Suicide and social power

[Park]

The problem with some people is that they lean on you, the more you take the more they lean.

One thing to absolutely make sure is that they are not doing drugs...and removing them from other connections that can take them down as well.

Isn't this a contradiction?
Hmm, and if not arn't there at least some contradicting suggestions floating around in the above?

 

[Veneti]

Isn't this a contradiction?
Hmm, and if not arn't there at least some contradicting suggestions floating around in the above?

The first para should have read, "The more you give, the more they lean". But I would expect most people to know the concept and haven't read literally the black letter expression (As it was an interrupted train of logic, as I start going off in tangents) It would appear you don’t understand the general concept.

One thing to absolutely make sure is that they are not doing drugs...and removing them from other connections that can take them down as well.

This isn't a contradiction at all; drugs and other negative input are what leverage the problem in the first place. You seem to read the words rather than the concept and evidently you have placed a comma after the word "connections" and not seen the underlying concept.

Once again, we have the grammatical (linear) types literally reading absolutely what they see, I seriously wonder how they handle unstructured problem solving. Quickly written posts require the reader to assume that all statements are not highly “proof read” and thus apply some logic.

Also, the fact you criticized my post when I am actually trying to help another person out about a serious matter is quite concerning. Is it something retentive?

 

[Park]

The first para should have read, "The more you give, the more they lean".

That was what I read, I didn't notish you switched *give* with *take*. Which means that I'm clearly not:

the grammatical (linear) types literally reading absolutely what they see, I seriously wonder how they handle unstructured problem solving. Quickly written posts require the reader to assume that all statements are not highly “proof read” and thus apply some logic.

To me, there seemed to be a contradiction in this:

its better that they fall early and learn to pick themselves up and take the fight forward in life. Only they can improve themselves and worse still is that the longer you prop them up the more that comes crashing down.

snip

One thing to absolutely make sure is that they are not doing drugs...and removing them from other connections that can take them down as well.

If it's better that people fall early and learn to pick themselves up etc., wouldn't it also be better then to let them take the drugs they desire and socialize what whoever they want to?

Also, the fact you criticized my post when I am actually trying to help another person out about a serious matter is quite concerning.

Are you saying that it's not ok to question what people write if their intentions are good? Or is it my lacking *serious funeral director attitude* you find concerning? If it's the latter, I've lived with suicide threats through the majority of my life and still do, while it may seem like a cold thing to say, it just gets old.

 

[prplchknz]

I actually agree about letting the people take the drugs if they make them feel better. As long as they're not screwing people over to get them.

 

[whiteraven]

Drug or alcohol use increases the risk of suicide. That is probably what he is indicating by that statement.

Interesting article: Postgraduate Medicine: Principles of suicide risk assessment

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

- Suicide is killing a person your loved ones holds dear.
- Suicide threats is threatening to kill a person your loved ones hold dear.
- Suicidal thoughts is playing with the idea of killing a person your loved ones hold dear.

That is very true. After my suicidal loved one came into my work and told me they had returned from downtown considering to jump off a particular building, I described to them in detail the effect that would have had on the people who love them and to promise me that if they ever considered that again that they would think through the emotional wreckage they would leave behind. That way if they did choose to follow through i would know they did it with the full knowledge of the harm they were causing. I don't know if that was the right thing, but i did that out of instinct. At least they never did go through with it.

There was another night i got a call in my dorm from one of the deans saying that a suicide note was found. I didn't own a car and begged a ride off the first person i saw in the parking lot to go downtown to that building. The first thing this person who was barely an acquaintance of ours said was "Why didn't you get them help?" She was yelling at me even though she didn't know anything about it. I was crying so hard I said, "i have no desire to defend myself right now". Fortunately it turned out the person was studying in the library. (edit: to clarify the suicidal friend had suffered early childhood abuse and had many kind intentions, but clung to their negativity and caused far more pain than they ever could realize. I use this as an example for other people to think about. Many depressed people become blinded and don't realize that others are being really hurt by their actions./edit )

Because of those experiences i do feel as though i am not very proficient in dealing with suicidal people. I also wonder if depressed people realize how much pain they cause. Of course it is tragic and they need help, but there is also an element of responsibility. Depressive emotions should not be coddled and treated as precious. They shouldn't be the one card a person can pull to get everyone to give in to them. They shouldn't feel that their pain is special, above everyone else's. Why do people cling to their negativity like its their dearest friend? The quickest way i know to alleviate depression is to turn outward and do something useful. Maybe do something to help someone else feel better. That way you are reminded of the capacity you have to fix problems.

My favorite line: You are responsible for what you do regardless of how you feel.

Drug or alcohol use increases the risk of suicide. That is probably what he is indicating by that statement.

Interesting article: Postgraduate Medicine: Principles of suicide risk assessment

That is absolutely correct. Another friend of mine had a failed suicide attempt while high and drunk back in his teen years. He has had to live out his life with half his face blown off.

 

[ygolo]

That is very true. After my suicidal loved one came into my work and told me they had returned from downtown considering to jump off a particular building, I described to them in detail the effect that would have had on the people who love them and to promise me that if they ever considered that again that they would think through the emotional wreckage they would leave behind. That way if they did choose to follow through i would know they did it with the full knowledge of the harm they were causing. I don't know if that was the right thing, but i did that out of instinct. At least they never did go through with it.

I think these situations are incredibly hard. I believe your intentions were kind as were the intentions of the people who tried similar things with me. However, when people tried that with me, it made things worse. Because I felt worthless and like I was constantly causing emotional damage anyway. Why not just end it with a burst, so people could finally say good riddens, and they wouldn't need to deal with my emotional damage anynore.

There was another night i got a call in my dorm from one of the deans saying that a suicide note was found. I didn't own a car and begged a ride off the first person i saw in the parking lot to go downtown to that building. The first thing this person who was barely an acquaintance of ours said was "Why didn't you get them help?" She was yelling at me even though she didn't know anything about it. I was crying so hard I said, "i have no desire to defend myself right now".

That was awfully harsh and insensitive for the woman to say that to you.

Fortunately it turned out the person was studying in the library. (edit: to clarify the suicidal friend had suffered early childhood abuse and had many kind intentions, but clung to their negativity and caused far more pain than they ever could realize. I use this as an example for other people to think about. Many depressed people become blinded and don't realize that others are being really hurt by their actions./edit )

I think its not so much a "blindness" as much as a "distortion". I felt like the only "pain" I would be causing my family was "shame" or "dishonor", and I actually reveled in that since I abhor those concepts. But I thought the actual pain would be less. There would be far less hassle for them. They wouldn't have to keep trying to keep me in line, etc. They would be less obligated.

Because of those experiences i do feel as though i am not very proficient in dealing with suicidal people.

I don't know many people (even professionals) who are proficient in these situations.

I also wonder if depressed people realize how much pain they cause.

I think they have a distorted view of the pain they cause.

Of course it is tragic and they need help, but there is also an element of responsibility. Depressive emotions should not be coddled and treated as precious. They shouldn't be the one card a person can pull to get everyone to give in to them. They shouldn't feel that their pain is special, above everyone else's. Why do people cling to their negativity like its their dearest friend? The quickest way i know to alleviate depression is to turn outward and do something useful. Maybe do something to help someone else feel better. That way you are reminded of the capacity you have to fix problems.

I think maybe it is different for everyone. I am not sure how you pulled yourself out, but for me, the final thing was actually the opposite. I just decided to ignore many of my "obligations", because I realized that the expectations that go along with them were sources of a lot of my pain.

My favorite line: You are responsible for what you do regardless of how you feel.

This is a wonderful line when we say it to ourselves, but when we say it to others we are in a way abdicating our own responsibility. We ceate expectations, and expectations reduce joy in life. We can never get rid of expectations, but having expectations (esp. things outside our cotrol) will tend to set us up to be dissapointed, frustrated, or worse.

Just something to be aware of. I won't say "we should not have shoulds", because that is plain ridiculous.

 

[Park]

I think these situations are incredibly hard. I believe your intentions were kind as were the intentions of the people who tried similar things with me. However, when people tried that with me, it made things worse. Because I felt worthless and like I was constantly causing emotional damage anyway. Why not just end it with a burst, so people could finally say good riddens, and they wouldn't need to deal with my emotional damage anynore.

That's where your wrong, instead of dealing with the pain yourself, you would simply pass it on to others. Being dead, you wouldn't be hurting anymore but the people around you would.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

I think these situations are incredibly hard. I believe your intentions were kind as were the intentions of the people who tried similar things with me. However, when people tried that with me, it made things worse. Because I felt worthless and like I was constantly causing emotional damage anyway. Why not just end it with a burst, so people could finally say good riddens, and they wouldn't need to deal with my emotional damage anynore.

It is useful to hear an inside take on it. I still don't know what effect it had on my friend. I have no confidence it was either helpful or destructive of me. My person did not see they were causing emotional damage. They were frustrated because people didn't respond to them in the way they expected. This person acted childlike, easily hurt, visibly disappointed when people had to leave, clinging to others emotionally, etc. They couldn't see that their own tactics were making people run. They blamed 'god' not themselves for the problems. I mostly spent hours listening to them, but my attempts at analysis were typically rejected. I did a lot of listening, or throwing cheerup parties (didn't call them that) - which maybe helped, and everything else my mind could come up with. Nothing you do helps. I need a romantic relationship. If you want to help me, get me a date. And yet they did consistently look me up to talk to me - i was a relative. A couple of years earlier I lived out my own depression while living away from anyone who gave a crap about me. I wondered what a luxury it would be to have someone, anyone, willing to take time to listen. I didn't get that. Now i see it made me tougher.

In your post you sound like you did make it through much of it. What worked? What was the best way for others to approach you? If you could paint a hypothetical situation of a depressed person surrounded by people who cared, what is the action/inaction those people should take? What clarifies the distortion in the thinking? I think i currently know people who fit the mode of thinking you describe and am at quite a loss. Any info would be appreciated. (apologies if those are too many questions)

This is a wonderful line when we say it to ourselves, but when we say it to others we are in a way abdicating our own responsibility. We ceate expectations, and expectations reduce joy in life. We can never get rid of expectations, but having expectations (esp. things outside our cotrol) will tend to set us up to be dissapointed, frustrated, or worse.

Just something to be aware of. I won't say "we should not have shoulds", because that is plain ridiculous.

Thanks for that. You are absolutely right. After typing that quote i 'think' i remember it using the 'we' pronoun We are responsible for what we do regardless of how we feel. I saw it on someone's locker back at the U and always remembered it. Fwiw, i haven't ever personally directed that statement at anyone in my life. I agree that would be kinda ironic really because such an action would likely be motivated by anger. People almost never respond to being directed. They do much better in self-discovery, or watching real-life examples, so that they feel ownership, and not shame, like you describe.

 

[artie]

Was Depressed

I've been suicidally depressed and met many many others in the same boat during treatment. (I'm fine now). A few thoughts;

You mentioned listening for hours, in my experience people depressed enough to want to kill themselves can hardly think or talk. I've come to the conclusion the depressed catterboxes are usually pretending or exagerating possibly to get the social power you mention, there are plenty of other reasons someone might lie.(I'm not saying I know they are, but it's suspicious).

If someone is threatening suicude you really need professional intervention, like if your TV or leg breaks. In this country if someone is threatening suicide they can be forced to undergo treatment, which is how it should be.

Medication can probably do more than love, although I found knowing people valued me when I didn't value myself made a huge difference.

Finally, a "Basic Needs Checkist for Depression" from 'The Deprssion Learning Learning Path' Website helped a lot & I still use it as a guide for "the good life". Basically healthy people are satisfying these psychological needs and depressed ones arn't, I found it extraordinary, if deceptively simple. It sound a bit like your friend was only focusing on one of these needs; relationships.

1. The need to give and recieve attention
2. Taking care of the mind-body connection (physical health)
3. The need for meaning, purpose and goals
4. The need for a connection to something greater than ourselves
5. The need for stimulation and challenge
6. The need for intimacy and connection
7.The need for a sense of control

I believe focusing on these and medication got me out of depression.

Hope this is useful.

 

[ygolo]

That's where your wrong, instead of dealing with the pain yourself, you would simply pass it on to others. Being dead, you wouldn't be hurting anymore but the people around you would.

True. But I didn't see it that way at the time. I thought I would be ending everybody's "true" misery. Hence the "distortion".

In your post you sound like you did make it through much of it. What worked? What was the best way for others to approach you? If you could paint a hypothetical situation of a depressed person surrounded by people who cared, what is the action/inaction those people should take? What clarifies the distortion in the thinking? I think i currently know people who fit the mode of thinking you describe and am at quite a loss. Any info would be appreciated. (apologies if those are too many questions)

Ultimately, it came down to me relaxing, physically, mentally, and emotionally. I stopped trying to solve non-existent problems, and worrying about things that I didn't really have control over.

This may be disappointing to you, but there is almost nothing you, as a healthy person, can do, except lending a ear and being patient.

To me, it sounds like you are/were depressed also. If you share those experiences, that may help your person feel less alone in the struggle (that helps a lot actually). It is important, when you do this, not to make it a 'competition' of pain, nor a presumption that you know what your person is feeling. If it is simply an attempt to make them feel less alone, without any other tone built in, I think it helps.

It sounds like your particular person is sexually frustrated and depressed. Although, this time loneliness was not my issue. I know what it feels like to think that I am completely undesirable and incapable of getting a date, etc. The only advice I can give is to have your person introduced to many attractive people of the opposite sex (or whatever the appropriate orientation) in low pressure, informal situations.

Lastly, I would say don't make your person, your own personal "project". I know I would feel manipulated, or feel guilty for having someone take so much time.

Also, recruit help from your person's other friends and family. I know this is a harder situation than I would take on alone. Good Luck.