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  1. #1
    Audentes fortuna iuvat. Aerix's Avatar
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    Default Toxic Leaders On The Rise And Taking Society Down

    So people voted for a narcissist for president and then they're prioritizing their loyalty to him over science that pertains to life or death, politicizing masks because they think it's some sort of manipulative plot to undermine Trump when really Trump is the manipulative one, and meanwhile, narcissistic pedophile YouTubers like Shane Dawson manipulate, gaslight, and deceive fans while they support him for YEARS, which allowed him to normalize racism, zoophilia, and pedophilia, thus basically sexually grooming an entire generation of children by making them think it was fine and okay.

    There's a very clear problem here. Many people don't know how to recognize when they're actually being manipulated, much less how to protect themselves (or society) from those the manipulation is actually coming from. The importance of psychological education is grossly underestimated. The deficit of education revolving around mental health/psychology is not just damaging to those who have illnesses and are stigmatized, nor to those who can't recognize the fact that there might be a problem with themselves and those around the affected individual. It is damaging to everyone.

    Psychological education should be a part of standardized education, and that needs to include the signs of abuse and manipulation. It needs to be taught to young children...at least the basic bare minimal of recognizing abuse, and then more advanced things than that when they're older teens/young adults who are old enough to better comprehend and handle the contents with more maturity. There are SO many problems this would help with. It's not enough for adults to watch for the signs of abuse in children and then get child services involved. CHILDREN need to know when they are being abused. They need to know that what they're going through is not normal so that they can speak out and damage can be reduced by them not going through life thinking it is until their adulthood and realizing "holy shit, I'm actually really fucked up" waaayyyy after the damage has already been done. I don't think it's a good strategy to put all of the responsibility on parents and teachers, I think children need to be equipped to defend themselves. I think some things need to be required as courses for homeschool so that abusers can't get around the system as easily. Adults need to recognize narcissistic behavior in others so that these people who are only about self-interest and status while they care nothing for the country, won't become presidents. People in general need to be able to recognize when things are actually a joke and when someone is trying to pass serious things off as a joke while in reality it's normalizing horrible and unacceptable behaviors like pedophilia. They need to know when they are being gaslit, or when things are being turned around on them like "how dare you even suggest that could be true" and guilt tripped when they're called out.

    People who are educated on these matters and have more awareness make better choices in life in terms of who our leaders and most influential people are. Right now we have a system in which things like admiration are quantifiable based on how many friends, likes, followers, or whatever you have. Narcissists are highly motivated to rise in popularity, but it's in order to get narcissistic supply rather than to actually impact people in positive ways...but when narcissists are successful they negatively influence our world, especially the younger generations who have grown up on social media, and that's alarming. This kind of influence is also exacerbated by the fact that people are stuck inside their homes and the internet has become a primary source of contact/entertainment by even more people...and who knows how long this will go on? Will COVID-19 lead to a permanent evolution in the way we live everyday life? Will we become a more internet based society?

    Thanks to internet platforms, anyone and everyone can get online and become highly influential. It's easier than ever now. Abusive and toxic people are rising into some of the most influential positions in society due to the general public's lack of awareness. These people actually have widespread support to the point of that support being used as a weapon to take down rivals who may actually be innocent or even trying to warn people about them. Peoples' ignorance is turning them into tools for the narcissists' and other self-serving manipulative peoples' own personal agendas while those people praise, love, and esteem them. The kinds of damages that transpire from these people being in positions that have certain levels of power should be a wake up call to everyone that something needs to change, something needs to be done. We will never eliminate the toxic people from the world, but knowledge is power and people need to be equipped to defend themselves and their loved ones, and to hinder the promotion of toxic leaders and influential people in the media, before terrible things take place as a result. It doesn't even need to necessarily be something big, sometimes it's a slow and gradual, undetected trickle...but how long will it take for someone to come along and do something as big as Hitler? We've seen time, and time, again throughout history what happens when horrible people are leaders, but what are we actually doing to prevent it from happening again?

    If people do not start becoming educated on these types of matters, all the wrong people will be leading the world into worse places.

  2. #2
    Audentes fortuna iuvat. Aerix's Avatar
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    Thoughts? Input? Disagree? Agree? Alternatives?

  3. #3
    Senior Member anticlimatic's Avatar
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    Mental health and psychological abuse classes in school seems quite reasonable. It could be filed under either the health or science curriculums, being both educational and practical. I think early education could benefit from a lot more practical application type programs in general. Good idea.

    Where I disagree: I don't think that combating people's ability to be easily influenced with easily influencing (educating) them is the way to go. Systems can go as bad and corrupt as people, and you might just be opening a door to mass indoctrination someday of even worse systems of thought than a narcissistic leader could ever inspire on his or her own.

    I would rather determine the best path to making people resilient overall to influence. Find out what leads to confident independent decision making, and pursue that. Classes like the ones you suggest would be a good start, though the jury is still out for me on the best approach. Trying to teach people how to not be taught/influenced seems paradoxical, and perhaps impossible.

    Lately I've been thinking a lot about early childhood development and the physical risks vs psychological rewards of letting children fail and explore on their own, as a means of cultivating independent thought, rather than force them through one linear path of safe space to safe space, without letting them make any arbituary choices of their own.
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  4. #4
    Rising of the dick hero Dareyth's Avatar
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    The beginning of the end is beginning.

  5. #5
    ヒカラのミコト Earl Grey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anticlimatic View Post
    Mental health and psychological abuse classes in school seems quite reasonable. It could be filed under either the health or science curriculums, being both educational and practical. I think early education could benefit from a lot more practical application type programs in general. Good idea.

    Where I disagree: I don't think that combating people's ability to be easily influenced with easily influencing (educating) them is the way to go. Systems can go as bad and corrupt as people, and you might just be opening a door to mass indoctrination someday of even worse systems of thought than a narcissistic leader could ever inspire on his or her own.

    I would rather determine the best path to making people resilient overall to influence. Find out what leads to confident independent decision making, and pursue that. Classes like the ones you suggest would be a good start, though the jury is still out for me on the best approach. Trying to teach people how to not be taught/influenced seems paradoxical, and perhaps impossible.
    There is 'indoctrination' everywhere. Culture is almost like indoctrination- people tell you what is prioritized or isn't, or what good and what isn't, while people on the other side of the world believe and uphold completely different things. Children are impressionable, and a lot of them will absorb what they grow up with as what's normal which sets the standard for how they will deal with life.

    We already tell children to not trust strangers and free candy, it's not a huge stretch to teach them what to do instead of what to think- to not allow themselves be touched without permission, yelled at unfairly, or mistreated in general. Since they will absorb it, we can make sure that they absorb what is at least the correct, beneficial things- 'correct' being things that will serve them and others well instead of damaging them or holding them back. This can start from very simple things, such as impressing upon the children that being beaten up is NOT NORMAL and providing a place for them to report their experiences, and a safe place to turn to. People will need to realize that there are children out there who have literally no one- not a single good parent, no watchful or caring relatives, and that relying on the parent to report isn't going to cut it for those kids. They deserve better than that.

    I think the reason we don't have it is because thankfully the majority of people don't need it, but teaching what are basically survival skills that the child can take into adulthood? Sounds like a good idea. Healthy children with loving parents can get sucked into toxic friendships and marriage- educating them on how to deal on such a situation and how to spot when they are being treated badly will go a long way.

    Not to mention, this may also have the ripple effect of helping potential abusers before they become abusers- helping in the sense that since people can identify them now, perhaps there will be more of a focus given on rehabilitating toxic people so that they can have a normal life. If they find nothing to prey on, with people who know better telling them they need help and they are doing things wrong, perhaps they will reorient how they behave themselves in life instead of being able to predate endlessly and be defended, or even popularized, glamorized for it.



    EDIT: I think the difficulty lies in the fact that a lot of people just don't know how to raise kids. The fact of the matter is that they ARE impressionable and whether you like it or not they do absorb things like a sponge, and lots of people listen to what they are first told without question. That can't be changed- they literally know very little, and adults have a responsibility and degree of control over them due to that- they are responsible for the child's natural state of ignorance, something not every parent deals with responsibly.

    There will be things they will have to be told to listen to and obey without question (at the moment, eg: don't steal!), and personally, the ideal is for these things to at least be things that truly serve the child instead of the parents' egotistical, narrow-minded ideals- things that serve the child are things such as: eat your greens, don't eat the goddamn dirt Jeremy, don't stay out too late, don't trust strangers even if they give you candy- what I'm saying is that "If uncle Jerry or Bob from the playground- if ANYONE ever hits you, tell mommy and daddy, okay?" can be added to that list of things children are told to do without question, ideally followed up with more understanding once they get older so that it doesn't become blind control and the children know why they have to do the things they do.
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  6. #6
    Rising of the dick hero Dareyth's Avatar
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    Everyone is about teaching people how to think freely, till they think the wrong things.
    The beginning of the end is beginning.
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  7. #7
    ヒカラのミコト Earl Grey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dareyth View Post
    Everyone is about teaching people how to think freely, till they think the wrong things.
    People change and evolve, and so do their needs. What you say should not be a deterrent to the act of teaching in itself- people have to be taught, and they have to learn. Mistakes are a very unfortunate part of the process that at its most ideal is completely avoided, though sometimes the best we can do is minimize or cut our losses. What would be utterly unideal, even irresponsible, is to step to the side in jaded stillness and ignore the progress you can make, or worse, leave it to the free hand of nature where it may be eaten by wolves. What is best and correct keeps changing, and we need to keep being receptive and fill the holes of our ignorance and mend our mistakes. Help it where it can be helped.
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  8. #8
    Audentes fortuna iuvat. Aerix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anticlimatic View Post
    Mental health and psychological abuse classes in school seems quite reasonable. It could be filed under either the health or science curriculums, being both educational and practical. I think early education could benefit from a lot more practical application type programs in general. Good idea.

    Where I disagree: I don't think that combating people's ability to be easily influenced with easily influencing (educating) them is the way to go. Systems can go as bad and corrupt as people, and you might just be opening a door to mass indoctrination someday of even worse systems of thought than a narcissistic leader could ever inspire on his or her own.

    I would rather determine the best path to making people resilient overall to influence. Find out what leads to confident independent decision making, and pursue that. Classes like the ones you suggest would be a good start, though the jury is still out for me on the best approach. Trying to teach people how to not be taught/influenced seems paradoxical, and perhaps impossible.

    Lately I've been thinking a lot about early childhood development and the physical risks vs psychological rewards of letting children fail and explore on their own, as a means of cultivating independent thought, rather than force them through one linear path of safe space to safe space, without letting them make any arbituary choices of their own.
    Yeah, I agree, more practical things should be taught in school. Finances / money management, the laws and legal rights where they live, etc. We have physical education/health requirements...why don't we have mental education/health requirements? Financial education/health?

    I can see your point in indoctrinating people through a system that way, and systems do often have a pattern of becoming more corrupt over time. I think that's in part because corrupt people are attracted to power, but regardless of whether that's actually why, the indoctrination is indeed a vulnerability. We've already seen some issues in schools with misinformation about historical events and figures, etc.

    One problem I see in this though is that I think that a lot of people are already resistant to influence in general, thus causing soooo so many people to get stuck in unhealthy behaviors and decisions, repeating the same issues throughout their lives (which is also in part caused by lack of education). Without knowing what to look for, people might just become fearful of or rebellious against outside influence, including in negative ways, just simply because it's influence, which is what we're already seeing with the refusal to wear masks. While I do believe being sheeple / having a cult mentality is a real problem that should be addressed, I don't think independent thinking necessarily addresses the root of the issue enough, and a lot of people may think they're making their own choices and that they're simply agreeing or showing support or something without being aware that they're being influenced. I think it's important for people to start making more informed/educated decisions, too, or to be aware of when/how they're being influenced, but that just ties back into people being more educated about mental health.

    If part of independent thinking involved educating yourself more, then you have the problem where there will be a lot of faulty resources and misinformation that is ingrained in people who don't educate themselves properly, or in various resources put out there to mislead others deliberately. I think that if colleges/universities can handle classroom education on psychology, then schools in general should be able to also, no? I just think it's important for people to be unified in having knowledge of the most accurate information available. Furthermore, a lot of people wouldn't even value or see the importance of mental health education. You'd have to basically have a society that values education, and frankly...I don't think we have that. I think people mostly just live their lives and try to enjoy themselves unless they're fueled by pretentiousness often times. A genuine curiosity or desire for education isn't all that common, and people would have to be motivated to self-teach if going the independent thinking without standardized education route.

    I don't think that combating people's ability to be easily influenced with easily influencing (educating) them is the way to go.
    I also think there's a key factor at play here, and that is that in this case you're educating people about how to identify how people (narcissists, etc.) manipulate, control, etc...thus, you're essentially equipping people to recognize corrupt influence (which would backfire quite a bit if they were also a corrupt influence). I think there'd be so many educators involved that it'd be difficult to streamline corruption into it, especially since they'd be among so many others who would be trained to recognize those things (and teach others how to).

  9. #9
    Rising of the dick hero Dareyth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Earl Grey View Post
    People change and evolve, and so do their needs. What you say should not be a deterrent to the act of teaching in itself- people have to be taught, and they have to learn. Mistakes are a very unfortunate part of the process that at its most ideal is completely avoided, though sometimes the best we can do is minimize or cut our losses. What would be utterly unideal, even irresponsible, is to step to the side in jaded stillness and ignore the progress you can make, or worse, leave it to the free hand of nature where it may be eaten by wolves. What is best and correct keeps changing, and we need to keep being receptive and fill the holes of our ignorance and mend our mistakes. Help it where it can be helped.
    I never said stop trying to improve, I am saying at some point one group will try to claim authority over another group. Then purging of different ideas occure. Then we are back to square one, with one group of thought dominating everything, even if it is wrong. So really, "truth" is also dictated by the winner of ideas in a social setting. The actual truth never mattered. Its all about how many people believe something.

    The problem isn't in how we think, but how we deal with different thoughts outside of our own, that we disagree with. Humans generally demonize the outgroup, and rationalize unfounded beliefs as to why they could possibly believe it. That there, lies in the problems. Humans stopped seeing people as humans. They only see them as flaws, or something that is stupid/needs to be educated. Instead of respecting them as an individual of equal quality, and intellect.
    The beginning of the end is beginning.
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  10. #10
    Feline Moderator The Cat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dareyth View Post
    I never said stop trying to improve, I am saying at some point one group will try to claim authority over another group. Then purging of different ideas occure. Then we are back to square one, with one group of thought dominating everything, even if it is wrong. So really, "truth" is also dictated by the winner of ideas in a social setting. The actual truth never mattered. Its all about how many people believe something.

    The problem isn't in how we think, but how we deal with different thoughts outside of our own, that we disagree with. Humans generally demonize the outgroup, and rationalize unfounded beliefs as to why they could possibly believe it. That there, lies in the problems. Humans stopped seeing people as humans. They only see them as flaws, or something that is stupid/needs to be educated. Instead of respecting them as an individual of equal quality, and intellect.
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