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  1. #1
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Default Disgust and Narcissism

    Why do we find narcissism so disgusting, when the narcissistic stage is a normal stage of development for babies and children?

    Babies are born without control and focused on getting their needs met, and barely distinguish themselves from their mother.

    As babies grow they are able to distinguish themselves and to distinguish others, and so become less narcissistic.

    The process of becoming less narcissistic is slow through childhood and adolescence into independence. And it can easily be subverted, and it is by a society that wants to keep us dependent and so more profitable.

    So we find narcissism disgusting in adults because it is a failure to grow into an independent adult. We find childlike adults to be disgusting.
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  2. #2
    To the waters of the wild FemMecha's Avatar
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    The 'childish' aspects of personality place the person in role of taker instead of giver just as the child takes more than they give to the parent. The earlier the development is arrested, the more they need to take. I think that is why it is resented because resources are limited and so the adult who insists on being stuck at an earlier stage will by nature take more than their share of whatever resources. They will also feel absolutely entitled to more than their share and will break down into destructive narcissistic rage when denied it. Just look at the people knocking over stands to sell masks for the pandemic. Look at a thousand temper tantrums from adults in recent months. When there are needs in others, these are dismissed in favor of the needs of self. When too many have this mindset, there are no longer any caretakers, no more emotionally responsible people, no more givers, and society will collapse.
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  3. #3
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FemMecha View Post
    The 'childish' aspects of personality place the person in role of taker instead of giver just as the child takes more than they give to the parent. The earlier the development is arrested, the more they need to take. I think that is why it is resented because resources are limited and so the adult who insists on being stuck at an earlier stage will by nature take more than their share of whatever resources. They will also feel absolutely entitled to more than their share and will break down into destructive narcissistic rage when denied it. Just look at the people knocking over stands to sell masks for the pandemic. Look at a thousand temper tantrums from adults in recent months. When there are needs in others, these are dismissed in favor of the needs of self. When too many have this mindset, there are no longer any caretakers, no more emotionally responsible people, no more givers, and society will collapse.
    Well, FemMecha, we don't have to look far for a narcissistic temper tantrum, indeed our Commander in Chief, on losing the election, had such a temper tantrum he trashed democracy. Short of war we don't get a bigger temper tantrum than that.

    And interestingly, half of the country feels disgust, and the other half revels in the emotional release of the tantrum.
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Why do we find narcissism so disgusting, when the narcissistic stage is a normal stage of development for babies and children?

    Babies are born without control and focused on getting their needs met, and barely distinguish themselves from their mother.

    As babies grow they are able to distinguish themselves and to distinguish others, and so become less narcissistic.

    The process of becoming less narcissistic is slow through childhood and adolescence into independence. And it can easily be subverted, and it is by a society that wants to keep us dependent and so more profitable.

    So we find narcissism disgusting in adults because it is a failure to grow into an independent adult. We find childlike adults to be disgusting.
    "Your" definition of and ideas about narcissism perfectly echoes Britannica's interpretation of Freud who in turn was a huge admirer of Jung.

    v
    v
    v

    Britannica

    "According to Sigmund Freud, narcissism is a normal stage in child development, but it is considered a disorder when it occurs after puberty."

    Carl Jung - Wikipedia:

    "Jung worked as a research scientist at the famous Burghölzli hospital, under Eugen Bleuler. During this time, he came to the attention of Sigmund Freud, the founder of psychoanalysis. The two men conducted a lengthy correspondence and collaborated, for a while, on a joint vision of human psychology.

    Freud saw the younger Jung as the heir he had been seeking to take forward his "new science" of psychoanalysis and to this end secured his appointment as President of his newly founded International Psychoanalytical Association."
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  5. #5
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomb1 View Post
    "Your" definition of and ideas about narcissism perfectly echoes Britannica's interpretation of Freud who in turn was a huge admirer of Jung.

    v
    v
    v

    Britannica

    "According to Sigmund Freud, narcissism is a normal stage in child development, but it is considered a disorder when it occurs after puberty."

    Carl Jung - Wikipedia:

    "Jung worked as a research scientist at the famous Burghölzli hospital, under Eugen Bleuler. During this time, he came to the attention of Sigmund Freud, the founder of psychoanalysis. The two men conducted a lengthy correspondence and collaborated, for a while, on a joint vision of human psychology.

    Freud saw the younger Jung as the heir he had been seeking to take forward his "new science" of psychoanalysis and to this end secured his appointment as President of his newly founded International Psychoanalytical Association."
    What a joke! Part of the Psychoanalytic Course done by Jung had Freud as his analyst. Freud began his analysis of Jung with Jung's father fixation on Freud, Jung rejected the analysis of his father fixation on Freud and transferred it to the Fuhrer.

    Jung hated Freud with a fury, and with his new father fixation, drove Freud from his home and from his country, and Jung put Freud on a death list.

  6. #6
    phallus impudicus Peter Deadpan's Avatar
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    This place is fucking weird. This whole place is a personality disorder.
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  7. #7
    Senior Member Earl Grey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Why do we find narcissism so disgusting, when the narcissistic stage is a normal stage of development for babies and children?

    Babies are born without control and focused on getting their needs met, and barely distinguish themselves from their mother.

    As babies grow they are able to distinguish themselves and to distinguish others, and so become less narcissistic.

    The process of becoming less narcissistic is slow through childhood and adolescence into independence. And it can easily be subverted, and it is by a society that wants to keep us dependent and so more profitable.

    So we find narcissism disgusting in adults because it is a failure to grow into an independent adult. We find childlike adults to be disgusting.
    You can drown in a pool of dolls in a pastel coloured room while singing Disney all you want (which by the way, is childlike, but not narcissistic), but if you whine and scream because the store isn't open when you want it to be, it's disgusting. It's a disorder because (able bodied) adults know and can do better. If an infant is screaming and crying in hunger for food I'd rush to feed it but if a grownass adult screams and throws a tantrum because they do not want to lift their ass from the couch to get some coffee for themselves and demanding you serve them then refuses to apologise I'd tell them to go deck themselves.

    Seriously, narcissism is a problem. The infant / toddler / child / even teenager, and the adult, are in entirely different situations. Don't delude these more intelligent, able-bodied adults who know better into thinking they have a pass because it is 'normal' by some technical and twisted stretch of logic.

    Imagine setting the same standards on yourself as you would a baby. Dear lord. Dear heavens. Just no.

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  8. #8
    To the waters of the wild FemMecha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Earl Grey View Post
    You can drown in a pool of dolls in a pastel coloured room while singing Disney all you want (which by the way, is childlike, but not narcissistic), but if you whine and scream because the store isn't open when you want it to be, it's disgusting. It's a disorder because (able bodied) adults know and can do better. If an infant is screaming and crying in hunger for food I'd rush to feed it but if a grownass adult screams and throws a tantrum because they do not want to lift their ass from the couch to get some coffee for themselves and demanding you serve them then refuses to apologise I'd tell them to go deck themselves.

    Seriously, narcissism is a problem. The infant / toddler / child / even teenager, and the adult, are in entirely different situations. Don't delude these more intelligent, able-bodied adults who know better into thinking they have a pass because it is 'normal' by some technical and twisted stretch of logic.

    Imagine setting the same standards on yourself as you would a baby. Dear lord. Dear heavens. Just no.
    It is happening on such a large scale in society, that it is disturbing. I wonder what is the reason for it. There are authority structures that rely on people being infantilized, to trust the word of their leaders. Children go through a developmental stage where they see their parents as doing no wrong, "my dad can beat up your dad". Leaders benefit from followers who are stuck at that stage of reasoning, and we have seen it expressed quite vividly in recent events.

    How do people get stuck there? Is it trauma? Trauma and neglect causes arrested development, but I have a theory that the reverse power imbalance can also arrest development. When people are made to feel powerless through trauma and cannot process what has happened, they can get stuck at that stage in life and not be able to move on from it. I have been wondering if when people experience too much power at an early developmental stage, if the same thing can happen. If one child in a family is privileged and given unreasonable power over the other siblings, or over one parent, is it also possible to get developmentally stuck at any point you have too much power? I've noticed something in people that can look like that (not anyone here, but just glimpses over the course of my life). The instances I noticed happened to be women who had been "daddy's girl" with power over the mother who then married older men and were particularly controlling, but I think the principle can be occur in a lot of different ways

    What has happened in American society to create arrested development en masse? I don't exactly understand it.
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  9. #9
    To the waters of the wild FemMecha's Avatar
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    Is psychological development arrested en masse in the U.S. because it is a bullying culture? Was everyone traumatized in school? Is it because there are such sharply defined power imbalances so that some get stuck in an early state of privilege and power and others in an early stage of powerlessness and underprivileged? Is it the power imbalances that leaves everyone at the junior high school level at best? Something wrong with potty training? I think the acceptance of bullying is party of it. It is a cultural norm that has been made particularly manifest in recent events.
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  10. #10
    I Will Do This Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Why do we find narcissism so disgusting, when the narcissistic stage is a normal stage of development for babies and children?

    Babies are born without control and focused on getting their needs met, and barely distinguish themselves from their mother.

    As babies grow they are able to distinguish themselves and to distinguish others, and so become less narcissistic.

    The process of becoming less narcissistic is slow through childhood and adolescence into independence. And it can easily be subverted, and it is by a society that wants to keep us dependent and so more profitable.

    So we find narcissism disgusting in adults because it is a failure to grow into an independent adult. We find childlike adults to be disgusting.
    I make a distinction between childlike and childish. The first captures the positive traits of children that too many people abandon as adults: curiosity, wonder, and openness to new things. Prejudices are learned, after all. Not surprisingly these are all externally directed. The second captures those more self-directed qualities that @FemMecha describes that drive a child to take more than they give with little regard to the needs of other people. While this is justified in children who should be able to rely on adults to provide for them, it is much less defensible in adults as a rule.
    Nothing is more unnerving to the truly conventional than the unashamed misfit!
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