What is the hardest decision you've ever had to make?

[ajblaise]

I have had a few difficult decisions. One was to give up the idea of God. I'm agnostic not because it feels right, or because I'm angry at god or religious people. I don't think my reasoning is necessarily superior to people who ascribe to a religion, since I am merely a product of my experiences and can point to a place in time where I held irrational assumptions like anyone might. The implications of agnosticism can have negative emotional impact on me. The reason I hold that position is because it is the honest position. It is the natural conclusion for the actual doubts I have. It isn't comfortable, but it makes sense.

The important decisions in my life have not been based on how comfortable they feel to me. I have made personal decisions that were painful and frightening, but were reasonable and had positive outcomes that were clear if I looked past the current feelings about it. I am tough on myself and will dismiss anything I feel about something if it gets in the way of a decision based on honesty (i.e. the reality of the situation).

Yes, I found leaving God to be a big decision.

It was preceded by years of philosophical debate, but the moment of truth came when I had to decide between sleeping with my girlfriend and being a sacramental christian.

I knew I couldn't have both. I had to have one or the other. And fortunately I chose Rhonda.

So I swapped God for Rhonda.

But since then I have tried to have my cake and eat it too.

So today I see God through metaphorical eyes.

Metaphor is often misunderstood and demeaned, but so far it is only humans that can think metaphorically.

As you know metaphors are comparisons of relationships. And metaphor underlies all of language and mathematics.

So we might say, metaphor is the language of God.

And anyway, metaphor enables me to sleep with my girlfriend and receive the sacraments.

So the big decision turned out to be no decision at all - and now I have my cake and eat it too.

Whoopee!

Hmmmm. Sometimes it's good to be a soulless NT. I was able to leave God in my early teens, and it wasn't even a decision really.

 

[01011010]

Hardest decision I ever had to make was to let a few people I love go.

Factors: Recklessness with their lives- money, drugs, promiscuity.. (I sound like a total prude, I know).

Since our values clashed, I think that really kinda severed ties.. As much as I wanted to be 'there,' I don't think be 'there' really helped, until maybe one day, they will wake up, realize. Or maybe they just didn't care? I think that sometimes, things happen for a reason. I believe that group influence is really strong. Being the oddball I guess, my hopes were to help rub off in a positive way? It didn't. I had to wake up myself. I still wish them the best of luck.

They won't change unless they truly want to. You're mature for recognizing that.

 

[Mole]

Leaving my brothers behind when I ran away from home at 14 years old and not returning for several years after. I just couldn't take the abuse any more. Either my mother or I was going to die.

The guilt I felt for years following that destroyed me in an entirely other way. I thought I'd selfishly left them to their fate, but in hindsight I had more power to protect them from afar. I threatened her with CPS and lawyers with my father's help if the bullshit didn't stop and we both followed through true to our word. It must've scared the effing daylights out of her. (CPS had taken her and her siblings from her abusive father when she was a teenager too. History and fate had come full circle.) She never hit them again. If she had, I might've killed her.

When my INTP father had to make a list of the abuse my brothers and I had experienced, it was one of the few times in my life I ever saw him cry. Then it was his turn for guilt.

What a sad circle. It stops with me.

It is a sad circle. But how wonderful you are now creating a virtuous circle.

And what an important part of the world you are now, as you can see from this video -

YouTube - Parenting For A Peaceful World

 

[Mole]

Hmmmm. Sometimes it's good to be a soulless NT. I was able to leave God in my early teens, and it wasn't even a decision really.

When I discovered all the gods in the world and in history, I knew they couldn't be taken literally.

On the other hand I also knew that there had never been a civilization not based on a religion.

And as I feel I belong to my civilization, I had an interesting problem to solve.

And as civilzation is now being attacked by barbarity, it is important to gather my feet under me to meet the attack.

So I guess I am lucky, as I am not only comfortable in my own skin, but also comfortable in my civilization.

 

[juggernaut]

EDIT:

actually now that i think about it there is no worse lol it might have been harder for you then for me and i would never know because i am not you.

In fairness, I guess I could say the same. I have no idea of what your life is like so it's entirely possible that whatever it was was actually worse for you. I guess my decision, the decision itself, wasn't all that hard insofar as the repercussions of making a different choice were very obvious. It was the aftermath that really made it hard to stand my ground. It was such a drawn out process with a weird kind of ripple effect that I couldn't have anticipated. I still wonder how much damage I may have done, or be doing, five years later.

 

[Totenkindly]

Hmmmm. Sometimes it's good to be a soulless NT. I was able to leave God in my early teens, and it wasn't even a decision really.

It's okay, dear -- He never left you.

(Bwa ha ha haaaa.... sorry, couldn't resist. )

... I guess my decision, the decision itself, wasn't all that hard insofar as the repercussions of making a different choice were very obvious. It was the aftermath that really made it hard to stand my ground. It was such a drawn out process with a weird kind of ripple effect that I couldn't have anticipated. I still wonder how much damage I may have done, or be doing, five years later.

Yup, this is the ambiguity that makes it difficult to make these decisions in the first place.

Especially if you're pitting potential future long-term benefit against current or probable pain/damage.

 

[ajblaise]

It's okay, dear -- He never left you.

(Bwa ha ha haaaa.... sorry, couldn't resist. )

So that's who has been stalking me! I just thought he was an old homeless guy quoting Leviticus.

 

[Winds of Thor]

Yes, I found leaving God to be a big decision.

It was preceded by years of philosophical debate, but the moment of truth came when I had to decide between sleeping with my girlfriend and being a sacramental christian.

I knew I couldn't have both. I had to have one or the other. And fortunately I chose Rhonda.

So I swapped God for Rhonda.

But since then I have tried to have my cake and eat it too.

So today I see God through metaphorical eyes.

Metaphor is often misunderstood and demeaned, but so far it is only humans that can think metaphorically.

As you know metaphors are comparisons of relationships. And metaphor underlies all of language and mathematics.

So we might say, metaphor is the language of God.

And anyway, metaphor enables me to sleep with my girlfriend and receive the sacraments.

So the big decision turned out to be no decision at all - and now I have my cake and eat it too.

Whoopee!

Next time you're outside, look at everything. Someone made all this stuff. And if it's not a plant or water, the raw materials from the stuff we make were made by somebody.

Just the same as a man makes a ship. The ship sinks. The smaller fish make it their home. The same stands to reason from us up the other direction.

 

[Mole]

Next time you're outside, look at everything. Someone made all this stuff. And if it's not a plant or water, the raw materials from the stuff we make were made by somebody.

Just the same as a man makes a ship. The ship sinks. The smaller fish make it their home. The same stands to reason from us up the other direction.

Yes, just as a watch has a watch maker, the world has a world maker.

And as you can see, this is a beautiful metaphor.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

Hmmmm. Sometimes it's good to be a soulless NT. I was able to leave God in my early teens, and it wasn't even a decision really.

Based on seeing the number of NT/ST religious thinkers and the number of soulful, passionate atheists, my inclination is to suspect it has more to do with environment, culture, and indoctrinization than personality type. Personality can certainly play a role, but people who can move away from religion as a child or teen typically have a much different introduction to religion than those who wait until adulthood or never leave. For example, when I was a teen I was at a religious boarding school where I was influenced 24/7 and was required to live up to many rules regulating both social and personal values and there were punishments if you did not do this. These institutions were designed specifically to keep the young people in the church. It is as much a measure of their external introduction to religion as it is a measure of internal perspective. Most people do not realize this. It has been rare to encounter people who are willing to hold a position based solely on what makes sense as opposed to what makes them feel stronger or superior to others. People, however rational, who make fun of religious people have a personal feeling of superiority invested in their position of being non-religious. Their position makes sense, but also satisfies the personal need to feel strong and secure. It seems as though this drives many conclusions even when people are not aware of it. When a person doesn't have a feeling of superiority associated with their belief, it isn't much fun to look down on others since they are a reminder of various possibilities for oneself.

 

[Totenkindly]

So that's who has been stalking me! I just thought he was an old homeless guy quoting Leviticus.

Yeah, he's sneaky that way. (He calls me on the phone during election season and tries to get me to vote Republican.... but I know it's just a ploy for attention.)

 

[Totenkindly]

Based on seeing the number of NT/ST religious thinkers and the number of soulful, passionate atheists, my inclination is to suspect it has more to do with environment, culture, and indoctrinization than personality type. Personality can certainly play a role, but people who can move away from religion as a child or teen typically have a much different introduction to religion than those who wait until adulthood or never leave. For example, when I was a teen I was at a religious boarding school where I was influenced 24/7 and was required to live up to many rules regulating both social and personal values and there were punishments if you did not do this. These institutions were designed specifically to keep the young people in the church. It is as much a measure of their external introduction to religion as it is a measure of internal perspective. Most people do not realize this. It has been rare to encounter people who are willing to hold a position based solely on what makes sense as opposed to what makes them feel stronger or superior to others.

Or that has helped them make sense of life. With my family, they don't understand that OTHER viewpoints/beliefs would have been just as helpful in helping them keep their lives together... they attribute everything good in life itself (theirs and other peoples' lives) to the influence of their own particular object of worship, rather than understanding that those are merely details that triggered a more universal process of psycho/spiritual growth that can encompass different faith systems.

("It changed my life! It should change yours too... and nothing else will... and if it doesn't work, you weren't really trying!")

I'll say that I became "saved" when I was five. I did that because something about the mystical and spiritual appealed to my sensibilities. And my life has been a quest to "see beyond," ever since, although for a long time I attributed it to a particular faith system. But really, I realized I'm far more of an experiential thinker and believer, rather than one who derives truth from an external authority; things have to make SENSE to me. I'm fine with ambiguity, but what I do perceive has to hook together coherently with the data points.

And now, to try to stay on thread topic here, it's hard to follow one's inclinations when one's entire subculture is dead set against it. I was never confused when I was by myself, it was only when I had to be around them that I suffered... because I knew exactly what being myself and believing my own beliefs would cost me, and how it would shake up other people's worlds too.

 

[ajblaise]

Based on seeing the number of NT/ST religious thinkers and the number of soulful, passionate atheists, my inclination is to suspect it has more to do with environment, culture, and indoctrinization than personality type. Personality can certainly play a role, but people who can move away from religion as a child or teen typically have a much different introduction to religion than those who wait until adulthood or never leave. For example, when I was a teen I was at a religious boarding school where I was influenced 24/7 and was required to live up to many rules regulating both social and personal values and there were punishments if you did not do this. These institutions were designed specifically to keep the young people in the church. It is as much a measure of their external introduction to religion as it is a measure of internal perspective. Most people do not realize this. It has been rare to encounter people who are willing to hold a position based solely on what makes sense as opposed to what makes them feel stronger or superior to others. People, however rational, who make fun of religious people have a personal feeling of superiority invested in their position of being non-religious. Their position makes sense, but also satisfies the personal need to feel strong and secure. It seems as though this drives many conclusions even when people are not aware of it. When a person doesn't have a feeling of superiority associated with their belief, it isn't much fun to look down on others since they are a reminder of various possibilities for oneself.

Yeah under different environmental factors, I can't be sure that I would have strayed from religious thought as early as I did. My family, and seemingly, everyone around me was Catholic only in name. I got zero reinforcement at home and little at Church when we did end up going. So there was just a vague and weak societal message of belief being offered to me, like through the media.

I don't think I have a feeling of superiority or that I'm stronger than believers. In my mind I separate the people from the positions and opinions they hold, unless they are particularly extreme, which can't help but color my view of them. I can make fun of someone's positions and opinions, and that could very well signify that I think my opinions are superior or better reasoned, but it doesn't mean I think of them as lesser people.

 

[anii]

Getting separated.