Nonverbal Communication

[Frosty]

I know that you have a diagnosis that includes flat affect as a symptom, but for what it's worth, I've never really picked up on that from you. I hope I haven't been reading you incorrectly all this time. I actually always thought that my affect was flatter than yours (I also have a condition that worsens this from my baseline, or how I used to be before it was a significant thing).

Its more that my face irl doesnt match up to what I intend to show. I cant mirror people basically at all. If someone tells a joke I might think its funny, but laughing is only occasional and usually much less than most other people Im around.

It doesnt really effect the internet as much if at all because body language isnt much of a thing

 

[Peter Deadpan]

Its more that my face irl doesnt match up to what I intend to show. I cant mirror people basically at all. If someone tells a joke I might think its funny, but laughing is only occasional and usually much less than most other people Im around.

It doesnt really effect the internet as much if at all because body language isnt much of a thing

I appreciate the explanation. So much is missed with online interactions. Maybe TypoC needs a Random Member Video Thread. Could be fun (for people who aren't terrified of the camera, which does not include me).

 

[Mind Maverick]

Interesting. I am almost the opposite. I suspect I am poorer than most at interpreting nonverbal cues. I will often get a very vague sense, especially if cues are pointing to something being wrong or not adding up (I have a good basic BS detector), but that won't point me in the direction of what the truth or reality of the situation is. Rather than make faulty assumptions, I therefore tend to take things at face value, meaning the person's verbal statements. If their real meaning is something else AND that matters, it usually comes out in the end.

I have also been told by people adept at reading verbal cues that I give off very few. That is good, because people are just as likely to misinterpret whatever they think they do see. I cannot abide when someone discounts my explicit verbal statements in favor of some alternate expression they cobble together from assumptions and these vague cues.

As a more general contribution to the thread, I will reference the claim, often cited in such discussions, that over 90% of what we communicate is nonverbal. I have long considered that to be hogwash. If I am telling a friend about a movie I like, or how to make yogurt, or where I want to go on my upcoming vacation, I guarantee my actual words will account for a large majority of the meaning I put across. I expect this applies in most situations, even if we exclude instructional and professional interactions. The video below gives a concise explanation.

It's funny because I'm also opposite of this. I interpret this as being more about where your trust is than a challenge to whether one or the other is more credible objectively (unless knowledge of further supporting evidence was gained), only because I am more accurate when I am able to depend on nonverbal cues and I can struggle when it's just words. I can't help but to trust my experiences--that nonverbal is not necessarily assumption--in this instance. I'm stupidly accurate with facial expressions, etc. though, too, so I don't see them as vague for me. However, there's a difference between using things to identify what someone feels and assuming why. I do tend to pick up on inconsistencies also, but like...I'll be completely clueless about what people are feeling without actually reading it a lot of times. I often couldn't have known based on context only. Even the lack of expression is often saying something, even if only setting the tone that the person is self-controlled, reasonable, cool, and level-headed (which I always love from others because then I'm more capable of being the same way instead of getting heated right back at some hot head)...or they're not usually like that but today they're apathetic, depressed, and lethargic, so now isn't the best time to bring up X, Y, Z....or they aren't being cold and indifferent, something is bothering them...etc. etc. etc.

---

That's interesting and on one hand I have to agree with the percentage, but the other part of me wants to question it a bit more. While both verbal and nonverbal are still being used, does that percentage differ? Also, what percentage is it when you can infer from the situation? For instance, something happens nearby and someone has a look on their face but doesn't say anything. In those moments I would say it's more than 50%. Ultimately though, I suppose percentage doesn't matter much I don't think.

"Do people take more notice of facial expressions than they do of words?"
I think it depends. I think some people do, and some don't. I'm definitely one of those that first notices the emotions in what's being said sooner than the words. Also, my personal experiences don't match what part of the video says...I don't only pay attention to those things when people are talking about what they think or feel. I'm not sure whether I'm outside of the norm due to the importance of reading nonverbal cues in a domestic violence household though.

 

[Mind Maverick]

[MENTION=9811]Coriolis[/MENTION] I meant to add that I also feel like I'm more vulnerable to assumptions when depending upon words alone..."Do they mean it this way? Do they mean it that way? Multiple possible interpretations, not sure which one fits...?"

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

Interesting. I am almost the opposite. I suspect I am poorer than most at interpreting nonverbal cues. I will often get a very vague sense, especially if cues are pointing to something being wrong or not adding up (I have a good basic BS detector), but that won't point me in the direction of what the truth or reality of the situation is. Rather than make faulty assumptions, I therefore tend to take things at face value, meaning the person's verbal statements. If their real meaning is something else AND that matters, it usually comes out in the end.

I have also been told by people adept at reading verbal cues that I give off very few. That is good, because people are just as likely to misinterpret whatever they think they do see. I cannot abide when someone discounts my explicit verbal statements in favor of some alternate expression they cobble together from assumptions and these vague cues.

As a more general contribution to the thread, I will reference the claim, often cited in such discussions, that over 90% of what we communicate is nonverbal. I have long considered that to be hogwash. If I am telling a friend about a movie I like, or how to make yogurt, or where I want to go on my upcoming vacation, I guarantee my actual words will account for a large majority of the meaning I put across. I expect this applies in most situations, even if we exclude instructional and professional interactions. The video below gives a concise explanation.

I think that idea that nonverbal communication comprises most of communication is assuming a different sort of information. Non-verbal cues convey emotion and instinctual drives, basically the same things that animals communicate.

Communicating actual information and data like you describe is altogether different. Language as we humans use it that is different from animal symbolic noise communication, does rely on word usage over nonverbal expressions.

That makes an interesting point in this discussion.

 

[Coriolis]

[MENTION=9811]Coriolis[/MENTION] I meant to add that I also feel like I'm more vulnerable to assumptions when depending upon words alone..."Do they mean it this way? Do they mean it that way? Multiple possible interpretations, not sure which one fits...?"

Why are you so quick to question someone's words? Do you interact with people who tend to be vague in what they say? Do you ask them to explain further if you think something is unclear? The only assumption I try to make is that people mean what they say. I realize that this is sometimes inaccurate, but I find it better than assuming the opposite. Of course I am always open to any corrections they make later. It has always seemed fundamentally disrespectful to me to discount a person's words.

I think that idea that nonverbal communication comprises most of communication is assuming a different sort of information. Non-verbal cues convey emotion and instinctual drives, basically the same things that animals communicate.

Communicating actual information and data like you describe is altogether different. Language as we humans use it that is different from animal symbolic noise communication, does rely on word usage over nonverbal expressions.

That makes an interesting point in this discussion.

Perhaps this is part of the issue. I consider emotions to be private. If I don't explicitly convey what I am feeling to someone, that is, spell it out in words, it is none of their business. Similarly, I find it rude to peer into the emotional state of someone who has not chosen to share that.

 

[Mind Maverick]

Why are you so quick to question someone's words? Do you interact with people who tend to be vague in what they say? Do you ask them to explain further if you think something is unclear? The only assumption I try to make is that people mean what they say. I realize that this is sometimes inaccurate, but I find it better than assuming the opposite. Of course I am always open to any corrections they make later. It has always seemed fundamentally disrespectful to me to discount a person's words.

It's not that I'm discounting it, it's that I'm genuinely uncertain of what they're trying to say to me. It's from being someone who doesn't like to assume and therefore misunderstand (partly because I know what that feels like all too well, even if I am overly sensitive to it myself) but 99% of it is from being someone who, in general, has a pattern of aiming for accuracy. I do ask them to explain if it's unclear, so basically, I end up just asking them straight out "I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say...do you mean it like this, or do you mean it like that, or...?"

When, for instance though, I see the expression of fear on someone's face...I trust that it's fear. I don't presume to know why the fear is there, but I recognize that the person is, for some reason, feeling afraid. I then begin questioning why, sometimes outright asking, or sometimes piecing things together over time. To depend upon expressions is not to discount a person's words.

 

[Mind Maverick]

@Coriolis On the other hand, sometimes you can tell that...for instance, a person says something is fine, or they say they are fine, but everything nonverbal clearly says they aren't. I think I'd feel like a complete ass if I ignored that and didn't interpret it as them not being fine, or as them being fine with whatever thing is being talked about. However, if I ask someone if they're upset about X, and they say no, I'll ask why they're upset then. So really, it's kind of situational, too.

 

[Mind Maverick]

Similarly, I find it rude to peer into the emotional state of someone who has not chosen to share that.

Some people literally can't even help it. It's just automatic.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

Perhaps this is part of the issue. I consider emotions to be private. If I don't explicitly convey what I am feeling to someone, that is, spell it out in words, it is none of their business. Similarly, I find it rude to peer into the emotional state of someone who has not chosen to share that.

That makes sense. Interestingly enough some people expect others to pick up on their emotional states through their non-verbal communication, so there is both a cultural and individual element to this.

It's an interesting question. For myself, I found it useful cautionary information in the example I gave about the rageful woman pounding her fist on a table, because I took it more seriously and chose to avoid her. That part was a decision I felt was correct.

I have a sense of what you are saying, and it is something I thought a lot about in my first marriage in particular because he was a very strong Ti-dom. The words that he offered me were akin to his consent of information shared with me. I learned to take his words as the single information point, in a way different from reading non-verbal cues.

I personally don't try to read the non-verbal cues, but have really strong instinctual and emotional responses much like an animal would have. I sometimes don't consider any of it as fact, would not share the impressions with others, but it influences my choices for social interaction.

 

[The Cat]

On a related note...im so dependent upon nonverbal cues that the more contextual things, which online text chats depend upon, go over my head. Its why online I miss jokes. I wonder if this has to do with why people think im way funnier in RL.

 

[Mind Maverick]

Why are you so quick to question someone's words? Do you interact with people who tend to be vague in what they say? Do you ask them to explain further if you think something is unclear? The only assumption I try to make is that people mean what they say. I realize that this is sometimes inaccurate, but I find it better than assuming the opposite. Of course I am always open to any corrections they make later. It has always seemed fundamentally disrespectful to me to discount a person's words.

Sorry for so many separate posts but I'm trying to stop editing so much too.

---

---

---

---

Idk, I seem to have issues with context and nonverbal communication just helps to mitigate the issue.
"The cookies are gone."
"THE COOKIES ARE GONE!!! "
"THE COOKIES ARE GONE!!! " (Kids / Santa?)
"The cookies are gone?"
"The cookies are gone... "

I don't feel rude for looking into peoples' emotions despite understanding and empathizing with the desire for privacy, because to me it's often a matter of security/safety. Too much privacy in those things can be threatening, and I prioritize my own need for security over the other person's need for privacy (even if to them that is their security). Reading people is a defense mechanism for me, helps me navigate the world without being quite so naive. I'm used to facing "predators" every turn I take. If it pertains to me then I don't hesitate to make it my business.

 

[Mind Maverick]

...Yes? Something to say?

If I pick up on humor I also respond back with humor.

Also, emojis and ellipses aren't really nonverbal communication imo if that's what you're trying to do. I have no idea what you're implying with these ambiguous messages, nor whether the gap in my communication (explained above just now) was what the face was about.

EDIT: [MENTION=30038]The Cat[/MENTION] Sorry I got a bit snippy. Got caught up in the ambiguity rather than looking at other things.

 

[Frosty]

I appreciate the explanation. So much is missed with online interactions. Maybe TypoC needs a Random Member Video Thread. Could be fun (for people who aren't terrified of the camera, which does not include me).

That would be interesting. And yeah, the blunted affect that I have is one of the biggest gotchas that my psychologist uses to diagnose me. That and hallucinations. They are easily my 2 biggest signs. But the blunted affect pisses me off more because its constant and effects every day all day.

I can tell what peoples body language means but I cant communicate using body language myself very well. It is pretty isolating.

 

[Coriolis]

It's not that I'm discounting it, it's that I'm genuinely uncertain of what they're trying to say to me. It's from being someone who doesn't like to assume and therefore misunderstand (partly because I know what that feels like all too well, even if I am overly sensitive to it myself) but 99% of it is from being someone who, in general, has a pattern of aiming for accuracy. I do ask them to explain if it's unclear, so basically, I end up just asking them straight out "I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say...do you mean it like this, or do you mean it like that, or...?"

When, for instance though, I see the expression of fear on someone's face...I trust that it's fear. I don't presume to know why the fear is there, but I recognize that the person is, for some reason, feeling afraid. I then begin questioning why, sometimes outright asking, or sometimes piecing things together over time. To depend upon expressions is not to discount a person's words.

Well, sure - if they are being unclear and you really are uncertain of their meaning, it is wise to ask. I will do the same. I was thinking more of cases where someone's words are clear. Say you ask a friend if they are willing to help you do something and they say that yes, they are; but then you discount this because of some nonverbal cues that you interpret as reluctance or hesitation. If someone did this to me, I would find it offensive. Sometimes people ask, "Really - do you mean that? You don't mind helping?" To which I often reply, "I wouldn't say it if I didn't mean it." If I really were reluctant to help, then I shouldn't have agreed to it. If I am unwilling to voice my disagreement, then I deserve the consequences of having to follow through on an unwanted commitment.

I don't feel rude for looking into peoples' emotions despite understanding and empathizing with the desire for privacy, because to me it's often a matter of security/safety. Too much privacy in those things can be threatening, and I prioritize my own need for security over the other person's need for privacy (even if to them that is their security). Reading people is a defense mechanism for me, helps me navigate the world without being quite so naive. I'm used to facing "predators" every turn I take. If it pertains to me then I don't hesitate to make it my business.

I am sure you realize a predator can use the same sort of emotional reading to take advantage of their target. I will always prioritize my own need for privacy. If someone feels threatened by that, well, they are welcome to minimize their interaction with me.

 

[highlander]

As my mom was BPD and my first girlfriend was one of the least verbally communicative people I've ever met, I think I got good at recognizing certain kinds of body language or behavior - basically if people were upset. A couple of years ago, I ran into the girlfriend at a restaurant for the first time since the day we broke up. I told her she looked exactly the way she did when she was 21 to which she gave me a look of "you are completely full of shit". Responding instantly in reaction to this, I said, "you're still beautiful", which she seemed to be ok with. Anyway, I do think I can be extremely perceptive to body language. I've used it in meetings at work many, many times to gauge how someone was reacting. I had a client today on video that was obviously stressed in a meeting I had with him. I don't know what was causing it but it was obvious he was having a bad day. It's actually confidence impairing when I'm giving a presentation and some people react negatively what I said. I pick up on it immediately but find a way to plow forward.

 

[Peter Deadpan]

That would be interesting. And yeah, the blunted affect that I have is one of the biggest gotchas that my psychologist uses to diagnose me. That and hallucinations. They are easily my 2 biggest signs. But the blunted affect pisses me off more because its constant and effects every day all day.

I can tell what peoples body language means but I cant communicate using body language myself very well. It is pretty isolating.

That sounds frustrating and lonely. I hope you've at least found some friends who understand you?

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

Another issue to look at with nonverbal communication is interaction with infants and children. While I don't interact with infants that often, I do teach young children who do not always have the verbal ability to communicate, and so the younger the person, the more they rely on non-verbal communication. I think this is partly why I do it without trying because it's been part of my job for decades teaching young children as well as adults. As a result I do tend to look for all cues when communicating, and find it helpful for people who are withdrawn and don't use words because of anxiety or shyness, as contrasted with people who don't want to be read. I have some sense of that, and they are communicating non-verbally to back off and not look too close, so I think there is a way non-verbal communication can serve the interests of people who don't want to participate in it - ironically perhaps.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

An extension of the young childhood scenario with limited verbal communication applies to various special needs and medical scenarios where individuals are non verbal or have limited verbal ability. This is another area in my profession as well as personal life since my father is non verbal due to strokes.


I appreciate the importance of clear communication and note the problems with non verified assumptions in non verbal communication especially when these are at odds with the words people say. I think a lot of miscommunication is rooted in these assumptions, however, skill with nonverbal communication is required in many social service disciplines that involve people with limited linguistic abilities.

 

[Mind Maverick]

Well, sure - if they are being unclear and you really are uncertain of their meaning, it is wise to ask. I will do the same. I was thinking more of cases where someone's words are clear. Say you ask a friend if they are willing to help you do something and they say that yes, they are; but then you discount this because of some nonverbal cues that you interpret as reluctance or hesitation. If someone did this to me, I would find it offensive. Sometimes people ask, "Really - do you mean that? You don't mind helping?" To which I often reply, "I wouldn't say it if I didn't mean it." If I really were reluctant to help, then I shouldn't have agreed to it. If I am unwilling to voice my disagreement, then I deserve the consequences of having to follow through on an unwanted commitment.

The thing is though, pretty much everyone else around understands what's being said and thinks it's clear. I'm typically the only one around who has that problem (those quotes were from a server mostly) and I don't have it as much in person.

I can see where you're coming from and I would agree with you. Frankly, that'd be stupid, petty, insecure, and overly dramatic of me imo, I'm not that way in situations like that. I do tend to ask, "are you sure?" but I do that even without interpretations of reluctance because it's kind of just my personality/temperament and I feel weird about accepting help from anyone. Despite how I seem online, in person my demeanor SOMETIMES comes off as quite awkward, timid, anxious, and soft-spoken. I just asked that to a guy a few minutes ago in the store because he let me go in front of him since I barely got anything. His nonverbal language was relaxed and without hesitation, it was obvious he didn't care. What was behind it was not, "I'm doubting you're okay with it," but rather, "I feel uncomfortable so I'm hesitating."

I'll give you an example of what I'm talking about with all of this. Earlier today I went to look at the room I'll be renting from now on. As I was speaking to the guy I naturally caught on to various micro expressions and such, which helped me to navigate communications. Oddly enough, it worked similarly to the way boundaries would in the sense of guiding me through what's socially acceptable. I picked up on how he was surprised I wanted to move in as early as tomorrow. Didn't think anything of it, just noticed his surprise and theorized about what it might have meant without drawing any conclusions. (I didn't tell him I'm homeless, I told him I'm wanting to find someplace closer to work). I could tell he thought it was weird/didn't understand me changing my name soon, so I added one of my reasons for doing so which made it understandable, which was so my family couldn't look up my information. However, when I said this, he flashed a micro expression of concern (think more on the fear side than the brows pushed together and down side), which I'm guessing was probably related to hoping they don't try to find me there. He didn't ask though, so I didn't say anything.

This is a very natural and automatic thing for me...not sure if it is for most, maybe this is normal. It's how I navigate social situations though. Navigating them without that...I'm prone to run into problems like a newly blind person runs into objects.

An example of when I do discredit what someone says...Trump. I'll post my analysis on his video sometime soon, but basically when he talked about how he felt, he was insincere. To clarify, it's not because of how I interpreted his expressions, but because there were inconsistencies between his words and expressions, plus his words contradicted themselves, plus some...things I cant articulate.

I am sure you realize a predator can use the same sort of emotional reading to take advantage of their target. I will always prioritize my own need for privacy. If someone feels threatened by that, well, they are welcome to minimize their interaction with me.

Yeah, but with them you just probably wouldn't know about it. I can understand it being undesirable, and if I trusted someone I could try to turn it off I guess? Never done that before, it'd be weird, like covering one eye while functioning in daily life...but rude? I don't see it. With me at least, it'd be like telling me I'm rude for using both eyes.