The Belief in Personal Experience

[Mole]

Just as for some denominations, the Bible is the last word, personal experience is the last word here.

Ideas can be accepted or rejected, even opinions can be accepted or rejected - unless of course they are based on personal experience - and then they are sacrosanct.

So here it is bad manners to question personal experience.

And I admit I find this as annoying as someone quoting the Bible to me as the last word.

But at the same time I can see that personal experience is the last redoubt. And when personal experience goes, there is nothing left.

So it would be cruel to cast doubt on personal experience.

But my annoyance with you allows me to be a little cruel.

For instance, personal experience is no more than anecdotal.

And the anecdotal can't be used to establish any broader principles.

But worse if you rely ultimately on personal experience, you end up as isolated individuals.

There is no possibility to join together for larger social ends.

Indeed the extreme individualists raise their hands in horror and call it, "Socialism".

But the tragedy is that if you are atomised individuals, you are in fact at the mercy of larger social forces.

And you have no way of understanding these larger social forces, and so they seem mysterious to you. And in response you are attracted to conspiracy theories and paranoia.

When you rely on personal experience and have no understanding of society, you become prey to any scamsters that come along - like Mrs Myers and her daughter Mrs Briggs.

But the faith in personal experience is deep and profound. And can only be described as a religious belief.

And this is a religious belief held by one whole nation.

And this belief is de rigueur here.

 

[Thalassa]

I happen to like socialism. Ice cream for everybody!

 

[Mole]

I happen to like socialism. Ice cream for everybody!

Well, I don't like Socialism and nor does my country. We are democratic capitalists and have been from the very beginning.

However my country does not give the last word to the Bible nor to personal experience.

In fact the larger social forces are openly and traditionally expressed in our political parties.

Our Labor Party is the oldest social democratic party in the world and represents the Unions.

While our Liberal Party represents business.

And both parties have different ideologies and different ethos.

Whereas over there they have two parties of business.

And naturally business believes in the individual and personal experience, simply because they can manipulate and use the individual for their own profit.

In, "The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism", Max Weber show how business and religion work hand in hand.

Over there the politicians regularly and often call upon God, but if they did so here, they would be laughed at.

So over there the belief in personal experience has been nurtured and cultivated by both business and religion until it has been set in stone.

And it seems to me that those who rely on personal experience as the last word are kinda stoney.

Their hearts are shallow and cold and they live in a stoned world of one dimension.

 

[Thalassa]

However my country does not give the last word to the Bible nor to personal experience.

Well, obviously we could use some improvements in our educational system in the U.S.

 

[Mole]

Well, obviously we could use some improvements in our educational system in the U.S.

It's far too late for that.

For Protestantism and Business have had a long and successful marriage over there and you are their children.

 

[jenocyde]

I don't think anyone thinks it's bad manners to question beliefs or personal experiences. But I think it's bad manners to tell someone that there personal experience or belief is wrong. There is a difference.

I also don't understand how relying on personal experience leaves you isolated. Maybe you can define "rely" for me?

 

[Mole]

I don't think anyone thinks it's bad manners to question beliefs or personal experiences. But I think it's bad manners to tell someone that there personal experience or belief is wrong. There is a difference.

I also don't understand how relying on personal experience leaves you isolated. Maybe you can define "rely" for me?

Look around you here.

When we get into an argument, we all try to have the last word.

We all try to be the last authority.

And the last fall back is to say, "Well, this is my own personal experience, and you have your own personal experience, and that's that".

Of course if we did question that, the whole edifice of your society would come crashing down.

So of those things of which we cannot speak, we remain silent.

 

[jenocyde]

So how should arguments of a personal nature end, then? I think there is no system on the planet that wasn't grounded in a personal experience.

 

[Thalassa]

It's far too late for that.

For Protestantism and Business have had a long and successful marriage over there and you are their children.

Oh please. You're exaggerating. America isn't always as bad as it looks on T.V.

 

[Mole]

I think there is no system on the planet that wasn't grounded in a personal experience.

This is an entirely religious belief.

Your mind has been entirely captured by Protestantism.

You are perfectly adapted to your environment.

You fully believe that that there is no system on the planet that isn't grounded in personal experience.

Well, I can tell you I am living in one right now.

And of course to believe there there is no other system on the planet, other than yours, is grotesquely imperial.

 

[Dwigie]

Look around you here.

When we get into an argument, we all try to have the last word.

We all try to be the last authority.

And the last fall back is to say, "Well, this is my own personal experience, and you have your own personal experience, and that's that".

Of course if we did question that, the whole edifice of your society would come crashing down.

So of those things of which we cannot speak, we remain silent.

You have a good point Victor. You made me think because out of over emotionalism I did something similar by invalidating someone's opinion due to the fact that she had not experienced "it".

Now that I think about it, it is wrong. I think that having a different perspective from your own can help us gain insight.
However, we do live some things differently and at times it really is "just that" I feel. Also, I disagree with you when you say that people always try to be the last authority.
Have you never had your mind changed about anything by someone?

 

[jenocyde]

How is that a religious belief or imperial? It seems like you are judging me based on your own personal experience.

 

[Thalassa]

But allowing everyone to have their own opinion is the opposite of Imperialism, which is why we like it. It's valuing others rather than valuing The One Way of being that was established through previous types of government. Actually, thinking only ONE WAY was right is actually kinda what caused Imperialism in the first place - ya know, England and other Western European countries thinking they knew "better" than the native peoples of the lands they dominated.

 

[Athenian200]

I've actually been looking for an alternative to personal experience. I feel it's unreliable and anecdotal, but I haven't been been shown a lot of good alternatives. Religion is one, and it seems arbitrary. Logic is another, but it's too limited to deal with some aspects of reality.

What are the alternatives, Victor? I want to know...

 

[Mole]

Oh please. You're exaggerating. America isn't always as bad as it looks on T.V.

C'mon, we believe America is a force for good in the world, that is why we have been allies since 1904.

What I am trying to say is beyond good and evil.

I am very interested in comparative history. And particularly comparing the histories of North and South America with the history of Oz.

And the comparison reveals vast similarities which only serve to highlight the differences.

So we can learn to understand ourselves better by understanding one another.

But a moralism doesn't take us very far in the direction of understanding.

 

[Mole]

I've actually been looking for an alternative to personal experience. I feel it's unreliable and anecdotal, but I haven't been been shown a lot of good alternatives. Religion is one, and it seems arbitrary. Logic is another, but it's too limited to deal with some aspects of reality.

What are the alternatives, Victor? I want to know...

Well, my dear Athenian, the big historical alternatives are Protestantism and Catholicism.

 

[A Schnitzel]

By definition a person can't believe in anything that doesn't come from personal experience.

 

[Athenian200]

Well, my dear Athenian, the big historical alternatives are Protestantism and Catholicism.

Do you mean that literally, or as a metaphor for individual interpretation versus centralized interpretation?

 

[Mole]

It seems like you are judging me based on your own personal experience.

Hoist on my own petard.

 

[Mole]

By definition a person can't believe in anything that doesn't come from personal experience.

This is simply a dogma.