• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

...

The_Liquid_Laser

Glowy Goopy Goodness
Joined
Jul 11, 2007
Messages
3,376
MBTI Type
ENTP
SENG: Articles & Resources - Gifted kids at risk: Who's listening?

IQ correlates positively with a preference for introversion, intuition (by far largest correlation), thinking and perceiving.

Actually according to that article "giftedness" correlates positively with a preference for introversion, intuition, thinking and perceiving. Just skimming the article I couldn't find how they were defining giftedness though. It seemed like they were using a variety of sources: IQ tests, SAT scores, etc..., so I'm skeptical as to what type of uniformity they have among all of their data sources.
 

Splittet

Wannabe genius
Joined
Jun 12, 2007
Messages
632
MBTI Type
INTJ
Actually according to that article "giftedness" correlates positively with a preference for introversion, intuition, thinking and perceiving. Just skimming the article I couldn't find how they were defining giftedness though. It seemed like they were using a variety of sources: IQ tests, SAT scores, etc..., so I'm skeptical as to what type of uniformity they have among all of their data sources.

I wouldn't necessarily just base my statement on that article, would I? (Since intelligence is a major interest of mine, I have seen a lot of IQ data over the years) Anyhow, the article does say the average IQ of all the N types is higher than those of the S types. I am certain introversion is positively correlated with IQ. All data I have seen seem to suggest thinking is just slightly positively correlated with IQ, but basically I think there is very little difference. About the J/P I have seen different data, but I think the article is correct, since giftedness seem to have a pretty strong correlation with perceiving, I think it must be positively correlated with IQ. But sure, I would love to see some better data on this.
 

ygolo

My termites win
Joined
Aug 6, 2007
Messages
5,986
I wouldn't necessarily just base my statement on that article, would I? (Since intelligence is a major interest of mine, I have seen a lot of IQ data over the years) Anyhow, the article does say the average IQ of all the N types is higher than those of the S types. I am certain introversion is positively correlated with IQ. All data I have seen seem to suggest thinking is just slightly positively correlated with IQ, but basically I think there is very little difference. About the J/P I have seen different data, but I think the article is correct, since giftedness seem to have a pretty strong correlation with perceiving, I think it must be positively correlated with IQ. But sure, I would love to see some better data on this.

Quite frankly, this research is better presented than most IQ sources I have seen.

The Author provides an incredibly long list of references, and attributes basically every stat he used to a primary, or made clear how it was derived. In addition, p-values are mentioned along with key correlations. If all IQ research accessible to the web-surfer was this good, I would be far less skeptical. (There is still the charge of the "g Factor" being an unfalsifiable entity, and that ad-hoc hypothesizing is what keeps the notion alive, by constantly changing the IQ tests).
 

Splittet

Wannabe genius
Joined
Jun 12, 2007
Messages
632
MBTI Type
INTJ
So are we saying that a retarded person cannot be Intuitive?

No, a retarded person might very well be an intuitive. Some might say even I fit the description. ;)

Anyhow, thank you for having such good faith in my ability to read statistics. :D I wonder what I did to deserve it ...
 

The Ü™

Permabanned
Joined
May 26, 2007
Messages
11,910
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
No, a retarded person might very well be an intuitive. Some might say even I fit the description. ;)

Anyhow, thank you for having such huge faith in my ability to read statistics. :D

I was gonna say, because most of my high school and middle school years consisted of being in special ed classes (or classes for social misfits), and I was mainly placed in remedial classes.
 

TaylorS

Aspie Idealist
Joined
Aug 6, 2007
Messages
365
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
972
Instinctual Variant
so/sp
Yeah, but the S would more likely use math to figure out the answer, while the N will use a hunch. I think actual science is an ST field, while pseudo-science is NT, since pseudo-science is a combination of speculation and systems (as opposed to people) orientation.

I think a better way of stating this is NT = Theory amd ST = Experiment/Observation. Most scientists are probably ST lab workers, naturalists, field geologists working for a mining company, etc.
 

ptgatsby

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
4,476
MBTI Type
ISTP
Do you know how exactly is evaluated a "normal" IQ test? By "normal" meaning not the online IQ tests one can take for free and have them automatically scored.

It depends on the test. The original IQ tests were quite broad and meant to be predictive of performance in the military. A lot of tests are hangovers from those days.

The more recent ones that have been widely validated and used for research (WAIS and KAIT are the two I keep mentioning, but there are others) tend to have a pretty broad battery of sub tests, everything from recall to word play.

The questions themselves are suppose to test the ability to manipulate and store data, from the past and from the present. For example, a common example on word play is the "Two birds with one stone" or "eggs in one basket". These kind require a certain degree of knowledge beforehand but the tester is looking to see if the mind is able to connect abstractions into concrete examples, etc. Like the free tests - the patterns, etc - those test fluid intelligence a bit more, but are often not built correctly online. A decent example of a more layman's version of these, but have some validation, are the top tests here. They are different than the aptitude tests that are down below.

What I do not understand is how an IQ test is related with openess to ideas. If I recall well it mesures abilities like memory, spacial and visual sense, etc. Aren't those abilities typically related with Ss?

Well, not to put it in too fine of terms... IQ does correlate to openness and to N and is more or less anti-correlated with S/ -openness. It is better to start from there rather than ask the opposite.

The reason why, and this is all theory, is that those that are open to new ideas end up having two ramifications which might be related - they absorb information faster, better and broader and they are more willing to change bad information with good information. Same theory goes for the P>J, I>E.

The tests are suppose to be a battery of sub-tests in order to avoid the aptitude problem. For example, the difference between doing basic word-problems (arithmetic) might depend on all sorts of outside factors, like job/training/education... but the likelyhood of being able to do those at the 130 IQ level and the ability to memorize and repeat/transform a string a numbers is unlikely - most major tests will have 2-5 major groupings of tests, each with 2-5 under that. In the WAIS, those two are part of the same 'verbal' category, as I believe the contradictions and common sense parts are. (Can google WAIS IQ to get a boatload of information on the test.)

The ability to do all of these things well comes down to the rate at which you can absorb and transform information - both from your past and from the present. This generally prefers people who self-test to N.

As for the T I said before, thinking about it better, you are probably right, because the T/F axis does not examine the ability to think or feel, but the preference on a more thinking or more impulsive way of reacting to external stimulis. So it doesn't have to be related with either IQ or intelligence

It just depends on the factors being measured and the tests being used. Using normal distribution, ie: FFM/Big Five, the most significant trait/sub-trait is openness (to ideas, as a sub trait). MBTI does create a few artifacts on the other three dimensions, so while it is correct to say that T/I/P have higher IQs, it's not as clear how accurate it is (or relevent.)

However, it has been shown that it can be significant inside MBTI and outside... But it isn't exactly agreed upon.

A lot of it has to do with distribution, arguments over mean/average, blah blah. Outside of just being a curiousity, I don't consider the I/T/P (and equiv FFM traits, although N- shows influence on some sub-traits in IQ) very important in understanding it... this is very notable when you break down into the 25 or so sub-traits that FFM tends to use and only one sub-trait significantly stands out.

I should mention that despite how I may sound, I have real problems with IQ. They have become exceptionally linear (strong correlations to pure academic testing, which proceeds into college, then into good jobs based upon that alone) and I fear are heading stronger that way due to the need to validate the tests against external factors.

And of course, all of this is pretty topical. Self-directed tests should never correlate that strongly against something that challenges the person... and the correlations across the board tend to be weaker than people think. In a way, the personality-> IQ correlation is akin to asking a person "Are you smart?" in a round about way.
 

GZA

Resident Snot-Nose
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
1,771
MBTI Type
infp
Math =
violent38.gif

That was the best post ever. I feel the same way.

I'm the kind of guy who every teacher says should be getting the highest marks in the class, and is otherwise considered "smart" by other people, but do poorly in school, especially math. My all time low score was a 5% on a test in grade 10. I was trying, too. HA! I just didn't understand it.

However, people often tell me that I word things perfectly, and as I said before, people are kind of otherwise impressed with me sometimes. Not everyone, a lot of people find me silly and stupid, and I can see why, a lot of what I say is just kind of... exhaust from my thoughts, just sort of the random, funny little things that come from all my deeper thoughts.

So what are the coresponding functions with intelligence/academia? Was someone earlier saying that people with a J tendancy often do very well in school? If that is true, it really wouldn't suprise me. School seems to have a judging thing going on as a whole -organised and structured, and very much NOT open ended and flexible.
 

The Ü™

Permabanned
Joined
May 26, 2007
Messages
11,910
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
I think a better way of stating this is NT = Theory amd ST = Experiment/Observation. Most scientists are probably ST lab workers, naturalists, field geologists working for a mining company, etc.

Theory of any kind (science or otherwise) is technically pseudo-science. Psychology is mostly pseudo-science.
 

ygolo

My termites win
Joined
Aug 6, 2007
Messages
5,986
Theory of any kind (science or otherwise) is technically pseudo-science. Psychology is mostly pseudo-science.

Just because something is not a science, doesn't make it a pseudo-science. Only when people take a form of study that is not science and pass it of as one is it a pseudo-science.

Many of the best hypothesis generated for the sciences come from excellent work by philosophers.

I think psychology should stay in the realm of philosophy until something more rigorously testable is created (No ad-hoc hypothesizing to save a theory, sound reasoning to posit the existence of something, adequate use of Occam's Razor,...).
 

Mycroft

The elder Holmes
Joined
Jun 7, 2007
Messages
1,068
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
so/sp
Somewhat off the subject, but my problem with intelligence tests like the ones on the site PT linked is such: I took one when I was feeling tired and hungry and did okay. I took two more at a later time when I was more energized and my scores were markedly better. If these things are carefully calculated to measure innate intelligence, I would expect something like hunger not to make such a difference.
 

TaylorS

Aspie Idealist
Joined
Aug 6, 2007
Messages
365
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
972
Instinctual Variant
so/sp
Theory of any kind (science or otherwise) is technically pseudo-science.

Wrong, what determines what is science or not is falsifiability. All science starts with problems that are explained with a falsifiable hypotheses. then that falsifiable hypothesis is tested via experiment or observation.
 

Ghost of the dead horse

filling some space
Joined
Sep 7, 2007
Messages
3,553
MBTI Type
ENTJ
Somewhat off the subject, but my problem with intelligence tests like the ones on the site PT linked is such: I took one when I was feeling tired and hungry and did okay. I took two more at a later time when I was more energized and my scores were markedly better. If these things are carefully calculated to measure innate intelligence, I would expect something like hunger not to make such a difference.
No need to have such problem. Pretty much all measuring in subject to some conditions. Thermometer gives too high readings if the sun shines directly in to it, for example.

I think the analogy with IQ test and a race fits better. Measuring the performance of 100m track runners..well, they and pretty much everyone else expects them to optimize all the conditions that might effect their results.

IQ test is a maximum performance test. Other such tests are the Cooper test (running maximum distance over 12 minutes) and Peak Expiratory Flow test, used in medicine to measure person's expiratory performance. Instructions for both of those tests often note that the results are a variable of motivation. It can be considered a minus. Yet, given a treshold of motivation (just enough), the motivation practically stops being a factor in the results. Running results become mostly a function of VO2MAX and running economy, and PEF results a function of the power of chest muscles and the expiratory system's resistance to exhalation.

So what is a critique of maximum performance tests, becomes a reason to advocate such tests, provided that a maximum effort is indeed given.

Btw, a few questions for Ss.
How would you rate the "factuality" of my statements on the scale of fact/opinion?
What could I do to provide better information for S-type thinkers? Was I overly vague in a senseless N way?
Did I just present a collection of irrelevant information bits, or a solid, logically understandable case?
How much more would the above writing make sense, if I would provide a source for each and everyone of the said statements?
Should I have proven my statements better in order for them to be useful?
 

Veneti

New member
Joined
Aug 19, 2007
Messages
264
MBTI Type
XNTX
I think you'll find traditional IQ tests have been designed by NT's.

So, NT's will come out on top.

An extroverted NT is more likely to be focused on social intellect and less on pure knowledge as an introvert will have greater free time for this.

Hence, the INT is more likely to be favoured in IQ.

Even then though, these features only provide a potential which depends on the motivation of the person to fully develop.

Lately they've been looking more towards so called emotional IQ which is some way of promoting the F,P,S type traits. (Effective management requires the ability to manage all types of people).

Anyway, the world is built on scientific process and as such its highly likely that the inherent traits of the rationals (NT's) are more highly rewarded in IQ tests.

Now just imagine if the world was determined by the ability to play a guitar well... to perform on stage. It would be a completely different situation with IQ.
 

Andy K Octopus

New member
Joined
Sep 5, 2007
Messages
49
MBTI Type
INFJ
I can remember some important dates, I was a history major, but I remembered much easier the theories and currents of history more so than the exact dates.


I was a history major as well, but I always remember the dates and alot of even minor characters, little factoids and such. I get obsessed with little details. Sometimes I can't see the forest because of the trees, historically speaking. I get too into minutia. I guess that is a reflection of the J (detail oriented) v. P (bigger picture) way of thinking
 

lastrailway

New member
Joined
Aug 11, 2007
Messages
508
...The tests are suppose to be a battery of sub-tests in order to avoid the aptitude problem. For example, the difference between doing basic word-problems (arithmetic) might depend on all sorts of outside factors, like job/training/education... but the likelyhood of being able to do those at the 130 IQ level and the ability to memorize and repeat/transform a string a numbers is unlikely - most major tests will have 2-5 major groupings of tests, each with 2-5 under that. In the WAIS, those two are part of the same 'verbal' category, as I believe the contradictions and common sense parts are. (Can google WAIS IQ to get a boatload of information on the test.)...

Yes, this seems reasonable.
Thanks for the info. My knowledge in both IQ and MBTI is less than basic, and I understand that any attemp to correlate the two systems can be made only in a theorhetical sphere. I don't think intelligence and personality theories can give many conclusions to people who, like me, are uneducated in and a bit suspicious towards psychology. These are very lattest interests of mine, and I welcome all info I can get about either
 

warick

New member
Joined
Oct 16, 2007
Messages
79
MBTI Type
INTJ
Link


In summary, here's what the statistics indicate about the correlation between personality traits and IQ:


Other personality traits being the same, an iNtuitive person (one who grasps patterns and seeks possibilities) is 27 times more likely to have a high IQ than a Sensing person (one who focuses on sensory details and the here-and-now).
Again, other traits being the same, an Introverted person is 8 times more likely to have a high IQ than one who is Extraverted; a Thinking (logic-oriented) person is 2.5 times more likely to have a high IQ than a Feeling (people-oriented) person; and a Judging person (one who seeks closure) is about twice as likely to have a high IQ than a Perceiving person (one who likes to keep his options open).
Moreover, if you encounter an INTJ (Introverted, iNtuitive, Thinking, Judging), there is a 37% probability that his IQ places him in the top 2 percent of the population. The probability is 20% for an INTP, 15% for an INFJ, and 8% for an INFP. These four types account for 66% of the high-IQ population but only 6% of the total population.

* August 26, 2007: I apologize for not having documented the source of the statistics that I cite here. I dimly recall finding them on or via the website of Mensa USA, but I am not certain of that. And I can no longer find the source by searching the web. I did transcribe the statistics to a spreadsheet, which I still have. So, the numbers are real, even if their source is now lost to me.

So he admits himself that he doesn't recall the source, so the credibility of this is slightly suspect.

-IQ is a general indicator of logic, which is only a small part of overall intelligence.
-A high IQ isn't a guarantee for success, for instance, INTJ's generally have high IQ's but we also have more anti-social tendencies/quirks. This can prevent a smart person from fitting in with social norms (like the sociopaths everone keeps mentioning). It's hard to get into good colleges and get good jobs and get promoted if your personality gets in the way.
-As PT mentioned, most criminals have low IQ's. A low IQ can be even worse socially than a high one. A low IQ doesn't make someone stupid, but they often go hand in hand. A person can be unintelligent and still successful if they apply themselves properly (like if they have a good personality).
 

scantilyclad

almost nekkid
Joined
Jul 31, 2007
Messages
2,106
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
4w5
Instinctual Variant
so/sp
I've done alright on IQ tests, but i'm also another Math hating INFP, so my scores are always drastically lower in anything that involves numbers.

I remember in Algebra 2 i would take a test and think that all the answers would be right, and i would score a 17% on the test. i really hate math.

and also if any certain type is supposedly smarter, i would say it would be NTs without a doubt. Then NFs, followed by SJs followed by SPs. but its just an opinion. People can be intelligent on so many different levels.
 

Ghost of the dead horse

filling some space
Joined
Sep 7, 2007
Messages
3,553
MBTI Type
ENTJ
We dont have to include everything synonymous with "good" under the name "intelligence". There are abilities, traits, skills, etc, etc.. these somehow tend to be forgotten in IQ debates.

If someone has IQ and another one has ability in some skill, what would be improved if the other person's ability would be renamed as intelligence? Nothing. What would be more helpful, would be for people to understand that other things that intelligence matter in where they matter.

My intuition tells me that we can do a great division between two different types of intelligence, and that the rest of the divisions are rather small compared to the two. Intelligence in well-defined problems, and that in fuzzy issues. Might be wrong, or right.

If "math" is just another name for "well-defined", then I'd agree with you. I have seen that people tend to use the concept in such manner. Having less interest/ability to solve well-defined problems lowers one's expected IQ score. In my opinion, IQ tests demand both the trait to solve well-defined as well as fuzzy issues (such as, "was this or that a nice thing to do?" or "when you think your feeling about it, does it seem like a good deal?"). In a visual pattern matching test, the patterns usually form a logical sequence, sometimes difficult. But you need the "fuzzy" trait to judge which of the logical explanations is the best and to fill in the sequence.

I would like that they would develop tests to measure the general intelligence in these fuzzy, or parallel processing tasks. I think it could be sort of a test done in an actual environment with a human element, some actors/research assistants who would behave in a certain way, and the problem would have to be solved by interacting with them.

So I'd agree that purely well-defined problems dont measure persons capability accurately, but IQ tests don't exactly have problems like that.
 
Top