Nonverbal Communication

[Mind Maverick]

Anyone want to talk about nonverbal communication? What are some things you find interesting? Thoughts? Observations? Articles? Links?

 

[Mind Maverick]

 

[Maou]

Charisma on Command - YouTube

Fan of this channel. It's about learning nonverbal communication to be more charismatic. (Has verbal stuff too)

 

[Mind Maverick]

Paul Ekman is an American psychologist and professor emeritus at the University of California, San Francisco who is a pioneer in the study of emotions and their relation to facial expressions. He was ranked 59th out of the 100 most cited psychologists of the twentieth century.

 

[Ghost of the dead horse]

NONVERBAL COMMUNICATION DOES NOT EXIST

STATE YOUR MESSAGE IMMEDIATELY

COMPLY AND PROCEED WITH THE INSTRUCTIONS GIVEN ABOVE

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

I read a study in a very interesting book, "Destructive Emotions: A Scientific Dialogue with the Dalai Lama", that describe how the basic emotional facial expressions are the same all over the world. There was another study that talked about micro-expressions where the face will change to its most honest feeling expression for an instant when putting on a false face. You can slow down video to see these micro expressions that reveal the true feeling state of a person.

I find that I read non-verbal communication vividly, but it can also cause a problem because those cues tend to convey the authentic, instinctual feeling and they do not always reveal what the chosen behavior will be.

For example, I was at lunch with colleagues years ago and one woman in particular was very controlling and dominating. She had a daughter my age that was very withdrawn and quiet. The woman asked if someone's wife was coming and when the man said, 'no', she hit her fist to the table. I suddenly got a vivid impression of her slapping her daughter on the face. It doesn't mean she will slap the man's wife because of social constraints, but I felt her physical rage. That was a more explicit example, but I sense those primal feelings that are usually more subtly expressed and it makes people confusing to me because the language tends to convey the social constructs and boundaries that will determine their actions while the body language conveys the primal, authentic, internal desires.

 

[Mind Maverick]

NONVERBAL COMMUNICATION DOES NOT EXIST

STATE YOUR MESSAGE IMMEDIATELY

COMPLY AND PROCEED WITH THE INSTRUCTIONS GIVEN ABOVE

Lmao wut

 

[Mind Maverick]

Behold, the nonverbal language of the cat. I personally always called it the chicken sit. It reminded me of a hen on her nest of eggs. Now that I know it's "the loaf" I call cats doing this a chicken loaf. In baby talk. Don't judge me.

Here we have the shrimp curl, suggesting that your feline friend is perhaps far too obsessed with snack time. Alternatively, they may also be attempting more subliminal ways to demand food after being ignored when they approached you directly.

 

[Mind Maverick]

I read a study in a very interesting book, "Destructive Emotions: A Scientific Dialogue with the Dalai Lama", that describe how the basic emotional facial expressions are the same all over the world. There was another study that talked about micro-expressions where the face will change to its most honest feeling expression for an instant when putting on a false face. You can slow down video to see these micro expressions that reveal the true feeling state of a person.

Yeah, it's fascinating, isn't it? It's actually based on the research of Paul Ekman, which was based on the ideas of Darwin. There was even a show based on this, but it got cancelled. I loved it even though it was unrealistic. It seemed like some sort of psychologist fantasy played out, lol.

They mention shame in the above scene, but shame is actually not a universal one. The only ones that are...happiness, surprise, contempt, sadness, anger, disgust, and fear.

Sorry if you knew this from the video above, not sure if you watched it.

I find that I read non-verbal communication vividly, but it can also cause a problem because those cues tend to convey the authentic, instinctual feeling and they do not always reveal what the chosen behavior will be.

For example, I was at lunch with colleagues years ago and one woman in particular was very controlling and dominating. She had a daughter my age that was very withdrawn and quiet. The woman asked if someone's wife was coming and when the man said, 'no', she hit her fist to the table. I suddenly got a vivid impression of her slapping her daughter on the face. It doesn't mean she will slap the man's wife because of social constraints, but I felt her physical rage. That was a more explicit example, but I sense those primal feelings that are usually more subtly expressed and it makes people confusing to me because the language tends to convey the social constructs and boundaries that will determine their actions while the body language conveys the primal, authentic, internal desires.

I wonder whether the latter is in part a lack of awareness that the body language is not aligned with "social constructs" or actual normalcy. This video is kind of long, but it explains that kind of rage isn't actually normal. Personally, I did not know this...maybe that was just me...(no need to watch the entire thing btw)

Perhaps this could be why you associate it with her hitting her daughter? You're seeing it as both being within the same kind of level or expression of anger?

Actually, perhaps I imagined what you described as though it was worse than what it was...but I'll leave this in case it fits. My former roommate was exactly like Ramani describes and it was just downright shocking and ridiculous. I really thought it was deliberate manipulation via using her emotions as a weapon/tool for a while because it was just so extreme that it seemed like it had to have been forced, and I saw everyone around her basically just doing whatever she wanted because of it. I also thought she was purposely triggering my PTSD because she was upset with me because it was just so unbelievable. Anyway, I didn't imagine what you said as being quite that extreme, but was it like the rage in the video still, or not as bad?

I actually get kind of the same way though...when I hear inappropriate expressions of anger and they have kids, I think about them doing stuff to their kids. I actually thought that was just me because I overreact to anger and rage due to PTSD. I go into fight or flight mode in response, become hypervigilant or dissociate, etc. Kind of like my brain doing fight (hypervigilance = analytical, guarded, thinking very fast, picking up on more observations, in an emotionless state of pure evaluation; dissociation = flight) when my physical self isn't really able to do fight or flight because it'd be extreme or make the situation worse.

I went on a tangent with connected thoughts again. Anyway, I do think it's safe to presume though that if she demonstrated that pattern there in front of people she doesn't know, she more than likely produces the same one toward those she does. It's also likely that if she can't control her anger in general, then she probably does at least sometimes discipline too hard. So in a sense, I really don't think you're very far off by grouping behaviors in that way...particularly since the behaviors that are following social constructs usually have a bit more liberty without social groups which create or enforce those constructs around. Perhaps not as far as actually beating the child, but at least the same as what she's shown there in that situation and probably slightly more in a more comfortable setting. This is my opinion of probability though, not a firm statement. It's just extrapolation/speculation.

 

[Mind Maverick]

I really like this guy's videos as well.

 

[The Cat]

...

 

[Mind Maverick]

...

?

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

I wonder whether the latter is in part a lack of awareness that the body language is not aligned with "social constructs" or actual normalcy. This video is kind of long, but it explains that kind of rage isn't actually normal. Personally, I did not know this...maybe that was just me...(no need to watch the entire thing btw)

Perhaps this could be why you associate it with her hitting her daughter? You're seeing it as both being within the same kind of level or expression of anger?

Actually, perhaps I imagined what you described as though it was worse than what it was...but I'll leave this in case it fits. My former roommate was exactly like Ramani describes and it was just downright shocking and ridiculous. I really thought it was deliberate manipulation via using her emotions as a weapon/tool for a while because it was just so extreme that it seemed like it had to have been forced, and I saw everyone around her basically just doing whatever she wanted because of it. I also thought she was purposely triggering my PTSD because she was upset with me because it was just so unbelievable. Anyway, I didn't imagine what you said as being quite that extreme, but was it like the rage in the video still, or not as bad?

I actually get kind of the same way though...when I hear inappropriate expressions of anger and they have kids, I think about them doing stuff to their kids. I actually thought that was just me because I overreact to anger and rage due to PTSD. I go into fight or flight mode in response, become hypervigilant or dissociate, etc. Kind of like my brain doing fight (hypervigilance = analytical, guarded, thinking very fast, picking up on more observations, in an emotionless state of pure evaluation; dissociation = flight) when my physical self isn't really able to do fight or flight because it'd be extreme or make the situation worse.

I went on a tangent with connected thoughts again. Anyway, I do think it's safe to presume though that if she demonstrated that pattern there in front of people she doesn't know, she more than likely produces the same one toward those she does. It's also likely that if she can't control her anger in general, then she probably does at least sometimes discipline too hard. So in a sense, I really don't think you're very far off by grouping behaviors in that way...particularly since the behaviors that are following social constructs usually have a bit more liberty without social groups which create or enforce those constructs around. Perhaps not as far as actually beating the child, but at least the same as what she's shown there in that situation and probably slightly more in a more comfortable setting. This is my opinion of probability though, not a firm statement. It's just extrapolation/speculation.

I'll be sure to watch the entire video. I'm not able to compare what you were describing with this lady I knew, but my impressions were also based on her daughter's body language which looked very beaten down. I did not witness this lady hitting anyone, but there was one day she wanted me to do a transcription for her and I had begun distancing myself from her. She called me at 5:30am on my landline with caller ID at the time, and I didn't pick up because I want people to learn I don't answer my phone early in the morning. She proceeded to call me every 10 minutes for the rest of the entire day. Once I saw the obsessive pattern I had no intention of ever answering a call from her and I didn't. She must have called between 50-100 times that day, so she was severe in terms of boundary issues.

That happened after my impression of her. There was something about the set of her jaw, the muscle contractions in her face and neck, and her fist on the table that told me she had rage issues even though the rest of the table shrugged it off a bit.

 

[Mind Maverick]

...

On a related note...im so dependent upon nonverbal cues that the more contextual things, which online text chats depend upon, go over my head. Its why online I miss jokes. I wonder if this has to do with why people think im way funnier in RL.

 

[Mind Maverick]

Yeah, it's fascinating, isn't it? It's actually based on the research of Paul Ekman, which was based on the ideas of Darwin. There was even a show based on this, but it got cancelled. I loved it even though it was unrealistic. It seemed like some sort of psychologist fantasy played out, lol.

They mention shame in the above scene, but shame is actually not a universal one. The only ones that are...happiness, surprise, contempt, sadness, anger, disgust, and fear.

Sorry if you knew this from the video above, not sure if you watched it.


I wonder whether the latter is in part a lack of awareness that the body language is not aligned with "social constructs" or actual normalcy. This video is kind of long, but it explains that kind of rage isn't actually normal. Personally, I did not know this...maybe that was just me...(no need to watch the entire thing btw)

Perhaps this could be why you associate it with her hitting her daughter? You're seeing it as both being within the same kind of level or expression of anger?

Actually, perhaps I imagined what you described as though it was worse than what it was...but I'll leave this in case it fits. My former roommate was exactly like Ramani describes and it was just downright shocking and ridiculous. I really thought it was deliberate manipulation via using her emotions as a weapon/tool for a while because it was just so extreme that it seemed like it had to have been forced, and I saw everyone around her basically just doing whatever she wanted because of it. I also thought she was purposely triggering my PTSD because she was upset with me because it was just so unbelievable. Anyway, I didn't imagine what you said as being quite that extreme, but was it like the rage in the video still, or not as bad?

I actually get kind of the same way though...when I hear inappropriate expressions of anger and they have kids, I think about them doing stuff to their kids. I actually thought that was just me because I overreact to anger and rage due to PTSD. I go into fight or flight mode in response, become hypervigilant or dissociate, etc. Kind of like my brain doing fight (hypervigilance = analytical, guarded, thinking very fast, picking up on more observations, in an emotionless state of pure evaluation; dissociation = flight) when my physical self isn't really able to do fight or flight because it'd be extreme or make the situation worse.

I went on a tangent with connected thoughts again. Anyway, I do think it's safe to presume though that if she demonstrated that pattern there in front of people she doesn't know, she more than likely produces the same one toward those she does. It's also likely that if she can't control her anger in general, then she probably does at least sometimes discipline too hard. So in a sense, I really don't think you're very far off by grouping behaviors in that way...particularly since the behaviors that are following social constructs usually have a bit more liberty without social groups which create or enforce those constructs around. Perhaps not as far as actually beating the child, but at least the same as what she's shown there in that situation and probably slightly more in a more comfortable setting. This is my opinion of probability though, not a firm statement. It's just extrapolation/speculation.

Btw, there's a lot more that could be said here, and a lot of room for things to be interpreted in a way that was unintended. For example, patterns arent dependable imo. I notice them, but I dont trust them...Im not going around assuming or judging. More like predicting while knowing Im no fortune teller. There are many kinds of complexities involved with these things in reality. "Safe to presume" was bad wording on my part.

In general Im very slow to draw actual conclusions...which is why it can be difficult to get me to budge from them once I do form them.

 

[Coriolis]

On a related note...im so dependent upon nonverbal cues that the more contextual things, which online text chats depend upon, go over my head. Its why online I miss jokes. I wonder if this has to do with why people think im way funnier in RL.

Interesting. I am almost the opposite. I suspect I am poorer than most at interpreting nonverbal cues. I will often get a very vague sense, especially if cues are pointing to something being wrong or not adding up (I have a good basic BS detector), but that won't point me in the direction of what the truth or reality of the situation is. Rather than make faulty assumptions, I therefore tend to take things at face value, meaning the person's verbal statements. If their real meaning is something else AND that matters, it usually comes out in the end.

I have also been told by people adept at reading verbal cues that I give off very few. That is good, because people are just as likely to misinterpret whatever they think they do see. I cannot abide when someone discounts my explicit verbal statements in favor of some alternate expression they cobble together from assumptions and these vague cues.

As a more general contribution to the thread, I will reference the claim, often cited in such discussions, that over 90% of what we communicate is nonverbal. I have long considered that to be hogwash. If I am telling a friend about a movie I like, or how to make yogurt, or where I want to go on my upcoming vacation, I guarantee my actual words will account for a large majority of the meaning I put across. I expect this applies in most situations, even if we exclude instructional and professional interactions. The video below gives a concise explanation.

 

[Frosty]

I think my ability to pick up on them is good. My ability to respond back is poor because of my blunted affect

 

[Ghost of the dead horse]

Lmao wut

I was being a jerk. No worries it's ok, it was for science!

I've had some dealings with people who have inconsistent styles with nonverbal communication. It's quite stressful to hear them interpret (i.e. wisecracking about) someone else's nonverbal clues whereas they are oblivious to the nonverbal messages they are broadcasting the same time.

Nonverbal clues make all the difference between interpretations of what was said.

I'm a big fan of Lie to Me (tv series) as well as Inside out. That is just great stuff.

People who miss the nonverbal part of the communication seem like aliens trying to impersonate humans.

 

[Peter Deadpan]

I think my ability to pick up on them is good. My ability to respond back is poor because of my blunted affect

I know that you have a diagnosis that includes flat affect as a symptom, but for what it's worth, I've never really picked up on that from you. I hope I haven't been reading you incorrectly all this time. I actually always thought that my affect was flatter than yours (I also have a condition that worsens this from my baseline, or how I used to be before it was a significant thing).

 

[Peter Deadpan]

People who miss the nonverbal part of the communication seem like aliens trying to impersonate humans.

*cue Zuckerberg choppy robot laughter*