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  1. #11
    7w8 3w4 1w2 I, Tonya's Avatar
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    50/50, but that's what makes me dislike them overall. If I can't rely on a response or how they would react, makes me not want to interact. Though, I would like to help humanity, I dislike them individually.
    Promise me. From here on out, never again waste new tears on the past.
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  2. #12

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    Neither. People exist, finding ways to increase what's beneficial to themselves.

  3. #13
    Mr. Brightside... The Cat's Avatar
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    Mostly Harmless.
    With all due respect,
    The Cat.

    Clarity demands a certain degree of objectivity, from the world as well as the observer...
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  4. #14
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Mostly conditional.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  5. #15
    幽霊||๏ sᴇxʏ ʜᴇxʏ Hexcoder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    I perceive humans on average as flawed but mostly wellmeaning and capable of growth.

    "Good" and "evil" are highly problematic terms that make little sense outside of our species. If "good" means "serving the good of mankind" than the question "are humans good?" becomes "are humans good for mankind?". Are they good for the planet? Hell no. Are they good to each other? Mostly, otherwise we wouldn#T have survived and civilization wouldn't be possible. It's been shown over and over again that throughout history humans have generally become more and more cooperative, gentler, less violent and generally more civilized. As a general trend. I take courage from that thought.

    A lot of political and ideological conflicts have to do with this question of human nature being good or bad. With how much you can trust other people. The historical trend is towards broadening that circle of trust and cooperation and solidarity. It has been for millenia. A lot of the current culture wars are fought over this widening of the circle. There is movement and resistance. In the long term we'll have to widen the circle in order to face the challenges we've created for ourselves.

    The problem I see is not one of good or evil but one of complexity. Thanks to technology we have developed so fast that it becomes harder and harder to process it all. Our individual brains are lagging behind our collective technological and cultural possibilities. Many people seem overstrained with the demands that come with this now highly accelerated process of increased interconnectedness and civilization.




    To be honest, the above is a crude mixture of my own gut feeling and some superficial reading of several important 20th and 21st century thinkers.
    I think subjectively defining good vs evil is unavoidable, actually. If someone hurts you, and it was a fair reason to be hurt, that's typically considered bad. If they change your life in some positive significant way youll never forget, its seen as good. People are categotized as allies or foes to us based on these things as we live out our lives. Things add up and tip the scale one way or another, how we perceive them. People dont go through life without any views about anything whatsoever, or being entirely neutral, apathetic, indifferent about everything that people do...or if they come close to it, most would call that being a pushover. Without good vs evil there cant even be boundaries. I used to think defining good vs evil was problematic too, until I recognized the hypocrisy or contradiction I had in me by not admitting I do categorize things that way. Rape is evil, psychopaths who prey on others are evil. Damaging someones life because youve been abusing them is evil. The subjective definitions of it are natural. Trying to define it objectively or collectively is where the controversy comes in.

  6. #16
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    Still thinking about this.
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  7. #17
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hexcoder View Post
    I think subjectively defining good vs evil is unavoidable, actually. If someone hurts you, and it was a fair reason to be hurt, that's typically considered bad. If they change your life in some positive significant way youll never forget, its seen as good. People are categotized as allies or foes to us based on these things as we live out our lives. Things add up and tip the scale one way or another, how we perceive them. People dont go through life without any views about anything whatsoever, or being entirely neutral, apathetic, indifferent about everything that people do...or if they come close to it, most would call that being a pushover. Without good vs evil there cant even be boundaries. I used to think defining good vs evil was problematic too, until I recognized the hypocrisy or contradiction I had in me by not admitting I do categorize things that way. Rape is evil, psychopaths who prey on others are evil. Damaging someones life because youve been abusing them is evil. The subjective definitions of it are natural. Trying to define it objectively or collectively is where the controversy comes in.
    That in no way contradicts what I wrote. Maybe you misunderstood or maybe I didn't explain myself well, but I didn't write what you seem to imply I wrote. I just said judging the species from the outside in a neutral way by standards they use to judge interactions among themselves is difficult.
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
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  8. #18
    darkened dreams Ravenetta's Avatar
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    There is something that falls outside of what happens in nature that I do have to call evil in humans. In nature harm is typically done for individual benefit of securing food, a mate, or territory. In humans this certainly happens, but some of the cruelty is done purely for the sake of cruelty with no tangible benefit to the individual - sometimes only risk for the individual. This is true of a case where a woman, her friend and boyfriend raped and tortured her daughter to death in the town where I used to live. That goes against all of nature, procreation, individual interest, machiavellian thinking, everything. It isn't even self-interest, but just evil and that's what humans are capable of doing, so they are evil freaks of nature in some instances.
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  9. #19
    Somber and irritated cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravenetta View Post
    There is something that falls outside of what happens in nature that I do have to call evil in humans. In nature harm is typically done for individual benefit of securing food, a mate, or territory. In humans this certainly happens, but some of the cruelty is done purely for the sake of cruelty with no tangible benefit to the individual - sometimes only risk for the individual. This is true of a case where a woman, her friend and boyfriend raped and tortured her daughter to death in the town where I used to live. That goes against all of nature, procreation, individual interest, machiavellian thinking, everything. It isn't even self-interest, but just evil and that's what humans are capable of doing, so they are evil freaks of nature in some instances.
    Yes, I do think this is a good thing to call out. Though ofc maybe studies have been done on certain other species that says otherwise that I'm unaware of, I haven't ever heard mention of psychopathic/sociopathic/sadistic members of other species who kill just to exert maximum suffering without any intent of consumption; whose pleasure receptors are rewarded via these actions. I do think some humans are extremely evil. In early human society these folks would have been culled out / kicked out of the tribe - and rightly so.

    But what I was thinking when I fist saw this thread was just the vast difference between human being 1:1 and human being in group. The former, barring sociopathy or other such things, might be very different in solo mode vs how they become in a group. I don't know, groups really bother me - the % of people susceptible to group emotion (fwiw I don't think this has anything to do with Fe/Fi) seems vastly higher than 50%, so, a group can become completely 'evil' or 'good', depending I guess on the cultish leader or propaganda being consumed. Edit: Otoh with 'bad' people, they can and will inflict great harm in a 1:1 context, as it is hidden from the group (if a 'good' group) and thus can get away with it in a 1:1 context. But I guess my point is that really scary stuff is possible on a really large scale with maximum impact on a huge scale when groups come into play, vs it being more contained in a 1:1 context.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  10. #20
    Moderator Yuu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravenetta View Post
    There is something that falls outside of what happens in nature that I do have to call evil in humans. In nature harm is typically done for individual benefit of securing food, a mate, or territory. In humans this certainly happens, but some of the cruelty is done purely for the sake of cruelty with no tangible benefit to the individual - sometimes only risk for the individual. This is true of a case where a woman, her friend and boyfriend raped and tortured her daughter to death in the town where I used to live. That goes against all of nature, procreation, individual interest, machiavellian thinking, everything. It isn't even self-interest, but just evil and that's what humans are capable of doing, so they are evil freaks of nature in some instances.
    It does exist in nature; though rarely. Pretty much only in certain species of monkeys. Macaques are especially awful.
    " Do something, even if it's wrong."

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    We don't wanna set up for the kill, but that's what I'm 'bout to do."
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