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  1. #1
    Insane Visionary Kanra13's Avatar
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    Default Genderfluidity and the mystery of gender in general

    How does one understand the concept of gender-fluidity? Something of which I possess and having a male body felt only half correct, also at times desperately desiring to free myself from it and take a new form. Female. But at the same time, I don't always feel one way or the other, so no absolute change would satisfy me. What does the many think about it? What sense does it have in your heads? All too often I find it mixed up in this SJW bullcrap which I do not adhere to. I'm no over emotional nutbag trying to point fingers and flip when everyday people use wrong pronouns. God forbid. But still, it's such a bizarre thing. Also when undergoing a change your chromosomes are still the same so you aren't TECHNICALLY a different gender, or... sex I suppose... because it seems gender is all over the place and hard to concretely discern anymore. So what really makes our 'sex' then? Just what we 'feel'? We think therefore we are? The lack of clarity is rather annoying, and there's too many eggshells to usually hold a coherent conversation.

    My Thoery is pretty simple though. I use to be a female in a past life, at least that's what I've felt. As it feels familiar and personal. Maybe we aren't "born" in the wrong body just a different one and seek to return to our former state. Or maybe not.

    Still. I and many others suffer from dysphorias that are not logical(from known understanding) and blindly praised and encouraged or despised and mocked. Whichever it be. Usually two sides taking extreme stances and both try to step on each other. Like always.

    Life is pretty absurd

    I have my own absurdities, but I seek to grasp them somehow. Maybe if we grasp a greater understanding we can gain far more maturity and happiness over our existences and 'who we are'.
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    Regal Regime Tenebris's Avatar
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    Everyone has masculine and feminine traits. The whole gender theory is based around quantifying the different shades between these two core aspects of ourselves. Which I find ultimately pointless. One can have more masculine traits as female, or one can have female. One can have balance, or lack prominent traits. But it doesn't stop them from being classified as one or the other or (neutral) pertaining to a trait anyone can have and its not unique. People just need to accept who they are, instead of trying to define who they are based on superficial traits.
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  3. #3
    Void tea. Earl Grey's Avatar
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    BARGES THE FUCK IN

    HELLO KIDS SO WE HAVE WHAT IS CALLED GENDER NORMS, GENDER IDENTITY, AND GENDER PRESENTATION, AND NONE OF THEM OVERLAP

    IF YOUR GENDER IDENTITY IS NOT ALIGNED WITH YOUR SEX, YOU ARE TRANSGENDER, AND YOU WANT TO SWITCH YOUR GENITALS
    IF YOUR GENDER PRESENTATION IS NOT ALIGNED WITH YOUR SEX, YOU ARE A 'CROSSDRESSER', 'TOMBOY', 'METROSEXUAL', 'ANDROGYNOUS', ETC, BUT IT GOT NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU WANTING TO SWITCH UP YOUR GENITALS, IT'S JUST LITERALLY JUST WHAT YOU LOOK LIKE / HOW YOU DRESS AND DOESN'T CHANGE YOUR SEX/GENDER

    IF YOUR GENDER NORMS ARE NOT ALIGNED WITH SOCIETY, THEN FUCK SOCIETY
    Translation: Whoever thinks you become more/less a man/woman just by taking certain professions CAN GO F*** THEMSELVES, HOW DOES THAT EVEN MAKE ANY SENSE
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    Void tea. Earl Grey's Avatar
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    As for the common understanding of gender-fluidity, it has to with gender-identity. People who crossdress do not necessarily want to become a woman (or a man), if it goes to all the way to dysphoria (where you feel your physical body, your sex, does not match your perceived gender identity of 'who you are') then that's transgenderism.

    I don't quite know/understand how it works, it can probably only be explained by the persons themselves, but 'gender' is generally fluid and like in my previous post, has several angles to it. Gender presentation is fluid, I can wear a skirt, that does not make me a woman. I can wear it for a year or 5, and then never wear them again. Gender norms are fluid, in the sense that there are norms / expectations on the societal level of what a man or woman should be, and those things change over time. Gender identity is fluid, in that some people do not feel that they are the sex they are supposed to be (transgender).

    Try not get too confused in the labels or how people define them. Like in my above example, some people may misunderstand you as being a transgender just because you crossdress, and say you are transgender when you don't actually feel the dysphoria- some of the confusion lies there. It's more to an internal perceived gender identity rather than an external presentation. Doesn't matter how much a female CEO crossdresses or become masculine, if she does not feel she is a man (as opposed to just 'manly'), she is not a man. Look into if your concerns revolve around gender presentation (be it by how you behave or dress, etc), or if you do also have dysphoria surrounding your biological sex.
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  5. #5
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanra13 View Post
    How does one understand the concept of gender-fluidity? Something of which I possess and having a male body felt only half correct, also at times desperately desiring to free myself from it and take a new form. Female. But at the same time, I don't always feel one way or the other, so no absolute change would satisfy me. What does the many think about it? What sense does it have in your heads? All too often I find it mixed up in this SJW bullcrap which I do not adhere to. I'm no over emotional nutbag trying to point fingers and flip when everyday people use wrong pronouns. God forbid. But still, it's such a bizarre thing. Also when undergoing a change your chromosomes are still the same so you aren't TECHNICALLY a different gender, or... sex I suppose... because it seems gender is all over the place and hard to concretely discern anymore. So what really makes our 'sex' then? Just what we 'feel'? We think therefore we are? The lack of clarity is rather annoying, and there's too many eggshells to usually hold a coherent conversation.

    My Thoery is pretty simple though. I use to be a female in a past life, at least that's what I've felt. As it feels familiar and personal. Maybe we aren't "born" in the wrong body just a different one and seek to return to our former state. Or maybe not.
    I suppose this theory makes about as much sense as anything. Great thread topic, by the way. I have long wondered about this, as someone who has never identified especially strongly as female, but never felt the need or desire to be male, either. I am not bothered by having a female body, but I am bothered if anyone expects it to constrain my choices, preferences, interests, or character in any way. I have had thoughts similar to yours about those who have surgery - the chromosomes stay the same, and medicine is still unable to provide the functionality of the identified gender. On the one sense the physical changes seem cosmetic, but I am sure that would come across as incredibly trivializing to someone who actually experiences body disphoria. I will be interested to read what comments people have.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ixaerus View Post
    HELLO KIDS SO WE HAVE WHAT IS CALLED GENDER NORMS, GENDER IDENTITY, AND GENDER PRESENTATION, AND NONE OF THEM OVERLAP

    IF YOUR GENDER IDENTITY IS NOT ALIGNED WITH YOUR SEX, YOU ARE TRANSGENDER, AND YOU WANT TO SWITCH YOUR GENITALS
    IF YOUR GENDER PRESENTATION IS NOT ALIGNED WITH YOUR SEX, YOU ARE A 'CROSSDRESSER', 'TOMBOY', 'METROSEXUAL', 'ANDROGYNOUS', ETC, BUT IT GOT NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU WANTING TO SWITCH UP YOUR GENITALS, IT'S JUST LITERALLY JUST WHAT YOU LOOK LIKE / HOW YOU DRESS AND DOESN'T CHANGE YOUR SEX/GENDER

    IF YOUR GENDER NORMS ARE NOT ALIGNED WITH SOCIETY, THEN FUCK SOCIETY
    Translation: Whoever thinks you become more/less a man/woman just by taking certain professions CAN GO F*** THEMSELVES, HOW DOES THAT EVEN MAKE ANY SENSE
    I couldn't agree more with the last paragraph. The rest is a bit simplistic, though. Gender norms, identity, and presentation do overlap to greater or lesser extent, depending on the person. For instance: what is cross-dressing any more? I suppose if a man wears a dress, that's an example. If I wear button-down shirts and trousers to work, though - as I sometimes do - does that make me a cross-dresser, or only if I buy them in the men's department instead of the women's? Anything out there that men have access to, that men can do, I want to be able to do, too, without having to be a man. The reverse should also be the case.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...
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  6. #6
    Void tea. Earl Grey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I couldn't agree more with the last paragraph. The rest is a bit simplistic, though. Gender norms, identity, and presentation do overlap to greater or lesser extent, depending on the person. For instance: what is cross-dressing any more? I suppose if a man wears a dress, that's an example. If I wear button-down shirts and trousers to work, though - as I sometimes do - does that make me a cross-dresser, or only if I buy them in the men's department instead of the women's? Anything out there that men have access to, that men can do, I want to be able to do, too, without having to be a man. The reverse should also be the case.
    Exactly: that's where the icky line lies, and why I personally find gender norms and gender presentation to be highly irrelevant. They change with time: and are not necessarily telling of a person's identity, profession, skill level, etc. A woman wearing pants is no longer uncalled for or 'tomboyish', just normal. But, there are places where people (and society) still say shit like (especially in Asian countries) "Why are you wearing a man's shirt? Are you trying to be a man, you tomboy [derogatorily]? You're not a girl anymore, you are a boy. You should wear skirts." when that does not, should not matter at all. For the sake of understanding, however, this division is created; in order to clarify the difference where they do exist, especially for people like transgenders, transexuals. The distinction exists because in many places and by many others, they do exist, and are perpetuated, enforced.
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  7. #7
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ixaerus View Post
    Exactly: that's where the icky line lies, and why I personally find gender norms and gender presentation to be highly irrelevant. They change with time: and are not necessarily telling of a person's identity, profession, skill level, etc. A woman wearing pants is no longer uncalled for or 'tomboyish', just normal. But, there are places where people (and society) still say shit like (especially in Asian countries) "Why are you wearing a man's shirt? Are you trying to be a man, you tomboy [derogatorily]? You're not a girl anymore, you are a boy. You should wear skirts." when that does not, should not matter at all. For the sake of understanding, however, this division is created; in order to clarify the difference where they do exist, especially for people like transgenders, transexuals. The distinction exists because in many places and by many others, they do exist, and are perpetuated, enforced.
    There are also places, or there were, where women could be accorded all the rights and opportunities of men, by completely forsaking everything feminine and vowing to live their lives as men. That allowed them rights of inheritance, to be the "man of the family" and keep the family together in the absence of brothers. An extreme case of what I specified no one should have to do.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  8. #8
    Void tea. Earl Grey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    There are also places, or there were, where women could be accorded all the rights and opportunities of men, by completely forsaking everything feminine and vowing to live their lives as men. That allowed them rights of inheritance, to be the "man of the family" and keep the family together in the absence of brothers. An extreme case of what I specified no one should have to do.
    Whoa, that is quite interesting. I'd say this is an example of when gender presentation is enforced along with and gender norms. If you want my personal opinion, I think there should be no segregation; if a woman takes over a household and makes decisions, it is not by 'being a man' by 'gender identity/presentation'. Even the women themselves end up judging other women who are still women- because it is the masculinity that is elevated, some kind of inherent merit just by being a man. In my opinion, it must be seen and judged purely from the roles that they take (because that is what it is) and nothing to do with gender / sex. This is a strange way to take a step forward, but I recognize that it is effective and it is great that those women have a somewhat better option than they originally did, and that is what that society was able to do considering their norms at the time.
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  9. #9
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    OK, I'm just going to say that I dont think gender is fluid.

    I dont buy the whole non-binary carry on, it all strikes me as a form of madness if I'm entirely honest.

    The homogenising, uniformity of so much modern thinking is something I positively dislike, while formally stressing diversity and difference it all seems to promoting a terrible sort of androgyny.

    When I see stuff like this trending I just think its someone, consciously or unconsciously, ramping and amping up the cognitive dissonance that is being experienced, for a bunch of different reasons. However, for some at least, its no doubt trying their best to make things better or integrate fresh insights about how traditional perspectives might adversely effect people.

  10. #10
    Insane Visionary Kanra13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exolvuntur View Post
    Everyone has masculine and feminine traits. The whole gender theory is based around quantifying the different shades between these two core aspects of ourselves. Which I find ultimately pointless. One can have more masculine traits as female, or one can have female. One can have balance, or lack prominent traits. But it doesn't stop them from being classified as one or the other or (neutral) pertaining to a trait anyone can have and its not unique. People just need to accept who they are, instead of trying to define who they are based on superficial traits.
    It doesn't just feel like masculine and feminine traits to me... It feels very personal and I see myself as genuinely female in my head as well. When I'm in a more "feminine" state I feel my brain works more like one in that moment. I feel it, I see it, and I've dreamed it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ixaerus View Post
    As for the common understanding of gender-fluidity, it has to with gender-identity. People who crossdress do not necessarily want to become a woman (or a man), if it goes to all the way to dysphoria (where you feel your physical body, your sex, does not match your perceived gender identity of 'who you are') then that's transgenderism.

    I don't quite know/understand how it works, it can probably only be explained by the persons themselves, but 'gender' is generally fluid and like in my previous post, has several angles to it. Gender presentation is fluid, I can wear a skirt, that does not make me a woman. I can wear it for a year or 5, and then never wear them again. Gender norms are fluid, in the sense that there are norms / expectations on the societal level of what a man or woman should be, and those things change over time. Gender identity is fluid, in that some people do not feel that they are the sex they are supposed to be (transgender).

    Try not get too confused in the labels or how people define them. Like in my above example, some people may misunderstand you as being a transgender just because you crossdress, and say you are transgender when you don't actually feel the dysphoria- some of the confusion lies there. It's more to an internal perceived gender identity rather than an external presentation. Doesn't matter how much a female CEO crossdresses or become masculine, if she does not feel she is a man (as opposed to just 'manly'), she is not a man. Look into if your concerns revolve around gender presentation (be it by how you behave or dress, etc), or if you do also have dysphoria surrounding your biological sex.
    That reminds me. Cross dressing is interesting too. Like... Drag Queens. Apparently in 'Drag' you are to recognize and identify them as the opposite gender, or else it's "offensive". I was in formed of this, rather defensively, of course. When I had no intention of stepping on toes but it's rather easy.

    But yes, dress code's and stuff. Meh. I'm not totally sure. I've seen guys in full dresses before which is... a bit much to me. But if they like it they like it. My idea would be growing my hair out more fully and putting on makeup(female shirts are often nicer than male shirts too, same with shoes sometimes), since even if I can't physically be totally female... it's the closest I can get without undergoing a huge drastic change that I'd be chastised by my religious family over for it being wrong. As to the last part, it's kinda like... I do have dyphoria about my biological sex. I know I do. Sometimes it hurts terribly to know I'm in this body and can't experience being the other part of myself. But I also know it probably ain't worth it. Especially since their are those who will never recognize you as that sex/gender or whatever and just... consider you what you were born with. That we lie to ourselves. Maybe we do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I suppose this theory makes about as much sense as anything. Great thread topic, by the way. I have long wondered about this, as someone who has never identified especially strongly as female, but never felt the need or desire to be male, either. I am not bothered by having a female body, but I am bothered if anyone expects it to constrain my choices, preferences, interests, or character in any way. I have had thoughts similar to yours about those who have surgery - the chromosomes stay the same, and medicine is still unable to provide the functionality of the identified gender. On the one sense the physical changes seem cosmetic, but I am sure that would come across as incredibly trivializing to someone who actually experiences body dysphoria. I will be interested to read what comments people have.
    Yes and that's the thing. The chromosomes are the same so the fact isn't what they claim, at least in a very literal sense. I suppose that social stigma bothers me. But I suppose gender extends beyond and can be what we.. are within our minds. Which makes a certain sense, but I still dislike the "forced pronouns" and easily offended nature that often accompanies it all when we try to understand. I suffer from a dysphoria that I myself am actually trying to understand. It seems many don't try to they just expect everyone to accept it. But often in life, to accept things we must understand it.

    Yes, it would come off as trivializing but I won't say it's entirely inaccurate. In a way. I spoke with someone who thought it was cosmetic and like butchery to the body and lying to oneself of who they really are underneath. That it is traumatic and maybe sometimes it is? But who is she to say it is simply wrong and bad. And especially the fact it being from a "godly" point of view it kinda makes it bias. I can't imagine how others have felt she spoke that to that she refuses to recognize how they are now because her values supersede.

    But an INFx I spoke to was super open minded to gender neutrality, and expecting me to be very respectful about it. Her being gender neutral and having many friends who are. Totally used to that environment. We are formed by our environment are we not? To some level. But even my saying it don't make sense logically was taken a little defensively. Knowing I was similar yet I questioned it. Like why?

    Also the pronouns "they" or "them" which don't entirely make sense.

    So bringing this up can seem to be a touchy iffy subject. Leaving me in an awkward place taking no side, really. As I see both sides.
    "A life that lives without doing anything is the same as a slow death." - Lelouch Vi Britannia

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    How fascinating the mind is.


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