases against I, N and P in society ... at least American society. I don't know any F males, but I imagine they might have it a bit more difficult when people try to project the sterotypical male T role on them. I would imagine many of them have socialize to the extent where they can fake T pretty well however ... just as I fake E, S and J from time to time.

 

[Giggly]

Question 3: From what I see, men are very forgiving, and despite what type of woman you are, there are some men who will prefer your type (and some not). So, F or T, it doesn't matter. You just have to find the right person. But as far as traditional gender roles go, it seems to depend on where you live and personal values, how much those are being practiced or have changed.

 

[heart]

^ But to be clear, the thread seemed to be about how the "world" treats you and not specifically about how lucky one is with the opposite sex. ?

I feel as though being a T male is the only socially acceptable preference that I have. There seem to be biases against I, N and P in society ... at least American society. I don't know any F males, but I imagine they might have it a bit more difficult when people try to project the sterotypical male T role on them. I would imagine many of them have socialize to the extent where they can fake T pretty well however ... just as I fake E, S and J from time to time.

Yes, my husband can present a T exterior very well. He can't do the extrovert fake very long though. But he got massive lack of respect from his mother growing up. She shamed him as being not masculine enough and she also shamelessly exploited his Feeler side to provoke his guilt. His siblings followed her suit.

 

[mortabunt]

My mother's a T, and she's tougth enough to scare the crap out of any man, no matter how lewd or drunk he is. I've seen pictures of her when she was young, and she used to be quite the blonde hottie. *shudders.*