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  1. #21
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    If unintended consequences had a wiki I'd link it.

    Also avoidable suffering.

    And Predictable Consequences.
    I have no idea what this even has to do with my post, quoted here.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I have no idea what this even has to do with my post, quoted here.
    I'll let you think about it, I can recommend you a book too, if you like to read. I dont know if you do.

    Oppression and Liberty (Routledge Classics): Amazon.co.uk: Simone Weil: 9780415254076: Amazon.co.uk:

    Its a very good book.

    Although ignore my review, I wrote that years ago and havent been able to check my reviews as easily because Amazon changed the way that reviewers are able to look over their reviews post-composition, I used to edit reviews when I had read the book a couple of times or if my opinions changed (you know for the content which can be considered more opinion than simple description) but its less easy these days. Sometimes I decide just to leave them how they are because they are what they are.

    Anyway, its the book, not the review that matters. Its a short read. Like I say its a good one, good for perspective on questions like this.

  3. #23
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I'll let you think about it, I can recommend you a book too, if you like to read. I dont know if you do.

    Oppression and Liberty (Routledge Classics): Amazon.co.uk: Simone Weil: 9780415254076: Amazon.co.uk:

    Its a very good book.
    Sorry, I have more pressing things to think about than trying to decipher the opinions of someone who cannot be bothered to explain them. Reading a book is not a substitute for being told directly what you think. I do like to read, but similarly have quite a few other books in the queue.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  4. #24
    Shadow Sovereign Sung Jin-Woo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    When "the world" insists each individual must fit within some narrowly defined role based on biology (or anything else, really), and penalizes those who do not, that requires too much bending on the part of individuals. Such expectations are unhealthy and counterproductive, and it reasonable to work for their removal.
    Yeah, and its also generally things like these that never actually change to be how you want them to be. Because you either die first, or society collapses. So even if its a bit cynical or counter productive on the individual's level. Its more practical then telling someone to change the world if they don't like an aspect of society.
    “No matter how much we ask after the truth, self-awareness is often unpleasant. We do not feel kindly toward the Truthsayer.”
    ― Frank Herbert, God Emperor of Dune

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exolvuntur View Post
    Yeah, and its also generally things like these that never actually change to be how you want them to be. Because you either die first, or society collapses. So even if its a bit cynical or counter productive on the individual's level. Its more practical then telling someone to change the world if they don't like an aspect of society.
    If you break that down a little, like what's meant by "the world"?

    I would understand by that the majority of humankind for the majority of human history, which has been a good thing, if it was not then we would not even be in a position to discuss the fortunes or misfortunes of individuals who feel socially excluded in the first place.

    I'm all for an inclusive society but lets not disrupt that. Spreading the personal misery, which was once the preserve of a few, to everyone, making it universal, does absolutely nothing what so ever to improve the lot of the original individuals and minorities who felt socially excluded in the first place. It could, in fact its likely to, have adverse consequences for them.

    Its a real thing that there ARE evils and unavoidable suffering in the world, that is absolutely real. Sometimes it requires some individual adaptation and adjustment. I personally do not see that individual adaptation and adjustment to always be a bad thing. It could be difficult for the individual and there's lots of grounds to discuss what is and isnt simply conformity/conformism. Whether or not there is room to accommodate differences (including differences of opinion). However, its still a thing.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Sorry, I have more pressing things to think about than trying to decipher the opinions of someone who cannot be bothered to explain them. Reading a book is not a substitute for being told directly what you think. I do like to read, but similarly have quite a few other books in the queue.
    Well, maybe one day you'll be more open to different opinions than what you are today. I'm sure, barring some kind of censorship campaign, good discussions of the difference between avoidable and unavoidable suffering will still be around by then.

  7. #27
    Shadow Sovereign Sung Jin-Woo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    If you break that down a little, like what's meant by "the world"?

    I would understand by that the majority of humankind for the majority of human history, which has been a good thing, if it was not then we would not even be in a position to discuss the fortunes or misfortunes of individuals who feel socially excluded in the first place.

    I'm all for an inclusive society but lets not disrupt that. Spreading the personal misery, which was once the preserve of a few, to everyone, making it universal, does absolutely nothing what so ever to improve the lot of the original individuals and minorities who felt socially excluded in the first place. It could, in fact its likely to, have adverse consequences for them.

    Its a real thing that there ARE evils and unavoidable suffering in the world, that is absolutely real. Sometimes it requires some individual adaptation and adjustment. I personally do not see that individual adaptation and adjustment to always be a bad thing. It could be difficult for the individual and there's lots of grounds to discuss what is and isnt simply conformity/conformism. Whether or not there is room to accommodate differences (including differences of opinion). However, its still a thing.
    A person's world is the society they live in. So like America, or Saudi Arabia. When you say change society to match you, to some people that means dying for a cause that you won't see the fruition of. Since most real change happens little by little over many generations. So even if you still want to fight for change, it will be a life long battle. Some risking way more then their emotions in the process.

    I don't disagree with your post.
    “No matter how much we ask after the truth, self-awareness is often unpleasant. We do not feel kindly toward the Truthsayer.”
    ― Frank Herbert, God Emperor of Dune

  8. #28
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Well, maybe one day you'll be more open to different opinions than what you are today. I'm sure, barring some kind of censorship campaign, good discussions of the difference between avoidable and unavoidable suffering will still be around by then.
    Please. There's nothing more annoying than someone who thinks an "argument" is dumping a book link or a provocative one-liner into a post. (and I saw you even agreed with me on this, in a different thread.) It's not about censorship or not being open, it's about some people scanning as lazy and demanding more investment from others than what they seem willing to offer themselves.

    If someone wants to discuss something and they feel a book is worth reading, please summarize the points in the book that are valuable, to at least better reflect what they thought was good. Just because someone can name drop a bunch of book titles says nothing about the quality of his or her reasoning on the matter nor is it actually authentically engaging in "discussion."
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft
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  9. #29
    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    There are also places, or there were, where women could be accorded all the rights and opportunities of men, by completely forsaking everything feminine and vowing to live their lives as men. That allowed them rights of inheritance, to be the "man of the family" and keep the family together in the absence of brothers. An extreme case of what I specified no one should have to do.
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

  10. #30
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totenkindly View Post
    Please. There's nothing more annoying than someone who thinks an "argument" is dumping a book link or a provocative one-liner into a post. (and I saw you even agreed with me on this, in a different thread.) It's not about censorship or not being open, it's about some people scanning as lazy and demanding more investment from others than what they seem willing to offer themselves.

    If someone wants to discuss something and they feel a book is worth reading, please summarize the points in the book that are valuable, to at least better reflect what they thought was good. Just because someone can name drop a bunch of book titles says nothing about the quality of his or her reasoning on the matter nor is it actually authentically engaging in "discussion."
    The book is dead and is now the content of the net.

    And ironically when a medium dies, it raises in status. So since its death the status of the book has risen. A book is now a status signal. I myself regularly signal my high status by providing a link to a book. Of course I do not expect anyone to read the book, and only the naive would do so, I do though expect them to be impressed by my high status.

    Unfortunately for the barely literate, the only way to beat high status, is by a higher status book link.

    Just click on Understanding media: The extensions of man - Centre for Communication and Social Change - The University of Queensland, Australia

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