User Tag List

First 123

Results 21 to 26 of 26

  1. #21
    ฬᎥɬⲥhฯ ฬ๏ოᥑռ Luminous's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    925 sx/sp
    Socionics
    ✨ Fi
    Posts
    6,249

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ThisName View Post
    Woah, I am surprised by the amount of people that responded to this thread. I was honestly thinking about deleting it or to just vanish from this forum since I was kind of ashamed of the things I wrote, if that makes sense.

    I was in such a weird mood when I made this thread. Afterwards I'm always like... Was that... really necessary? What the heck was I thinking to post something like this?? Did I really mean what I wrote? Do I still feel like it? (Hence why I am responding this late, I tried to avoid this thread for a few days. I was feeling kind of awkward. xd)

    Anyway, I am going to go through the responses now. You're all thanked in advance.
    Please don't disappear! I honestly think this is one of the best threads that I've seen here. There's much to learn about other people regarding this topic.
    aka Janet Beattitudes, woman about town. Kicking ass and taking names meekly, with love and respect for her fellow humans.
    Likes Maya Dawn, ThisName liked this post

  2. #22
    Senior Member 1487610420's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    9,999

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ThisName View Post
    Woah, I am surprised by the amount of people that responded to this thread. I was honestly thinking about deleting it or to just vanish from this forum since I was kind of ashamed of the things I wrote, if that makes sense.

    I was in such a weird mood when I made this thread. Afterwards I'm always like... Was that... really necessary? What the heck was I thinking to post something like this?? Did I really mean what I wrote? Do I still feel the same about it? (Hence why I am responding this late, I tried to avoid this thread for a few days. I was feeling kind of awkward. xd)

    Anyway, I am going to go through the responses now. You're all thanked in advance.
    Likes ThisName liked this post

  3. #23
    Somber and irritated cascadeco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    9w1 sp/sx
    Posts
    8,448

    Default

    I am not sure how to answer this. I think I probably have a tough time personally walking the line between caring for other people and caring for myself, and can easily over-extend myself in personal situations and try to adapt in crazy big ways, and given that I can easily go too far in the opposite direction - such that I can relate to being prone to hardening myself for protection.

    I think my 'starting point' when younger was (and always has been) not wanting to hurt people and not wanting to be the cause/source of hurting someone. My 'tactics' for accomplishing this will vary based on the situation or person. If my not wanting to hurt their feelings means not saying anything whatsoever to them / avoiding most interaction, I'll do that. If my not wanting to hurt them or make them feel 'bad' about themselves means not speaking up when I am not actually ok with something, and instead try to adapt to see if I'm 'ok' with it, I'll do the adapting. My own version of a lot of this theme seems to be my trying to 'protect' them from them feeling anything negative towards me or turned towards themselves due to something I say. [I say all of this because one of the key things that shaped me by late grade school was my being horrified that everyone started being 'mean' to each other -- so I went inwards and so I probably was from that point on never wanting to do anything that I deemed 'mean' to someone else because I was horrified watching the carnage all around me of everyone doing this to each other]

    But as I've gotten older -- and I still have issues with this, don't get me wrong -- I know better that I'm doing just as much potential damage by all of this than by being more honest. So the result is my issue with 'walking the fine line' -- I can occasionally (perhaps more often than not, lately?) go the more blunt route in consequence because I can have a harder time tactfully saying what I actually think --- because inevitably I'm going to hurt them with any honesty. I really am not on a mission in life to hurt people, but then my actual feelings might necessitate hurting them, so it's a thing I haven't really figured out yet and certainly haven't perfected. Also I say all the time on here that I've become more jaded/ intolerant with people as I've grown older, so any starting empathy has decreased. And: some people are just terrible. Do they theoretically deserve love/compassion just like everyone else? Sure, maybe many. Do all? Not necessarily. Is there a 'reason' behind any and all actions? Oh, certainly. Do I need to be ok with it? No, not necessarily. And does care need to come from me in particular? No. etc.

    So when it comes to straight-up empathy with other peoples' plights or feelings, I am not at all going to talk myself up as this being a strength of mine/ something I naturally do, as I think I'm actually not that great at it. I have too many filters going on where I read whether I feel they are actually genuinely hurting, vs whether they're trying to use and abuse a system, whether I feel they're trying to suck up all of the emotional bandwidth of everyone else on the planet because of their own issues, and all sorts of other things -- so I in no way, shape, or form dish out 'empathy' to every seeker. I like to think I have genuine empathy for those who genuinely are in distress, but the fact is that even if people who *I* don't think are genuinely in distress might actually be, just not by my determination, so perhaps I'm not that empathetic. I really don't know how one determines this, other than I can say I definitely am not like some -- who maybe are more 'pure' and all-giving -- but who also get taken advantage of, potentially, quite a lot. But really if they are none the worse, who knows if this is a bad thing? I don't.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

    My Photography and Watercolor Fine Art Prints!!! Cascade Colors Fine Art Prints
    Likes Luminous, ThisName liked this post

  4. #24
    Somber and irritated cascadeco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    9w1 sp/sx
    Posts
    8,448

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravenetta View Post
    Part

    [B] Strangely enough, that detached observation can pull one too far into the experience of another, making too many justifications for their behaviors because that is what they do. When you start to get your head around the mindset of another person, you also glimpse the experiences that caused their pain, the manner in which they justify their current behaviors, and how their sense of reality, even when it is quite warped, can actually make sense.
    Very good point. One can go deeply down the rabbit hole if really trying to empathize with someone else - and if the place that person is coming from is, well, warped, then I suppose that's where being an actual licensed therapist whose role allows for detachment vs 'just an empath' who might not be able to maintain detachment/ harm from self becomes a key important factor.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

    My Photography and Watercolor Fine Art Prints!!! Cascade Colors Fine Art Prints
    Likes Luminous, ThisName, Ravenetta liked this post

  5. #25
    Pasta Goddess ThisName's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2019
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Socionics
    :(: None
    Posts
    446

    Default

    @Thestralis
    What does good is for me to understand that they are in trouble, and to act on that understanding in accordance with my personal values and practical considerations to offer what help I can. I suppose this ties into what the OP called compassion, but I always considered compassion just a feeling or attitude, meaning it did not imply or require action.
    Now that you say this I have to think about something. In some way I do believe that most humans act out of 'egoism'. And egoism has a bad connotation to it but it's not negative per se.
    When I help someone, I also do it because it makes me feel good. People might start to like you when you help them, when you listen to their problems, if I don't help them I might feel guilty so I'll avoid that feeling by helping them, it makes me believe that I am a good person, that I'm doing something good, that I'm making myself useful etc,... Humans developed empathy because we needed it to survive. I think that needing others to survive and being 'kind'/helpful because of that isn't selfless at all. (One of my teachers once used this as an explanation for why we can be 'altruistic'. I believe it proves the complete opposite, it's only for our own use)

    This does not mean that each time when I help someone I'll think about how good it makes me feel or how thankful they should be. But if I look deeper into it I can't deny that there's also some 'gain' for me, the act of helping someone is not completely selfless. Even when it's out of 'compassion'. (Which brings me to another point; when you help someone, most of the time you expect the other person to be thankful for your help. This sometimes creates inequality between two parties. The 'mighty' helper and the 'poor starving lamb with four broken legs'. And this is also one of the reasons why I think that people can never be truly altruistic. I've seen the 'sweetest' people with 'the best' intentions turn into absolute douchebags because someone wasn't showing enough respect/gratefulness for their unwanted help/support.)

    I believe that if we didn't experience positive reinforcements (as in; thank you, gratefulness, a good image, connection, friendship,...) or negative consequences (feeling guilty for not helping someone, shame, being perceived as a bad person) that people wouldn't be that helpful at all. (But good, maybe this is kinda off topic because helpfulness isn't the same as being empathic.)

    And I don't think that this is a bad thing, it's just how people are. But because this sounds so negative, people prefer to give words to it like 'compassion' as if the only reason why you're helping someone is because you're such a selfless person.
    Many people see 'pleasers' as people who are selfless, or I've heard many people say this at least. And from what I've noticed are pleasers perceived by other people as both good and weak (not sayin that I think that they are weak). I think you could also see them as people who just don't respect their own boundaries, or who are not able to respect their own boundaries due to fear par example. They are not selfless, they probably feel immense guilt when they have to 'let someone down'. But that definitely doesn't make them selfless or more empathic than average. People who always want to please someone definitely have some underlying issues. (Maybe this sound kind of negative or denigratory towards people who are pleasers. I don't mean it like that in any way) I think that society 'praises' pleasers way too much, even though it's unhealthy and they actually suffer from being a pleaser.

    @Ravenetta, beautiful post. I can't respond to everything since it's kinda long (and my post is becoming long too already) but I definitely appreciate what you wrote. I might respond to some things later on, for now I picked one statement out of it.
    I would say that I try to maintain respect for NOT assuming that I feel everything they are feeling. I would never ever say to someone "I know what you are feeling".
    I personally agree with this, in a way that this is how I like to be treated.
    Though I think there are some side notes.

    I once had a conversation about this with my ex. I think I was talking about depression and she said something like "But many people go through that". It's not the only thing she said of course, but it annoyed me and it definitely didn't make me feel better. So I decided to tell her so, that I didn't like it to get compared to other people, or that the fact that others felt that way too didn't make me feel better. That it rather made me feel as if my story/feelings was/are insignificant.

    She then explained to me how she viewed it and why. Her therapist always told her this, that she wasn't the only one with these problems. And for her personally, it was helpful. It made her feel better to know that she wasn't the only one who was going through something like that. That's why she thought that it would also be helpful to me. She then understood that I didn't perceive it like that. And I understood why she would say something like that.

    Though I would say that she's a pretty emotional empathic person, much more than me. But the way she showed it didn't really 'match' her empathy level. What could also explain why people who are emotionally empathic do sometimes say 'stupid' things. Everyone has a different perception of how to be helpful, and what we perceive as helpful advice (though, giving advice isn't always useful).
    Maybe this is how you could divide empathy in 'levels' like IQ or EQ. Someone 'score' can be very high on the feeling part, but not all too high on giving advice or giving a meaningful, helpful response (cognitive empathy).

    Or a simple explanation could just be that many people tread others the way they like to be treated themselves. Without considering if the other person indeed likes it to be treated that way.

    (And please, take this post with a grain of salt -or a whole bag-. These are just some random thoughts, how I think about it at this moment, not necessarily 'the truth' or how I think it should be)

    @Luminous
    If I'm around someone who is negative nearly all the time, it's completely and totally exhausting to me. I really just can't do it.
    What's the cause of the exhaustion? The most obvious explanation (to me) would be that it's because you feel the negative emotions of the other person. Is that correct or is there another explanation for it?

    If it's correct; this is something I can't relate to but I think it's a beautiful quality in some way (though it sucks too). And I also think it's interesting because I don't experience it like that. :p I can imagine getting exhausted, I get exhausted too when I am around others but not for the same reason as you do I think. And some people are indeed more draining than others.

    I'm not sure how to answer the 'how' question. Feelings happen.
    The how question is more in a way like; how do you physically feel it. I honestly don't know how to answer this question myself so don't worry about it.
    I was picturing it in this way more or less; one of your friends is crying. You know how it feels to be sad, the way your body feels when you cry (maybe you get headaches, your chest hurts, your throat becomes sore, you might start sweating,... it's different for everyone). Do you experience those physical feelings too when someone else is crying?

    @Maya Dawn & @Luminous. Thank you, that's very comforting to hear.

    I have an additional question: Would y'all rather have a different amount of empathy than you currently experience? Would it be better? Make you happier?
    Interesting question.

    Sometimes I think that my lack of emotional empathy makes it hard for me to connect with people, or to 'live in the present', with others and not just me existing with others around me. Or I feel weird/guilty for not feeling anything while they are hurting. I don't think that I feel nothing at all, but it's not intense and I can easily shake it off. I can't 'pin point' what I exactly feel, it's shallow. Or also on the positive side; when someone else is happy. Yeah, I will 'feel happy' for them but I won't experience their joy as someone with a high empathy level would, I think. (I honestly don't know anymore, I think I can genuinely feel happy when someone else is too? It depends on my own mood. And for someone with a high emotional empathy level, this wouldn't depend upon their mood I think)

    An example from when I was visiting a hospital with school, a place where I could possibly do my internship. There were many kids/people who were extremely ill. It wasn't sure if they would survive their illness. Our purpose would be to make their stay in the hospital as comfortable and enriching as possible (doing activities with them, talking,...). After our visit the teacher asked us what we thought about it and how we felt.
    I had to answer this question first, my response was that I thought it was very interesting and that it could be a place where I could learn a lot (about their illnesses etc). While everyone else started to talk about how it touched them emotionally...
    I didn't feel that. Yes, it sucks for them to be in that position, but I don't feel it. I remember this one person in the 'creativity room', they were completely bald, sitting in a wheelchair with all those tubes (?) attached to them. They were interacting with their supervisor (?) and they genuinely seemed happy. That stayed with me for some reason because there just was something about the whole atmosphere. It's a shitty place to be, but seeing how that person was still able to laugh made me feel something. Not sad, or happy, just something.
    But I didn't feel bad for the two/four year olds who were incredibly sick too. I can recognize that it's hard to deal with, but I would be lying if I said that it touched me. But if I would've said this to my teacher, in class, I would probably be perceived as a person without a heart.


    On the other side I believe that it gives me the ability to deal with 'harder' stuff. A friend of mine once went through a hard breakup and even though I really wasn't feeling all too great I was able to put my feelings 'aside' to help her. She was suicidal, and I was too. One part of me felt as if I was lying; who am I to talk about this? I didn't even believe that it would get better either, that it's worth being alive. Deep down I even agreed with her, this place sucks, let's die. But I mean, you can't tell someone that it's totally okay to just fucking die. And I didn't want to let her down because I knew that she trusted me and that I made her feel understood, we've always had this mutual understanding.
    It was pretty hard at first, 'getting over' my own shit to help her, or to put things into words without dragging her down. Since I still wanted to be honest about how I felt about it, so we could share our feelings, to create mutual understanding. There was a sense of connection, but emotionally? In some way maybe, I don't know for sure.

    Even though it was pretty heavy, it never drained me (it actually made me feel 'better' in some way, since I had to lift myself up too, and I was able to connect with her again, with our shitty thoughts and feelings, we're in this shit together, ey!). And even though I knew how it felt to be suicidal (I mean, I was feeling it back then too xd), I didn't feel bad for her. Yes, I was worried when she didn't respond for a while anymore when one of her last text messages was that she was just driving around and that she didn't know were she was. I felt bad for her in a way that it just sucked that she wasn't able to see her own worth, that she's actually so damn smart but that mental illness has got the best of her,... But it didn't hurt me emotionally. I could say that I felt something, but it wasn't intense.
    The positive thing is that I won't 'break' under it, it was hard, but not too much to handle on an emotional level because I just don't feel it like that. I slightly remember feeling bad, being worried, I thought about her a lot, but not as intense as how I would feel when I am really sad. (Though I now remember something someone once told me that really touched me. So yes, I sometimes do have stronger emotional responses but I tend to forget about it. This is also why I might believe from time to time that I'm completely emotionless while that's not -always- the case)

    I think that if I would've become (too) emotional that this could've been another story. I can imagine that if someone would become extremely worried, sad, anxious, hurt,... That it could break them up.

    But okay, to actually answer your question; yes and no.



    I also invite you to answer your own question, Luminous. :p

    Edit; Jezus crap. I suck at keeping my posts short. I should work at that. :')
    “I can’t explain what I mean. And even if I could, I’m not sure I’d feel like it.”

    - J.D. Salinger, The Catcher in the Rye
    Likes Luminous, Maya Dawn, Ravenetta liked this post

  6. #26
    ฬᎥɬⲥhฯ ฬ๏ოᥑռ Luminous's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    925 sx/sp
    Socionics
    ✨ Fi
    Posts
    6,249

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ThisName View Post
    I once had a conversation about this with my ex. I think I was talking about depression and she said something like "But many people go through that". It's not the only thing she said of course, but it annoyed me and it definitely didn't make me feel better. So I decided to tell her so, that I didn't like it to get compared to other people, or that the fact that others felt that way too didn't make me feel better. That it rather made me feel as if my story/feelings was/are insignificant.

    She then explained to me how she viewed it and why. Her therapist always told her this, that she wasn't the only one with these problems. And for her personally, it was helpful. It made her feel better to know that she wasn't the only one who was going through something like that. That's why she thought that it would also be helpful to me. She then understood that I didn't perceive it like that. And I understood why she would say something like that.

    Though I would say that she's a pretty emotional empathic person, much more than me. But the way she showed it didn't really 'match' her empathy level. What could also explain why people who are emotionally empathic do sometimes say 'stupid' things. Everyone has a different perception of how to be helpful, and what we perceive as helpful advice (though, giving advice isn't always useful).
    Maybe this is how you could divide empathy in 'levels' like IQ or EQ. Someone 'score' can be very high on the feeling part, but not all too high on giving advice or giving a meaningful, helpful response (cognitive empathy).

    Or a simple explanation could just be that many people tread others the way they like to be treated themselves. Without considering if the other person indeed likes it to be treated that way.
    I agree with the above. That's why it truly is better to treat people the way they want to be treated (within reason, of course), and it points out how empathy is really needed to do that. In order to have an idea of the way they want to be treated, we need to suspend judgment and try to understand things from their point of view. (Also I feel the same way regarding the Everyone feels like that sometimes statements... they make me feel like I don't matter...)

    What's the cause of the exhaustion? The most obvious explanation (to me) would be that it's because you feel the negative emotions of the other person. Is that correct or is there another explanation for it?
    Hmm. No, I don't always feel the exact emotions of the other person. For instance, one person that was this way for large amounts of time in my life growing up was my father. He is a champion ranter. He might turn on the morning news and then start commenting in an angry ranting way. I wouldn't necessarily take on the anger that he had, in that whatever issue that angered him wouldn't necessarily anger me, but the whole atmosphere would affect me. All the negativity flying around. Now if it's someone I care about going through something like depression, the atmosphere would also affect me, but it would also be my own concern for them, and my attempts at reflecting back to them to show they're seen? Like I'd take on some of the emotions without thinking about it, or at least some of some kind of emotions (I say that because, I can't know exactly what theirs are like.) Also the fact that there's no helping in some situations.

    The how question is more in a way like; how do you physically feel it. I honestly don't know how to answer this question myself so don't worry about it.
    I was picturing it in this way more or less; one of your friends is crying. You know how it feels to be sad, the way your body feels when you cry (maybe you get headaches, your chest hurts, your throat becomes sore, you might start sweating,... it's different for everyone). Do you experience those physical feelings too when someone else is crying?
    Ah! I have never thought about that. Yes! At least with crying, at least when it's someone I care for deeply.

    I think that if I would've become (too) emotional that this could've been another story. I can imagine that if someone would become extremely worried, sad, anxious, hurt,... That it could break them up.
    ...
    I also invite you to answer your own question, Luminous. :p
    Aye, that's just it... with a lot of empathy, spending time with a lot of distressed people, it's going to be overwhelming, and it's going to have a negative affect. So to answer my own question :P I am capable of being very empathetic. And it can be a great thing. I can sometimes help people. I can make them feel more seen. I bond with animals easily.

    It can also be a negative thing. Where I end up taking on negativity, not taking time to decompress myself, to let go of everything building up, and I break down or act out in some way. I have acted out on the forum several times after episodes of this, actually.

    I wouldn't want less empathy. But I do need to make sure I take proper care of myself and don't let myself get overwhelmed. Like, I need to realize that I have a limited, finite amount of energy. So perhaps I need to just be careful how I wield it.
    aka Janet Beattitudes, woman about town. Kicking ass and taking names meekly, with love and respect for her fellow humans.
    Likes ThisName liked this post

Similar Threads

  1. What Does Insecurity Mean To You?
    By Epiphany in forum General Psychology
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 03-27-2011, 12:05 AM
  2. [JCF] What does concrete mean to you?
    By Snow Turtle in forum The SJ Guardhouse (ESFJ, ISFJ, ESTJ, ISTJ)
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: 04-13-2009, 09:52 AM
  3. "Success" in a career--What does it mean to you?
    By ygolo in forum Academics and Careers
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 04-25-2008, 02:31 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO