Leadership

[substitute]

If someone asks you to lead and you obey... who's the real leader?

No... that doesn't follow logically. If I'm working under a boss, and that boss asks me to lead the other employees in a project, giving me autonomy and total discretion, then I'm the 'real' leader of the people I'm leading, even whilst I'm 'obeying' my boss. Moreover, I'm only doing any of it so I can get my paycheque, so essentially I'm serving my own ends.

 

[Simplexity]

Hahah I was waiting for the Ti response. That would be a good way to test types for your boss. Have someone present a statement that seems semi-plausible and logical and see how much effort he takes into giving clear descriptions of why it isn't so. I personally would love to have a leader like that as well as workers like that. Unfortunately that isn't so and it's actually why I hate to resort to Te style tactics to fill in some of those blanks for people, and also maintain and control them.

 

[entropie]

The intresting thing is, it is more a N response. Because it sees the relation and the cause the serving is done for.

Strictly seen from an S point, you are not your own boss. You are doing the bidding of another one.

 

[Nighthawk]

I used to strive for leadership positions when I was younger and following the way of the SJ/SP. It was hammered into me at a young age, and vigourously reinforced at the military school I attended. I spent my late teens and all my 20's in various leadership positions in the military ... commanding from 4 to 160 men in various combat units. (Yes, they were all male units). I exercised leadership because I was in the position to do so and it was expected of me. I did fairly well at it, but hated dealing with all the messy people problems. Plus, I delegated so much of the work, that I never felt I was accomplishing anything concrete myself.

I left the military at age 30 and chose a completely different route ... software engineering. Now I was more content to apply constructive solutions and actually create things with my mind. I found myself veering away from leadership roles because I found them to be distasteful. I also veered away from being a follower too however, which I also found to be distasteful. As stated in an INTP profile I read somewhere ... as INTPs grow older, they have less and less desire to direct the activities of others. I've found this to be very true for me. Dealing with messy people problems just detracts from my desire to create things.

People still try to push me into leaderhip positions, especially my SJ wife or managers who see the leadership experience on my resume. I've resisted it for the most part, especially when there is no increase in pay involved or only a slight increase. I'm not hung up on titles at all and care very little for a director or manager title. I still have misgivings about all the dynamics however, as I was trained early on to be a leader and go for the positions. Part of me still feels as though I should strive for it, despite the fact that it is contrary to my personality. Particularly in my field, which is made for younger people, and in which the older ones often gravitate towards management. I guess time will tell what eventually transpires.

 

[Simplexity]

I think you actually hit on a very good point entropie. In terms of delegation, maintenance and controlling it is important to sort of step outside your natural way of doing things and transform your message to the personalities you are leading.

I think from my perspective I find it difficult to use Te to parse not only the information I intend to communicate, but also to provide some control measures. I think I respect my own Ne too much to the point where I fail to see the need to reign it in when leading others. I think I'm much more comfortable with a more consultant orientation.

I think one of the biggest things I'm interested is in how some of the different types like to receive communication, controlling processes and measures, Information and just generally some of the things they like and appreciate while being led. I think it is a little easier to state your strengths and what you would prefer from the leadership side but much harder to get a grasp of what is necessary and beneficial from the subordinate side. It is even more difficult to transform your style to accommodate some of the people you are leading.

 

[entropie]

I think you actually hit on a very good point entropie. In terms of delegation, maintenance and controlling it is important to sort of step outside your natural way of doing things and transform your message to the personalities you are leading.

I think from my perspective I find it difficult to use Te to parse not only the information I intend to communicate, but also to provide some control measures. I think I respect my own Ne too much to the point where I fail to see the need to reign it in when leading others. I think I'm much more comfortable with a more consultant orientation.

I think one of the biggest things I'm interested is in how some of the different types like to receive communication, controlling processes and measures, Information and just generally some of the things they like and appreciate while being led. I think it is a little easier to state your strengths and what you would prefer from the leadership side but much harder to get a grasp of what is necessary and beneficial from the subordinate side. It is even more difficult to transform your style to accommodate some of the people you are leading.

That's true. The most bitter experience I've made is to constantly think, if everyone is feeling alright with your decisions and if you do not treat someone unfair. So this would be more a delegation issue.

It is hard to keep a good balance between being a friend on the one hand and a strong leader on the other side.

I think this would make me someone, whose experience or visions can be followed, through inspiring people. But I could never try to rule over people or mildly said, lead them with a leading hand in times of need.

I guess in military, I would have been a good sniper. Working alone with a vision to implement

 

[Negative_]

Not particularly. Sometimes I'll take charge if nobody else will and I feel competent in that situation, but for the most part I'd rather influence the decisions rather than actually make them and have all that responsibility.

Behind the Scenes style.

 

[Jack Flak]

All my friends are P, so if there's a group thing going down, I tend to be the organizer. It feels funny.

 

[Valiant]

I enjoy leadership, naturally. But I agree with Metamorphosis, only if i'm the best suited for the job. Which pretty much is whenever something needs to be done quickly. I know for a fact that people dislike when I get brutally honest and effective, so I keep those parts reigned in tightly most of the time and operate more with suggestions and actually trying to listen to other people. Most of the time people just can't say anything intelligent and original... But I still nod and look like I care, then I completely ignore their input and find some way of saying that their idea sucks without hurting their precious feelings.

The context in my case is usually group studies, with five other people. Two of them are quitters. They are always gone, so I can hardly type them; and when they're actually attending seminars and our study sessions, they are so terribly stupid and introverted in combination that I can't get a read on their types. I get ISxx from one and INxx from the other.

Me, ENTJ.
ENFP man, 25. Christian guy. Computer nerd. Cool to have discussions with regarding religion.
INTP girl/woman something. 20. From Colombia. Pretty cool. Adores me for some reason. Makes good points every now and then, when she decides to share
ENTP guy, 32. We generally agree upon everything. We play chess during lectures on our laptops. Has original ideas, and combined with my original thoughts, it's fucking great. Best symbiosis EVARR.
INxx - stupid. The lights are on but no-one's home.
ISxx - retarded conservative idiot. Good thing she's never there.

What's great about this group is that the command structure is sublime, but it is pretty clear. There's no bullshit and everyone contributes to our work. I'm usually pulling about 40% of the load, though. But I wouldn't have it any other way; I write pretty good in swedish, and I have a lot to say regarding pedagogy, law and leadership.

 

[entropie]

All my friends are P, so if there's a group thing going down, I tend to be the organizer. It feels funny.

You really have to invite me one day to one of your group parties, I bet they are nasty and wet

 

[6sticks]

No... that doesn't follow logically. If I'm working under a boss, and that boss asks me to lead the other employees in a project, giving me autonomy and total discretion, then I'm the 'real' leader of the people I'm leading, even whilst I'm 'obeying' my boss.

Do you think having followers is all that makes one a leader?

Your position only has power because of your boss. Leaders seize power. Managers are appointed. And can be replaced.

Moreover, I'm only doing any of it so I can get my paycheque, so essentially I'm serving my own ends.

So does everyone else.

 

[entropie]

Look 6sticks, "mücke" is the best leader

(careful sound is pretty bad)

[YOUTUBE="8NgEInixPK8"][/YOUTUBE]

 

[6sticks]

Look 6sticks, "mücke" is the best leader

Ja, mein sohn. Bleiben Sie jetzt ab dem MBTIZentrale. Oder ich werde Sie versohlen.

 

[entropie]

 

[INTJMom]

When I was young, I used to think I was a great leader. I was very bold and if no one would follow, I went anyway.
But since I've learned that true leadership is garnering support from people, I have not seen myself as a good leader.
I'm not afraid of leadership though.
I enjoy being in charge when I know what to do.

 

[Fiver]

I don't covet it, but I love it.

I love seeing the big picture, the patterns of how everyone and everything will work together and showing other people how they can overcome obstacles. Some ENTPs tinker with gadgets and machines, I see an organization or team as a gadget.

I love to set the vision and let everyone else figure out how to get there. It tends to be less repetitive and detail oriented than followship.

Parts of being a leader stink, but I love the parts I love so much, I don't care.

 

[bluebell]

Belated responses (I was offline for a few days):

That always feels like to me I'm shortchanging people and not allowing them the freedom to go about it how they wish. I still can't grasp the need that some people need all those boundaries and details for them to feel comfortable, on top of that constant supervision to see if their progressing along nicely. It's like doing exactly what I personally hate.

Yeah, exactly. I can make myself do that but it just feels so wrong to be doing it. I'd much rather be hands-off and give general direction, and let them work out the details.

I'm in pretty much this exact position (sorry, Bluebell, it sucks ). I've (rather guiltily) assigned a relatively simple task to someone to keep them busy, knowing that I'll probably have to go through and fix it, but that while they're working on it I'll have some (relatively) uninterrupted time to try to get some of the larger part done. I'm really not proud of that... the person in question tries hard, cares, and wants to help/learn (and I DO honestly try to help/teach - I'm always available for questions, etc.) - but it's literally an "I could do this in an hour - and you've spent three days on it and aren't even close" sort of situation (and it's not the first time I've encountered that with this person).

That sucks that you're in a similar position to me, but it does help to know I'm not the only one. I suspect I could probably improve how I supervise this person (I'm very new to it - only for the past few months) but then again, we are both nominally at the same level and get paid the same.

I think part of my frustration is this person doesn't seem to know how to manage her weaknesses (and everyone has weaknesses, myself very much included). For example, it's pretty clear she's not good at remembering things - but I don't get why she doesn't stick up lists of acronyms or flow charts of organisations etc to get around that problem, which is a pretty common way of dealing with that.

I think you actually hit on a very good point entropie. In terms of delegation, maintenance and controlling it is important to sort of step outside your natural way of doing things and transform your message to the personalities you are leading.

That's what I'm struggling with. My natural inclination is to assume everyone thinks the same way as I do. I have to work conciously not to do that.

I think from my perspective I find it difficult to use Te to parse not only the information I intend to communicate, but also to provide some control measures. I think I respect my own Ne too much to the point where I fail to see the need to reign it in when leading others. I think I'm much more comfortable with a more consultant orientation.

I think one of the biggest things I'm interested is in how some of the different types like to receive communication, controlling processes and measures, Information and just generally some of the things they like and appreciate while being led. I think it is a little easier to state your strengths and what you would prefer from the leadership side but much harder to get a grasp of what is necessary and beneficial from the subordinate side. It is even more difficult to transform your style to accommodate some of the people you are leading.

I like these points. *ponders*

 

[FDG]

I h8 leadership. Yes, sometimes if I am the most skilled at doing a task and a group of people has to do it, I will unwillingly take the equivalent of a leadership position. However, most of the time, it's just an hassle that erodes my saint free time. There's an exception: if I am doing something I really like, then I have no problem guiding a group of people during the same activity (for example, often I assume a "leadership position" when I'm hiking with a group of friends, but that's simply because I hike more than all of them so I know more paths etc etc)

I mean, if somebody really wants it, I can give him some "advice". That seems generally to be best than leadership, because it entails no further responsibility (and I h8 to be responsible for people because it erodes my saint free time).

 

[EffEmDoubleyou]

I don't covet it, but I love it.

My feelings exactly. I have served as a leader with much success, and I enjoy it, but I don't wish for it unless I am the most qualified. I do enjoy being the impetus for success more than I enjoy being the one who eventually secures it.

 

[Mercurial]

I'm getting more proactive with age and am less likely to wait for the beginning of a screwup before taking over. I sat back during the last project after having been the lead for the last three... It was a constant state of near-disaster where most input from anyone was ignored by the lead while he went off on tangents... I keep two-way communication flowing and make sure work gets redistributed when someone gets in over their head. People aren't tools to be ridden to destruction.