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Genderfluidity and the mystery of gender in general

Coriolis

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Blueprint: The Evolutionary Origins of a Good Society: Nicholas A. Christakis: 9780316230032: Amazon.com: Books

In the book it is shown that the only antidote to dictatorships or totalitarianism is the family unit. The stronger the family unit is, the less loyal a citizen is to the state. In fact, statistically speaking, it is shown in the book that monarchies, and other societies which involved strong central forces of power which comitted atrocities did so by eroding the family unit and that the energy spectrum between the family and the government is diametrically opposed and a zero sum game - mathematically proven in the book.

There are several ways to reach the same conclusion and traversing one path creates a dominoe affect where all others occur. Changing gender is one leverage point which could result in the others falling depending on the threshold.

I know it's a hard pill to swallow but the difference between us and Nazi germany is the strong family unit. Socities are 99.9 percent similar. We notice the variation but rest assured, there is a blueprint.

By changing the relationships between lovers, to disintegrate the the family unit, totalitarianism is established or moved towards. Two methods in the book are limiting or saturating gender, or limited or overstating sexuality.

By doing so, the one on one relationships required for the family unit disintegrate, and the state acquires enough power to enslave the citizens.

Book was written by a liberal.
Such conclusions are not demonstrable in any sort of scientific way. I am sure there are books by authors with equal expertise that demonstrate exactly the opposite. The family unit in Nazi Germany was highly encouraged, as a way to increase the population and train the next generation. Obviously that didn't stop dictatorship from arising. The kibbutzes in Palestine/Israel by contrast do not follow a traditional family model, but never led to dictatorship. This model is at best simplistic, at worst just plaiin wrong. In any case, family is not predicated on traditional notions of gender. Its functions and benefits can be realized with same sex couples, polyamorous families, single parents, transgender parents, etc. All a family requires is one or more adults in a loving, caring relationship with children, or others (e.g. elders). Even the 1950's sitcom "My Three Sons" had figured that one out. I for one am glad that we are no longer being so restrictive or limiting on what we consider "family".
 

Oberon

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Such conclusions are not demonstrable in any sort of scientific way. I am sure there are books by authors with equal expertise that demonstrate exactly the opposite. The family unit in Nazi Germany was highly encouraged, as a way to increase the population and train the next generation. Obviously that didn't stop dictatorship from arising. The kibbutzes in Palestine/Israel by contrast do not follow a traditional family model, but never led to dictatorship. This model is at best simplistic, at worst just plaiin wrong. In any case, family is not predicated on traditional notions of gender. Its functions and benefits can be realized with same sex couples, polyamorous families, single parents, transgender parents, etc. All a family requires is one or more adults in a loving, caring relationship with children, or others (e.g. elders). Even the 1950's sitcom "My Three Sons" had figured that one out. I for one am glad that we are no longer being so restrictive or limiting on what we consider "family".

The family unit was inverted in the opposite direction during Nazi Germany. Instead of polyamory, sexual repression was encouraged which results in sons turning against their father. That is the point, there is a balance.

There is definitely some hard science in this book. My claim that over appropriation of genders, under appropriation of genders, and sexuality - either too much or too little - as forces to destroy humanity by supporting totalitarianism regimes is not my own but rooted in academia.

I can see your point however, that this is no necessarily a universal eternal truth like gravity (gravity isn't either). But you must also see how I am not simply pulling something out of my butt

And I am sure there are other types of family units that could develop which would expand our capacity for sustaining certain levels of polyamory and increased gender diversification. But are we there yet? I don't know and I would not bet against history for teh moment. We think that we're going to fly to mars and build teleporters but we really haven't advanced too much in the last 100 years...at least not as much as from 1920 to 1950.
 

Domino

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Wait now, hold up, hold up. How in the actual hell did the OP’s confession about feeling gender dysphoria get sidetracked into Nazism and ‘traditional family unit’ talk? Rhetorical, no answer required.

To the OP, hello, I’m Dom, I’m not new here but gone awhile, and I liked your post for its honesty and need to question. Just my view, but as I’ve gotten older, the nature of my relationship to my body has drastically altered through experience and bodily maturity. I largely identify as straight and female, but the right girl most definitely turns my head in a sexual way. A long term female friend recently let me know she wanted to roll with me sometime, and my twin wasn’t surprised (I was!). I left the friend’s house saturated and pleasantly buzzing from her energy.

Sis has told me on many occasions that my FE-primary nature moves ahead of me like a wave of heat (which can be both good and bad). She’s got a lot of ‘feminine’ energy and says I have a lot of ‘male’ energy. I strongly relate to male characters deep in my body, not just my mind. I find bi-sexual men extremely attractive because they’re more accepting of my aggressive yin energy. I see a LOT of myself in Loki and he makes my brain less nonsensical? (That may not be a word 😟)

I’m very very proud of Gen Y/Millenials for being so open and accepting of each other’s needs and bodies in ways I rarely saw as a Gen Xer. Being able to say “I feel this way, and I’m confused, but this is me and does anyone relate?” is a such a wonderful change from how things were.

Things may fall into line as the years pass. I know I haven’t stopped surprising myself and I’ll be 42 in April.
 

cascadeco

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I admit my personal bias is such that I find all of the recent years' push towards all of these different labels and means of identification strange and, well, kind of pointless? That's my bias though.

It's really no different in my opinion from things like personality theory, though. To explain: In one light it's the dumbest thing in the world to focus on personality theories and try to figure out which box to put oneself in - as the boxes can't encapsulate a full person (or most of the time can't), and one has to ask oneself why they are trying to find a place in the first place. Similarly, it seems there's such a recent push to try to figure out which of 15 (or whatever) gender/sexual 'boxes' one actually relates to. So lots of emphasis has been placed on this and on identifying with one thing or another.

To me they are basically the same thing -- many or most people have a strong desire and sometimes need to find means of relating to one another, to find out where they 'fit' and to feel less alone in the world, for there to be some compelling 'reason' or truth or proof for why they are the way they are and not another way... thus it's natural to gravitate towards trying to find some means of self identification and thus relation with others. It can create a sense of wholeness or 'ok'-ness, the act of identifying as some such thing and finding others who feel the same. There can be benefits to this.. but in the larger picture I'm not sure it really matters. iow recently we're probably just seeing all of these labels being created to try to encapsulate what's probably always existed. I'm not sure the labels are terribly 'useful' or meaningful in a big context, but.. I guess I can see the psychological/sociological drive even if I may not personally relate to elements of this specifically (though I understand the larger psychology-based need, and of course the fact there are some very hard and fast preferences with a lot of gray in between) or whatever.
 

Virtual ghost

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For me gender measures with genitals and therefore I fail to see how this is a fluid issue. How you feel about your gender and yourself is a different pair of shoes in my book.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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To me, I think all of this stuff is important step toward greater personal freedom. I may not understand all of it, but I don't need to, because it's not my life. I can't really see how it harms anyone unless you happen to believe that God is going to punish us collectively, Old Testament style, for being too permissive about it. Which is not my view.
 

Kanra Jest

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Wait now, hold up, hold up. How in the actual hell did the OP’s confession about feeling gender dysphoria get sidetracked into Nazism and ‘traditional family unit’ talk? Rhetorical, no answer required.

To the OP, hello, I’m Dom, I’m not new here but gone awhile, and I liked your post for its honesty and need to question. Just my view, but as I’ve gotten older, the nature of my relationship to my body has drastically altered through experience and bodily maturity. I largely identify as straight and female, but the right girl most definitely turns my head in a sexual way. A long term female friend recently let me know she wanted to roll with me sometime, and my twin wasn’t surprised (I was!). I left the friend’s house saturated and pleasantly buzzing from her energy.

Sis has told me on many occasions that my FE-primary nature moves ahead of me like a wave of heat (which can be both good and bad). She’s got a lot of ‘feminine’ energy and says I have a lot of ‘male’ energy. I strongly relate to male characters deep in my body, not just my mind. I find bi-sexual men extremely attractive because they’re more accepting of my aggressive yin energy. I see a LOT of myself in Loki and he makes my brain less nonsensical? (That may not be a word 😟)

I’m very very proud of Gen Y/Millenials for being so open and accepting of each other’s needs and bodies in ways I rarely saw as a Gen Xer. Being able to say “I feel this way, and I’m confused, but this is me and does anyone relate?” is a such a wonderful change from how things were.

Things may fall into line as the years pass. I know I haven’t stopped surprising myself and I’ll be 42 in April.

Nazism. xD Ikr

Hello, Dom. This is meant as an honest speculation rather than an assertion of rightness like others might be, so yes. Appreciate the recognition on that. Yeah, sexuality and gender identity I imagine can also influence eachother or bring out oddities and wonder too. I love to roleplay online as female characters in games and sometimes flirt with guys, and have even felt genuinely effected by it when they respond. It's just a game, but it's a way I can play that female role and get a buzz. Since it's not just a troll, but another honest exploration. Or my last ex who acknowledged that side of me. And yeah, about energy I've been assumed physically the opposite of what I am online, even if I'm not trying to come off that way, because of my more "feminine energy" I give off. I kinda have both but I find it interesting. I also strongly relate to some characters, Loki being one but in a much less feely way, more in his playful silver tongue persona. But I've also related to Chloe from Life is Strange Before the Storm more personally (before she went full punk crazy anyway) because I use to be a lot like that. Otherwise a bit naive, joking but having moments of serious angst, sensitive but could definitely hold her own in verbal wit. Life experiences. Albeit less extreme. Her awkward first romance. And I feel I can identify with her female appearance and style a lot. So I know what you mean.

Yeah, it seems not just we, but society just keeps on evolving and it's quite fascinating :)

I admit my personal bias is such that I find all of the recent years' push towards all of these different labels and means of identification strange and, well, kind of pointless? That's my bias though.

It's really no different in my opinion from things like personality theory, though. To explain: In one light it's the dumbest thing in the world to focus on personality theories and try to figure out which box to put oneself in - as the boxes can't encapsulate a full person (or most of the time can't), and one has to ask oneself why they are trying to find a place in the first place. Similarly, it seems there's such a recent push to try to figure out which of 15 (or whatever) gender/sexual 'boxes' one actually relates to. So lots of emphasis has been placed on this and on identifying with one thing or another.

To me they are basically the same thing -- many or most people have a strong desire and sometimes need to find means of relating to one another, to find out where they 'fit' and to feel less alone in the world, for there to be some compelling 'reason' or truth or proof for why they are the way they are and not another way... thus it's natural to gravitate towards trying to find some means of self identification and thus relation with others. It can create a sense of wholeness or 'ok'-ness, the act of identifying as some such thing and finding others who feel the same. There can be benefits to this.. but in the larger picture I'm not sure it really matters. iow recently we're probably just seeing all of these labels being created to try to encapsulate what's probably always existed. I'm not sure the labels are terribly 'useful' or meaningful in a big context, but.. I guess I can see the psychological/sociological drive even if I may not personally relate to elements of this specifically (though I understand the larger psychology-based need, and of course the fact there are some very hard and fast preferences with a lot of gray in between) or whatever.

I understand this. I guess. But I'm the type of person who needs to know how to explain just about everything in life. It needs to have some form of understanding rather than just saying "I'm me!" and that's that. I don't like that because there's no explanation. I guess it's my Ti and 4 influence. But it's also true no system is perfect and no system perfectly explains everything, generally they are guides or skeletons, and that's ok. Like.. If I bend the system a bit then I'm easily xNTp with j tendencies. Especially since this "lack of goals" I keep hearing with NTP's but I'm very goal oriented(but it seems more common with 3's). Labels exist in everything and always will exist for without that we would have no understanding. I suppose our brains usually require at least some form of tangibility. As for gender fluidity. Well, idk, it's just very personal and means a lot to me. I like to experience the female I just feel within when I can. And I don't fully understand it but my way of understanding a concept is for it to have a name and definition in the first place, and then pick that apart and see if one can obtain a 'whole' from it.

To me, I think all of this stuff is important step toward greater personal freedom. I may not understand all of it, but I don't need to, because it's not my life. I can't really see how it harms anyone unless you happen to believe that God is going to punish us collectively, Old Testament style, for being too permissive about it. Which is not my view.

I use to think God was gonna do that. I use to be taught it was wrong. Still sorta am. But I don't believe it anymore. And yeah, personal freedom of inner expression is probably what it is.
 

Mole

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And yeah, personal freedom of inner expression is probably what it is.

The book is dead, the God of the Book is dead, the literate individual is dead, so personal freedom of inner expression is dead, replaced by electronic tribes in the global village.

But we still drive forward looking in the rear vision mirror at personal freedom of inner expression, while shared emotional engagement is rushing towards us through the windshield.

Personal freedom of inner expression is no longer risky, but is now a warm and comfortable nostalgia.
 

Kanra Jest

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The book is dead, the God of the Book is dead, the literate individual is dead, so personal freedom of inner expression is dead, replaced by electronic tribes in the global village.

But we still drive forward looking in the rear vision mirror at personal freedom of inner expression, while shared emotional engagement is rushing towards us through the windshield.

Personal freedom of inner expression is no longer risky, but is now a warm and comfortable nostalgia.

Your ceaseless riddles are always welcome.
 

Mole

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Your ceaseless riddles are always welcome.

The printing press was invented in 1440 giving rise to the book and the literate individual, and the electric telegraph was invented in 1840 giving rise to electronic tribes in the global village.

We are moving from the phonetic alphabet to electronic images.

And we seek comfort in nostalgia.
 

Domino

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Nazism. xD Ikr

Hello, Dom. This is meant as an honest speculation rather than an assertion of rightness like others might be, so yes. Appreciate the recognition on that. Yeah, sexuality and gender identity I imagine can also influence eachother or bring out oddities and wonder too. I love to roleplay online as female characters in games and sometimes flirt with guys, and have even felt genuinely effected by it when they respond. It's just a game, but it's a way I can play that female role and get a buzz. Since it's not just a troll, but another honest exploration. Or my last ex who acknowledged that side of me. And yeah, about energy I've been assumed physically the opposite of what I am online, even if I'm not trying to come off that way, because of my more "feminine energy" I give off. I kinda have both but I find it interesting. I also strongly relate to some characters, Loki being one but in a much less feely way, more in his playful silver tongue persona. But I've also related to Chloe from Life is Strange Before the Storm more personally (before she went full punk crazy anyway) because I use to be a lot like that. Otherwise a bit naive, joking but having moments of serious angst, sensitive but could definitely hold her own in verbal wit. Life experiences. Albeit less extreme. Her awkward first romance. And I feel I can identify with her female appearance and style a lot. So I know what you mean.

It really makes me happy to hear things like this. As a female mechanic, I spent an inordinate amount of time fighting off alpha males and misogynists trying to physically lay hands on me or attempt to verbally reduce me/“take me down a notch”. I liked open-minded playful guys with a strong sense of self and humor, and that was regrettably in short supply no matter where I went.

On my breaks, I would sit on one of the bulldozers and eat my chips and imagine each redneck wearing dog collars and eyeliner. My punk hair and clothes drew out at least one country ‘freak’ who started wearing his earrings and NIN shirts again (we became close friends). I didn’t understand why liking something other ppl might not was such a problem, but I was just beginning to see the effects of toxic gender ideals/rigid masculinity on those around me. It was very ugly and unnecessary and disappointing. I remember a guy I knew half-jokingly bought me spurs for my birthday and that was considered ‘out there’ - a guy giving a girl spurs was such a gender flip and extremely suggestive by 1990s standards. Millennials give me hope that ppl will be able live their lives without being shamed into silence about it, esp when they aren’t breaking any laws.

This is why I’m attracted to bisexual guys. Not a whole lot fazes them, and homophobia is such a huge fucking turn-off for me. FFS I don’t want to hear another man talk about watching lesbians kiss each other. *massive eye roll*

We’re living in exciting times. Things are changing. We rebel scum must continue the rebellion. There’s still a chance that we can save ourselves and the environment from bigots and psychopaths.
 

Kanra Jest

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It really makes me happy to hear things like this. As a female mechanic, I spent an inordinate amount of time fighting off alpha males and misogynists trying to physically lay hands on me or attempt to verbally reduce me/“take me down a notch”. I liked open-minded playful guys with a strong sense of self and humor, and that was regrettably in short supply no matter where I went.

On my breaks, I would sit on one of the bulldozers and eat my chips and imagine each redneck wearing dog collars and eyeliner. My punk hair and clothes drew out at least one country ‘freak’ who started wearing his earrings and NIN shirts again (we became close friends). I didn’t understand why liking something other ppl might not was such a problem, but I was just beginning to see the effects of toxic gender ideals/rigid masculinity on those around me. It was very ugly and unnecessary and disappointing. I remember a guy I knew half-jokingly bought me spurs for my birthday and that was considered ‘out there’ - a guy giving a girl spurs was such a gender flip and extremely suggestive by 1990s standards. Millennials give me hope that ppl will be able live their lives without being shamed into silence about it, esp when they aren’t breaking any laws.

This is why I’m attracted to bisexual guys. Not a whole lot fazes them, and homophobia is such a huge fucking turn-off for me. FFS I don’t want to hear another man talk about watching lesbians kiss each other. *massive eye roll*

We’re living in exciting times. Things are changing. We rebel scum must continue the rebellion. There’s still a chance that we can save ourselves and the environment from bigots and psychopaths.

Mysogynists and Alpha Males. Ahhh yep. They're everywhere.

Funny how one differing from the norm can inspire another. But without that they may have remained hidden and unexpressed because of outdated concepts and societal pressures.

That is all we must do. Live our life, continue to shape and effect and change things for the better! Inspiring concept and idea, of which I fully support! Rebellion is what changes tradition, casting aside what is no longer useful for new and profound understandings. :) We have a long way to go still, but as long as we are still breathing and there are all these open minds amidst the closed stagnancy, even an ounce of hope can make a difference. And I believe we must constantly evolve if we are to survive.

Kinda interesting that spurrs use to be so big back then. I was a late 90's kid so I don't remember much other than the amazing cartoons that were on(that are better than 99% of what's on nowadays).
 

The Cat

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How does one understand the concept of gender-fluidity? Something of which I possess and having a male body felt only half correct, also at times desperately desiring to free myself from it and take a new form. Female. But at the same time, I don't always feel one way or the other, so no absolute change would satisfy me. What does the many think about it? What sense does it have in your heads? All too often I find it mixed up in this SJW bullcrap which I do not adhere to. I'm no over emotional nutbag trying to point fingers and flip when everyday people use wrong pronouns. God forbid. But still, it's such a bizarre thing. Also when undergoing a change your chromosomes are still the same so you aren't TECHNICALLY a different gender, or... sex I suppose... because it seems gender is all over the place and hard to concretely discern anymore. So what really makes our 'sex' then? Just what we 'feel'? We think therefore we are? The lack of clarity is rather annoying, and there's too many eggshells to usually hold a coherent conversation.

My Thoery is pretty simple though. I use to be a female in a past life, at least that's what I've felt. As it feels familiar and personal. Maybe we aren't "born" in the wrong body just a different one and seek to return to our former state. Or maybe not.

Still. I and many others suffer from dysphorias that are not logical(from known understanding) and blindly praised and encouraged or despised and mocked. Whichever it be. Usually two sides taking extreme stances and both try to step on each other. Like always.

Life is pretty absurd

I have my own absurdities, but I seek to grasp them somehow. Maybe if we grasp a greater understanding we can gain far more maturity and happiness over our existences and 'who we are'.

I can certainly relate. To a lot of this beyond the bolded and italicized. Accepting the mystery has been a big help. Realizing that I dont have the understanding I'd like, and just sort of like letting it go. BDD complicates things. But sometimes I wonder if part of that is like the set in stone gender roles that seem such a big deal to so many people, aggressively so, that if you actually dont fit the commonly accepted narrative; suddenly its like you're not a person, and maybe you never have been, you're an objectified ideal to either be put upon a pedestal or cast down. You are a subject of debate. You're state of being is something for others to discuss, vote upon, and judge. Your identity, your validity, your... legality. It's a lot to try and sift through, without all the external difficulties. but with them, yeah, I am amazed anyone ever is able to get resolution from it. But it does happen...

I suppose...

I hope.....​


...fuck.​
 

Coriolis

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I can certainly relate. To a lot of this beyond the bolded and italicized. Accepting the mystery has been a big help. Realizing that I dont have the understanding I'd like, and just sort of like letting it go. BDD complicates things. But sometimes I wonder if part of that is like the set in stone gender roles that seem such a big deal to so many people, aggressively so, that if you actually dont fit the commonly accepted narrative; suddenly its like you're not a person, and maybe you never have been, you're an objectified ideal to either be put upon a pedestal or cast down. You are a subject of debate. You're state of being is something for others to discuss, vote upon, and judge. Your identity, your validity, your... legality. It's a lot to try and sift through, without all the external difficulties. but with them, yeah, I am amazed anyone ever is able to get resolution from it. But it does happen...
I have often wondered about the highlighted. I have never fit established gender roles, at least not female ones. In many respects, I fit male ones. I suppose in some sense my life might be easier or at least more consistent with (others') expectations if I were a guy, but I have never had any BDD. The fact that I have a female body has never bothered me. To me, it is as much a non-issue as my hair color or hand preference. I shouldn't have to be physically male to do and be all those things that are important and fulfilling to me, but are usually associated with guys. That is how I have lived my life, and for the most part, I have run into very little opposition.
 

Cellmold

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People exaggerate tendencies & then sift them down to the bare essentials.

This both excludes the outliers and misrepresents the complexity of the natural world. Yet, in another direction, it's also unwise to throw out all gender with regards to biological inherency.

I'd say the answer lies in that 'between-ness' and that people largely object to assumptions being made about their capability, character and potential. When something is talked about 'on average' it may be broadly correct, even with regards to gender. But the issue is not that there may be a degree of ontology in genetic and gender makeup, but that people who don't understand the nuances within that understanding tend to turn to absolutes for cognitive convenience.
The nature of our species towards noticing patterns is only as good as the quality of the individual who notices the pattern. So we notice obvious extremes more than subtle ones & leave out what we cannot comprehend or deal with because it makes decision making easier. In modern bureaucracy this is habitually undertaken for the smooth running of reality; at the expense of the outlier.

Conversely, I do see people playing power with words and enforcing an emotive self-righteous content onto a situation in order to manipulate or influence those around them, so there is another side to this difficulty (as there often is).

My own position is based on individual interaction, i.e. do I trust or detect that the person is sincere enough in motivation to acquiesce to a request for something like a particular pronoun? In the vast majority of cases it is probably a yes, but social interaction is chaotic in nature and any guidelines for interaction are rough at best.

And then there is genuine prejudice, where a person has let the neuroticism of their experiences win (albeit, often temporarily), and they see only the abstraction of their own pains.

That's a different kind of cognitive convenience and far more destructive.
 

Coriolis

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People exaggerate tendencies & then sift them down to the bare essentials.

This both excludes the outliers and misrepresents the complexity of the natural world. Yet, in another direction, it's also unwise to throw out all gender with regards to biological inherency.

I'd say the answer lies in that 'between-ness' and that people largely object to assumptions being made about their capability, character and potential. When something is talked about 'on average' it may be broadly correct, even with regards to gender. But the issue is not that there may be a degree of ontology in genetic and gender makeup, but that people who don't understand the nuances within that understanding tend to turn to absolutes for cognitive convenience.
The nature of our species towards noticing patterns is only as good as the quality of the individual who notices the pattern. So we notice obvious extremes more than subtle ones & leave out what we cannot comprehend or deal with because it makes decision making easier. In modern bureaucracy this is habitually undertaken for the smooth running of reality; at the expense of the outlier.
The issues I see fall into two categories. The first, to which you allude, is the idea that inherent gender difference are indeed statistical averages, and may not describe many/most individuals very well. The second is that even differences which are fairly categorical do not support most of the conclusions which they are used to justify. For example: it may be easy to establish that men almost universally have more of chemical A in their bodies than women, or that women have better connections between certain portions of the brain. Connecting those differences to behavior, preferences, etc. however is another matter entirely and rarely supportable.
 

Cellmold

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The issues I see fall into two categories. The first, to which you allude, is the idea that inherent gender difference are indeed statistical averages, and may not describe many/most individuals very well. The second is that even differences which are fairly categorical do not support most of the conclusions which they are used to justify. For example: it may be easy to establish that men almost universally have more of chemical A in their bodies than women, or that women have better connections between certain portions of the brain. Connecting those differences to behavior, preferences, etc. however is another matter entirely and rarely supportable.

This is the issue with a potentially infinite reality.

Drawing increasingly finer lines can become very chaotic. But yeah, it's very easy to trick or influence perception and preconceived notions are difficult to dislodge, there's a requirement (there) of constant vigilance.

That's probably an unfortunate (not necessarily justifiable) consequence of how we make decisions; cutting out extraneous information in order to create a more manageable and decisive reality. People are always going to put behaviour to the patterns that suit their purposes.
 
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