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Obligation to Others

Halla74

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Same as you Toonia, up to the point where you say to be socially active in the world you need to embrace some of the obligation to others. I mean I guess you do, but I am incredibly socially active and yet don't really feel like I'm hemmed in by obligations and seldom feel any obligation at all. I think it's because obligations placed on me by other people's expectations, I don't really acknowledge them. That doesn't mean I never feel obligated, but if I do then the sense of it has come from within me: I feel that I owe somebody, and so I make a point of fulfilling that.

Bolded above, +1!
 

Athenian200

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It could very much be related to that. I was shamed/guilted a lot in the course of my life with the "social etiquette" thing. (So I still feel guilty when I don't acknowledge someone who called/wrote me just to fill me in on something, and I feel bad for not writing a 'thank you' letter for stuff I don't think is necessary to issue a response on, etc.) And when I've slacked off and trusted that people understand, I still have been bitten by some people who apparently WERE judging me. So it's not all in my head, unfortunately.

Oh, I know. I've often worried about what kind of lasting effect it might have had on you. Whether you'll ever be able to be happy in life because of it. There might be some of it out there, but you shouldn't have to be affected by it to this degree, or have as much respect for that kind of behavior as you've been taught to.

I identify a lot with that statement, although I increasingly get better with just doing the "small talk" thing.

I'm not really that bad at it if someone else initiates it, I guess. I even appreciate it if I'm really bored. The rest of the time it's annoying, though.

I identify with the first half, up to the "uncomfortable" part -- when I run across them again, I actually like talking to them. (So drop me a line sometime! ;) )

Aww, thanks. :) I did kind of miss you, but it's always hard for me to get over that strange "exiled" feeling I get after I've forgotten to interact with a person for a while. It's like over the time I haven't bothered with them, I feel as if I slowly have less and less "right" to interact with a person. Like the connection decays, if you will. I may very well miss them, but I'll feel so unwelcome that I'll just endure it. It's probably got something to do with Si, and how once something is part of my past instead of the present, I'm way less comfortable confronting it again. It's almost like memories tend to make me less fond of something instead of more so... if that makes sense.

What you did just now was enough to dissolve the vague sense of being unwelcome, though. Thanks. :)

I remember doing that for awhile. I'd just avoid people who I knew would ask me to do something because then I'd have to disappoint them or potentially anger them by saying no... or else (more typically) just do it and feel resentful about being "controlled."

Learning how to say "no" helped me alot with that.

Oh my, I think I know what you mean. I can say no, but usually I end up rejecting the person as well as their request. Which makes me more reluctant to do so. Don't get me wrong, I usually enjoy doing stuff for people that they ask of me the first few times, and it can remain comfortable if they reciprocate. If they just take advantage though, it gets old fast.
 

Snow Turtle

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I would likely be willing to do something I don't want to do for someone, if I feel like they really need it and couldn't easily get it from someone else. But that's not really out of friendship so much as my own ideals about compassion. If they just want/expect it, though, forget about it.

Friendship doesn't have it's own values. But I can understand doing something out of compassion too.

Ah, well those would be the ones I dismiss. I don't consider unspoken obligations to be valid. If a person has one, I honestly consider that their problem to handle on their own, because I won't take any responsibility for it.

I guess we wouldn't get along very well, huh?

Hmm. Some examples [These seem to be fundamental]:
Law of Reciprocity - Unspoken rule. [This one needn't be true, but it could be genetically programmed within us]
General trust - Unspoken rule.

There are all unspoken 'obligations' so to speak when it comes to friendship. People don't usually enter relationships or friendships listing all their expectations of other individuals, and unfortunately sometimes some values are taken for granted. That's when miscommunications happen or when values clash.

Anyhow here's a real example of hidden expectations within friendships.
http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/mbti-tm-enneagram-other-personality-matrices/16383-favor.html
 

Athenian200

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Hmm. Some examples [These seem to be fundamental]:
Law of Reciprocity - Unspoken rule. [This one needn't be true, but it could be genetically programmed within us]
General trust - Unspoken rule.

There are all unspoken 'obligations' so to speak when it comes to friendship. People don't usually enter relationships or friendships listing all their expectations of other individuals, and unfortunately sometimes some values are taken for granted. That's when miscommunications happen or when values clash.

Anyhow here's a real example of hidden expectations within friendships.
http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/mbti-tm-enneagram-other-personality-matrices/16383-favor.html

Oh, yeah. I kind of have the reciprocity one. I really lack the general trust one, though. When I go out in public, I'm constantly looking around me as if I were afraid of being attacked. That's why I'm much more comfortable dealing with people through a computer or telephone... because they can't kill me that way.

I suppose I develop the general trust a bit over time, though... to the point that I'm at least satisfied that they're all intimidated by the potential consequences of trying to harm me out in the open. My lack of this makes life VERY hard on me, though. That's one unspoken expectation I wish I DID have. :( Eventually, after I've figured out how a person operates on an unconscious level, I'll begin to think that perhaps they have reasons other than fear of consequences for not harming me, and only then will I start to trust them.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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And, the reverse. Ultimately I want people to WANT to do something out of their natural inclination and free will. I want them to make the choice. I wouldn't want to slant a message in a way that implied I'd be offended if they didn't do it...because it would be meaningless in the end if they did it out of a sense of obligation/guilt/resentment - as others have said. Then I'd just feel bad as well, and then we'd both have had the wrong motiviations for doing things. Ok, I'm all about the motivation. :p Whereas if they did it because they *wanted* to, well, that's a million times better. This isn't to say I wouldn't be inwardly disappointed or hurt if someone chose not to do something I would have liked them to have done - because I might be. But I would also have the added data to know exactly how they feel about things, prioritize things, etc etc. I'd know more about them, and I'd also know more about the nature of the relationship itself.
I related to much of your entire post, but this paragraph in particular really resonated with me. The bolded portion can create difficulty in communication. People who are used to people obligating them, and who are insightful can pick up on the disappointment and then feel obligated to correct it. :doh: How to resolve that it's possible to feel disappointment, but still not expect anything. I don't see disappointment as something that must be avoided at all costs. It really is okay for me to feel it because it is just information that given enough time I can adapt to in some manner. When someone does feel obligated to explain or help me feel better, I view it as though I failed them by unintentionally pressuring them like everyone else. But I also don't think I can live up to the expectation of never feeling disappointments. It can be an interesting dilemma.
 

Snow Turtle

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Oh, yeah. I kind of have the reciprocity one. I really lack the general trust one, though. When I go out in public, I'm constantly looking around me as if I were afraid of being attacked. That's why I'm much more comfortable dealing with people through a computer or telephone... because they can't kill me that way.

Seriously? :shock:

I suppose I develop the general trust a bit over time, though... to the point that I'm at least satisfied that they're all intimidated by the potential consequences of trying to harm me out in the open. My lack of this makes life VERY hard on me, though. That's one unspoken expectation I wish I DID have. :( Eventually, after I've figure out how a person operates on an unconscious level, I'll begin to think that perhaps they have reasons other than fear of consequences for not harming me, and only then will I start to trust them.

Yeah... I wouldn't really define the bolded part as trust. You don't need to trust someone not to screw you over, if you have some kind of insurance. Granted it's possible that they may still screw you over despite the disadvantanges so in that sense I guess you could argue that one needs trust/faith that the other person won't be stupid/crazy enough to engage in such act. It's abit of a fuzzy terminology.
 

substitute

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See it way too much in the Asian side...

That's actually very interesting to me - my last partner was an Arab and I sometimes used to feel a bit suffocated by perceived obligations from his family which consisted of very strict Muslims who had to be allowed to think we were just pals, and even then I still often felt the pinch of obligation so that I used to wonder what it'd be like if I was actually married into the family.

However when we talked about it between us, it turned out he felt similarly regarding me and my friends, though I'd never realized there was any reason why he should. On reflection it became clear that nobody was being any more or less demanding than anyone else, it was just a cross-cultural thing.

Think about it: with someone from your own culture, there are probably just as many obligations, but you don't realize half of them even are there, because it's just things you do naturally, the way you were brought up etc. But with someone from a different culture, there are expectations that are foreign to you and that you have to actually learn and adapt to, so it feels like there are more there. So you're having to fulfill these on top of the ones you do anyway from your own culture.

I learned that in fact, there were lots of things I naturally thought obligatory towards them but actually they didn't - things from my culture that they didn't expect. So I came to recognize that there's a pay off there - there are some new things I have to remember that I didn't think about before, but also lots of things I would normally feel obligated by, these things didn't even cross their minds.

I started to quite enjoy behaving in ways that would've been "rude" amongst Europeans, knowing they were perfectly acceptable with Arabs, and vice versa lol
 

ptgatsby

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That's actually very interesting to me - my last partner was an Arab and I sometimes used to feel a bit suffocated by perceived obligations from his family which consisted of very strict Muslims who had to be allowed to think we were just pals, and even then I still often felt the pinch of obligation so that I used to wonder what it'd be like if I was actually married into the family.

My wife is chinese and her family definitely did suffocate her somewhat. It comes with the trade-off of a good support mechanism, mind you, but the obligations are pretty intense.

However when we talked about it between us, it turned out he felt similarly regarding me and my friends,
<...>

Think about it: with someone from your own culture, there are probably just as many obligations, but you don't realize half of them even are there, because it's just things you do naturally, the way you were brought up etc. But with someone from a different culture, there are expectations that are foreign to you and that you have to actually learn and adapt to, so it feels like there are more there.

That's a good point, and I can see that even with my wife. A lot of this is perspective too. For instance:

- We live farther away from my family, so the "visiting" has a higher cost... so she feels more of a burden visiting my family. Yet, we intentionally stayed closer to her family, since that's what she wanted (of course, it was also because it is closer to work... o_O So many layers)

- My family is a lot less flexible in times - for example, she can visit her family in the evening, but to my family, we need to visit for the better part of the day, on a certain day. It's kind of expected that we'll come over and have dinner/etc.

And then you have the differences - my family, if they think we haven't seen them, tell us that we haven't visited and should. Not terribly subtle, most of the time. Her family is more passive-aggressive and is very asian-guilt. Yet, for her, the direct approach makes her feel very obligated, while the guilt method makes me feel like I haven't been 'fair' (and fairness ranks ultra-high for me).

:thinking: It's pretty messy, isn't it? The culture differences has a lot of levels that make it difficult. Social 'styles', additional dates, different expectations... Interesting.
 

nightning

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I know I feel a push/pull when I fall in love; I want the closeness and revel in it, but at the same time I get scared and want my space to avoid being absorbed.

I feel this obligation to talk to them even if it will drain me, so they'll still be my friend, and if I blow them off too much, I could lose a potential deeper friendship; yet I don't like the pressure.

Social interaction to me has always had obligation built into it.
I identified with what you've said, especially what's quoted. The feeling that you must follow social niceties because they're expected in the friendship really drains me.

I guess people sense that from me. Like the time I went to a church event one of my christian friends invited me to... I was there with another girl, we're all very close to each other. When we were leaving. My christian friend hugged my friend goodbye but not me. Because she knows I don't really do hugs... when actually I wouldn't have minded at all.

Hmmmm you know how they say about 3 types of attachment styles in babies? Well this kind of reminds me of that... Avoidant attachment style. Wanting attention but rejecting it when it's there. That's exactly what this feels like. :doh:

I keep to my word and stick to my arrangements and I expect the same of others. Whether they choose to redefine their part or my part in their heads later on, I'll still stick to the original understanding. I find this is pretty effective - most people will avoid being called out or denounced as "score keepers". People who do that tend to know deep down that it's immature and doesn't win them any friends, so even if they're doing it, you can call their bluff.
*nods* This is usually what I try to do. Except in cases where they (mostly my parents) insist I should do something I didn't truly agree to. And they hold me for their assumption that I agreed. Family obligations give me a headache. I wish I can be free to just do what I wanted to do for others instead of this expectation.

My wife is chinese and her family definitely did suffocate her somewhat. It comes with the trade-off of a good support mechanism, mind you, but the obligations are pretty intense.
Culture... Seems like obligations to the family is what supports the system. I guess most Asians have been taught social obligations are expected to the point that it's ingrained into us. At times it makes me feel uneasy when I'm asking for a favor... because I feel as if I'll have to return it... settle the score as soon as possible.
 

substitute

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:thinking: It's pretty messy, isn't it? The culture differences has a lot of levels that make it difficult. Social 'styles', additional dates, different expectations... Interesting.

Dude, all I can say is that I feel for ya dude. But I also feel for her. Asian families in general tend to be more dutiful than us Western schmucks. I dunno - my ex only became ex by death, so I dunno what would've evolved if he'd stayed alive.

But either way, I think you've got to make a point of clearly communicating the differences between what YOU feel as obligation and what they do. Make it clear that you are a person who cares very much about things being FAIR, so that if they in future quibble with this or that, they'll understand it's a cultural thing and not just blame you for not trying.

With my Arab former partner, it took some time explaining that it wasn't just a simple thing... the cross-cultural thing... they got to know me enough to know I wasn't a bad person, just oblivious to Middle Eastern culture. So I persuaded them to make a point of being more explicit with me, and after a while it became natural.

Now, my experience with Asians is that they're more open to foreign cultures being right than Middle Easterns, so if you made an effort with this (not suggesting you're not already, but in their view...) they might make allowances for you...
 

substitute

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nightning said:
*nods* This is usually what I try to do. Except in cases where they (mostly my parents) insist I should do something I didn't truly agree to. And they hold me for their assumption that I agreed. Family obligations give me a headache. I wish I can be free to just do what I wanted to do for others instead of this expectation.

You are not obligated. The obligation is in their head and they try to transplant it to yours. It's up to you as to whether or not they succeed.
 

Fiver

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I try to respect the other person's wishes and be aware of my own idiosyncracies. If something is important to the other person AND they are important to me, I am happy to make the sacrifice for them. Obligation isn't usually an issue for me because I decide what level of relationship I want to have and what the boundaries will be. Ultimately, 'Begin as you intend to go on' is my guide. In other words, the first time you meet your inlaws, slap them across the face.
 

Vildechaya

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Obligation is hard for me too. Either way. Social graces are confusing . It appears that you are very thoughtful and will avoid hurting anyone.
 

INTJMom

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I think much in a person's experiences growing up affect how we relate to a significant degree. This is a chicken and egg question, but I have some sense of how these patterns were reinforced in my socialization. I moved around a lot growing up and didn't ever get involved with people to the extent that I had an obligation to a group or something. I was inundated with a sense of obligation to a set of religious ideals, so that plays some role, but it was more abstract than social. During adolescence and early adulthood, I didn't manage to belong to a social group or clique. Part of the reason was that I could see how many particular behaviors were expected. There was a lot of obligation involved in order to gain acceptance. I think in order to be socially involved in the world, you almost have to embrace some of the obligation to others. The people who naturally came to me were often socially ostracized. In some cases these people had boundary issues, but not ill intent. Because of that I acted out drawing clear boundaries without obligations. If someone talked to me too long, I would tell them that I "appreciated seeing them, but that I need to go now" or something like that.

I also don't think people should feel pressured to not be obligated because there are pragmatic reasons for it. I guess it is a topic that effects most everyone, something I have felt a little out of step with, and an area that can cause confusion.
Sorry I'm a little late to the conversation, but I feel almost exactly the same way you do about social obligation. For me, I have spent most of my life trying to avoid situations where the obligations were expected but unspoken... that creates a LOT of anxiety in me. My issue is that I feel so inept at "perceiving" what the expectations are... and then I fail to meet the expectations... and then I am harshly judged for failing to meet the expectations... and so on... And so, I found that avoiding getting into those situations in the first place was the best way to avoid epic failure.

In the last 5 years or so, I have been more daring and have been more willing to enter into relationships. I just try to be as honest and up front as I can with what I'm thinking and feeling... and I guess I also let people judge me if they want to... I probably never prevented people from gossiping about me anyway...
 

substitute

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I try to respect the other person's wishes and be aware of my own idiosyncracies. If something is important to the other person AND they are important to me, I am happy to make the sacrifice for them. Obligation isn't usually an issue for me because I decide what level of relationship I want to have and what the boundaries will be. Ultimately, 'Begin as you intend to go on' is my guide. In other words, the first time you meet your inlaws, slap them across the face.

Yes... :yes:

That can come off as you saying basically "I call the shots in this relationship, so tow the line or ship out!" But I know what you mean and I know it's not like that. I'm more than willing to be reasonable and stuff, as long as I don't feel coerced into it. It must always be my decision, what I do, just as it should always be your decision what you do.

I will never blame you for my own choices, cos i know that even if you tried to force me to a particular one, I'd have no problem saying no if I really didn't wanna do it. So I've no patience or indulgence really for when people try to pin their actions on me by making out they had an obligation.

There might even be times when I consciously allow decisions to be made for me, but that's when I've already decided to allow that of my own free will, having realized that I'm cool with any of the options, or maybe I just want to invite a random element into an equation.

It's because I take responsibility for my actions and choices so very seriously, that I refuse to allow other people to make them for me.
 

Tiltyred

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I have to feel like every exchange is authentic, so I avoid any arrangement that forces the other person to do anything.

But I will say what I like and I hope the other person does, too. To the extent that I can, I'm happy to do things for the other person that make them feel loved. To the extent that they can, I expect them to do things for me that make me feel loved. One is, don't call me on the phone unless it's urgent; we can chat online. Two is, give me room to breathe. etc.

It all has to be negotiated.

And part of this is solved by etiquette, although that's kind of disappearing. But it is really easier if you know what the polite thing to do is and you just do it. It generally doesn't require that much effort -- unless you associate with more people than you can really maintain in your life. Which is why I usually only have one or two friends at a time, no husband, no kids, no inlaws, etc.

I hate it when I really like someone and am generous and affectionate to them because I want to be, and they can't accept it because it makes them feel obligated. I don't take anyone else's gifts as implied obligations. To me, that's an ugly way to think. But I have been called to task about it, too. (I did this for you, therefore you should do this for me.)
 

sunset5678

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I learned not to obligate myself to anyone..because people will obligate you
right out of your 'me' time. I've learned there's a difference betweeen pass-
ing favors or agreeing to things out to everyone you socialize with and think-
ing about who actually deserves them.
 

Mempy

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By not allowing others to make me feel obligated, I am better able to sincerely like them. This is why it's easy to say "no". I do it with a sense of personal honesty that I respect and like them and so would not put them through the shame of being a bother.

That's a good perspective to have on things, Toon. I'd never thought to look at it that way. Instead of being really rattled by a "no," you can look at the honest answer as a sign of the health of your relationship. Your partner is respecting you enough to be honest with you and is, at the same time, trusting that you're mature enough to respect their choice and to see it not as evidence of rejection or malice, but as just their honest feelings on the matter. That's a lot of respect and trust. If anything, it's the opposite of a sign of rejection! But I know how very easy it is for negative thoughts of rejection and worthlessness to creep into your mind sometimes.

We can't control whether or not we receive a "no"; we can only control how we respond to the declination and the perceived rejection. The key is perspective, is viewing things right. If we perceive a threat, we will respond as if there is one. If we do not see things as a threat, we will treat them calmly and without fear or anxiety.

When you're dealing with someone that can obviously decline you and say no to you, you know that when they say yes, more than likely that's their real answer.

Feeling beholden to others is something I often experience. There's a downside to it, in addition to whatever other downsides there may be, and that is that I often worry that other people operate the same way; that they feel beholden to me. It's a terrible feeling, but it's hard to see outside my own mindset, hard to imagine what it would be like to be someone who didn't feel beholden to others, and, therefore, hard to trust that they won't feel hurt and rejected if I say no. If you can see it from a perspective that allows you to see respect and trust rather than rejection in the answer "no," then you can better trust that others will see things the same way, and it's that trust that will allow you to say no more easily.
 
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