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Languages and psychology

wolfy

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I am interested in how language effects our picture of the world and thinking process and what people think about the idea that some languges are better in saying certain things.

I'm a native English speaker and am fluent in Japanese.

It's hard to say whether the cultures dominant psychology affects the language or vice versa.

An expert in Japanese was once talking about how the Japanese language is thought to be vague.
He commented that it is not the language itself which is vague because Japanese can be used in the most strict of settings in science. It is the people and the general culture which causes people to use the language in a vague way.

In some ways Japanese is more alive than English. Words change, new words become popular and fade away.
I would say the language is very social with the community agreeing on what is the in word. While another part remains stable and traditional.

Lots of phrases are built into the language to express the interdependence between people.
Using Japanese has changed my psychology in that way. I am more aware of interdependence between people.

About what Nolla said. I'm the same way when I translate.
I think it's like driving a car. When you first learn you're very conscious of the mechanics of driving and you could explain it pretty well.
But then you become better and you are no longer thinking about the way to drive only where to go in the car so you have a hard time explaining it.

How does it go?

1 Unconscious Incompetence
2 Conscious Incompetence
3 Conscious Competence
4 Unconscious Competence
 

Cimarron

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Anyone else have new thoughts on this? Interested in input.
 

entropie

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I have had my fair share of language problems. The german language is a very emotive language, though it can sound overly very depressing at times. The english language is a very unprecise language, meaning you can say different things with one sentence, but the spoken word and the attitude of the american people in general came off as being very blind or say arrogant to the finer things in life to me (in the beginning when I joined the forum).

Nowadays I tend to not care about it, I accepted the fact that I suck at english :). I like the british though, they got style :D
 

Little Linguist

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Of all the languages I've ever studied, I love German the most....

Which philosopher was it who said:

"Like everything metaphysical the harmony between thought and reality is to be found in the grammar of the language."

"You learned the concept 'pain' when you learned language."

I guess that's true of every sensation, every feeling, every perception. Quite awesome, really, in the true sense of the word....
:blush:
 

Mole

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Shakespearean

English is not a language but a person.

A person we take entirely for granted as he fills our mouth with words every day.

No one really understands him. It's almost as though we can only limn him at dusk.

He was miraculously a humanist.

And so we are all humanists - we have even built a secular society in his honour.

English walks on two legs while the others slither along the floor.

Arabic, for instance, is the language of a religion. And how it hates the language of a person.

If only it could destroy that person for he lives in each one us every time we speak.

And so they wish to destroy every last one of us - so that not one infidel remains.

Are they not afraid we will stamp our feet?

No, they have embarked on the path of suicide, and wish to provoke us to raise our foot and bring it down again, again and again.

But speaking the language of a person, we see ourselves as persons too.

But we are tempted to reify ourselves with MBTI.

Or we are tempted to martyr ourselves in Arabic.

But we remain, thank God, Shakespearean.
 

Mole

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:shock:

*shakes head and mutters* INFPs...

This is a perfect example of using MBTI to reify me.

Just as the Japanese reified Chinese and POWs by calling them, "logs", before experimenting on them.

And just as the Germans reified the Jews before murdering them wholesale.

And just as the Communists reified the Bourgeoise and Capitalists before liquidating them.

And just as the Islamists reify Jews and Infidels today before murdering them.

It is difficult to do away with a live and breathing person. That is why it is important to turn them into a thing - to reify them - first.
 

BlackCat

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I am totally going to get exterminated, shit. I'm also an INFP! *dodges bombs*
 

Little Linguist

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This is a perfect example of using MBTI to reify me.

Just as the Japanese reified Chinese and POWs by calling them, "logs", before experimenting on them.

And just as the Germans reified the Jews before murdering them wholesale.

And just as the Communists reified the Bourgeoise and Capitalists before liquidating them.

And just as the Islamists reify Jews and Infidels today before murdering them.

It is difficult to do away with a live and breathing person. That is why it is important to turn them into a thing - to reify them - first.

I am totally going to get exterminated, shit. I'm also an INFP! *dodges bombs*

LOL You guys are so silly! That's why I like INFPs - they can make me laugh no matter what mood I'm in, right PurpleChickens??? :D
 

Mole

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I am totally going to get exterminated...

Of course not. MBTI is merely a left over from the extermination camps.

Today it is merely used by those who have failed to individuate, by those who are dissociated, and by those who lack integrity.

It is used by those who have failed to realise themselves as persons and still see themselves partly as things.

And unfortunately they still see us partly as things as well.

But fortunately MBTI is infallible - it is an infallible sign of bad taste.
 

Tiltyred

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*cue the Butt movie*
 

professor goodstain

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For sometime I am thinking about opening this thread.
I don't want this to be a rant it is just that it could sound like it to some people. I would not be suprised that only people who know more languages will post here, but I am also interested in opinions of people who speak only English.



I am interested in how language effects our picture of the world and thinking process and what people think about the idea that some languges are better in saying certain things.



Here I am writting on English but my thinking process is quite different then the process of most people on this forum since many are from English speaking countries. I what I am interested in is how much difference there is and how nuch we are not aware of it.


My native language is Croatian which is quite different from English in many aspects. The real translation is actually impossible so all the time I am actually gambling when I type posts since order of words must change.
Many words have more meanings in both languages so I am not always sure that I am hiting the point. People understand it but it looks to me that they are not getting it 100% (and this is not their fault).
Also I think that when I post in English I am actually hidding large piece of me and I am not showing myself for what I really am.


Here are some examlpes of the differences.

On English ocean is rated as it, but on Croatian it is rated as he.
On English apple is rated as it, but on Croatian it is rated as she.

And there are countless examples of this. This works for almost all nouns.


I have said that some languages are better for saying something. Here is what I mean by this.

On this forum many times it happened that people are not aware of other peoples gender. Like in the case of Nolla.

But in Croatian this can't happen since words are modified for genders so you are always aware of the gender of a person about who you are hearing about. (if the person is posting/saying correct information)


More theoretical example of this would be the word "friend" since in Croatian there are different words one for a female friend and one for a male friend.
Same is with word "uncle" since there are two words for it one for a fathers side of a family one for mothers side of a family.


Even the alphabet is not the same. In Croatian there is no X,Y,W or Q but there are other letters, like Č,Ć,Š,Đ,Ž . There are even letters made of two symbols like Lj, Nj or Dž .


The main thing about Croatian is that words are not so "static" as in Englsh.
English is more like playing with pieces of a puzzle while in Croatian words morph on many different ways. This is the main reason why translation is such a gamble. In a way this is only a tip of the iceberg but it enough that people understand actual topic.


For people who don't know Croatian is similar to Russian.


So my question for all people whose native language is English:
Do you sometime notice that English is somewhat too simple to state your thoughts in a right way without saying large number of words,
or do you not know for anything else and use what you have/know?
(if you don't know any other language)

What would point in a direction that our thinking process is quite different.
If you think that there is a difference in this how would you deffine it?

On the other hand English is much easier to learn then Croatian.


This was when you compare English and Croatian in short and it would be interesting to compare other languages as well.

English is in the indoeuropean class. Along with spanish, french, german, ect. They all overlap at least 75%. Only the words are diffrent. The overlap is in syntax (word order) and morphology. English in specific tends to have 10,000 diffrent ways to express the same idea or label only to make it seem more politicaly correct. In the ancient languages it is expressed only a couple ways because it evolved enough to articulate it almost flawlessly. While the indoeuropean ones are still young and half-ass. The ancient languages evolved to become more natural in that they are far more uninhibited. The order of information (syntax) is far diffrent like you said, and that could very well be the key to articulating more accurate and natural.
 

Little Linguist

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Of course not. MBTI is merely a left over from the extermination camps.

Today it is merely used by those who have failed to individuate, by those who are dissociated, and by those who lack integrity.

It is used by those who have failed to realise themselves as persons and still see themselves partly as things.

And unfortunately they still see us partly as things as well.

But fortunately MBTI is infallible - it is an infallible sign of bad taste.

If that's true, then why are *you* here?
 

Mole

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English in specific tends to have 10,000 diffrent ways to express the same idea or label only to make it seem more politicaly correct. In the ancient languages it is expressed only a couple ways because it evolved enough to articulate it almost flawlessly. While the indoeuropean ones are still young and half-ass.

English is the queen of languages because it is so rich and expressive.

For instance English contains many more words than even its closest rival.

And as you say, English has many, many ways of expressing the same idea or feeling.

English is perfectly designed for poetry - for the expression of the new and vibrant.

And as if the crown of poetry were not enough, English is the language of science.

And as if the crowns of poetry and science were not enough, English is now the language of business as well.

And even if you dismiss poetry, science and business, it is impossible to conduct diplomacy without English.

Glorious, glorious English - the language of Shakespeare.
 

Mole

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If that's true, then why are *you* here?

It was President Kennedy who courageously said, "Ich bin ein Berliner", ("I am a Berliner").

And in exactly the same spirit, I say, "I am a Jew".

No wonder you want to get rid of me.

And exactly the same technique is used - first, reification.
 

Little Linguist

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Well whatever you do, please send someone to the State Department who knows something about languages and psychology...and culture...and if possible, a little taste....sheesh! :shock: :huh: :doh:
 
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