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  1. #11
    Insane Visionary Kanra13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    OK, I'm just going to say that I dont think gender is fluid.

    I dont buy the whole non-binary carry on, it all strikes me as a form of madness if I'm entirely honest.

    The homogenising, uniformity of so much modern thinking is something I positively dislike, while formally stressing diversity and difference it all seems to promoting a terrible sort of androgyny.

    When I see stuff like this trending I just think its someone, consciously or unconsciously, ramping and amping up the cognitive dissonance that is being experienced, for a bunch of different reasons. However, for some at least, its no doubt trying their best to make things better or integrate fresh insights about how traditional perspectives might adversely effect people.
    I won't take a side. But it's interesting how some do. . You seem pretty opinionated. So, can you elaborate on what you mean? What traditional insights? Cognitive dissonance?

    I will say there's a lot of 'acceptance movements' lately
    "A life that lives without doing anything is the same as a slow death." - Lelouch Vi Britannia

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  2. #12
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ixaerus View Post
    IF YOUR GENDER IDENTITY IS NOT ALIGNED WITH YOUR SEX, YOU ARE TRANSGENDER, AND YOU WANT TO SWITCH YOUR GENITALS
    IF YOUR GENDER PRESENTATION IS NOT ALIGNED WITH YOUR SEX, YOU ARE A 'CROSSDRESSER', 'TOMBOY', 'METROSEXUAL', 'ANDROGYNOUS', ETC, BUT IT GOT NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU WANTING TO SWITCH UP YOUR GENITALS, IT'S JUST LITERALLY JUST WHAT YOU LOOK LIKE / HOW YOU DRESS AND DOESN'T CHANGE YOUR SEX/GENDER
    Too simplistic. I'm on my way home from a gender conference and I also a have a genderqueer kid, and while there were stronger definitions when I was younger, now there's a lot more fluidity. Transgender folks don't even agree on the terms (transgender, transsexual, transman, transwoman, and so forth), and not every transgender person wants to switch their genitals. Consider it the same opening of the range that came in when you now had pansexualism and other variations rather than variations based on the binary.

    I agree with the gist well enough, though. People quite often confused gender roles with gender identity and and bio gender/assignations and whatever else and try to conflate them. it's because they are related on some level or one can contribute to another -- but they aren't identical.

    IF YOUR GENDER NORMS ARE NOT ALIGNED WITH SOCIETY, THEN FUCK SOCIETY
    Translation: Whoever thinks you become more/less a man/woman just by taking certain professions CAN GO F*** THEMSELVES, HOW DOES THAT EVEN MAKE ANY SENSE
    Generally, fuck society because people are who they are . Unfortunately, when society is strong enough to fuck you back (and until society changes enough to accommodate you), you'd better be prepared to take it in return. Only the strong survive because some parts of society suck ass right now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ixaerus View Post
    Exactly: that's where the icky line lies, and why I personally find gender norms and gender presentation to be highly irrelevant. They change with time: and are not necessarily telling of a person's identity, profession, skill level, etc. A woman wearing pants is no longer uncalled for or 'tomboyish', just normal. But, there are places where people (and society) still say shit like (especially in Asian countries) "Why are you wearing a man's shirt? Are you trying to be a man, you tomboy [derogatorily]? You're not a girl anymore, you are a boy. You should wear skirts." when that does not, should not matter at all. For the sake of understanding, however, this division is created; in order to clarify the difference where they do exist, especially for people like transgenders, transexuals. The distinction exists because in many places and by many others, they do exist, and are perpetuated, enforced.
    Yeah, that kind of thinking about gender (based on profession and clothing styles) seems to be the least thoughtful on someone's part about what gender is. (I mean that person, not you.) It's the most superficial aspect of gender categorization and discussion, as you say, for one just because styles and profession change over time and culture -- they're not reflective / enduring, external rather than reflective of the psychological state.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft
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  3. #13
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanra13 View Post
    It doesn't just feel like masculine and feminine traits to me... It feels very personal and I see myself as genuinely female in my head as well. When I'm in a more "feminine" state I feel my brain works more like one in that moment. I feel it, I see it, and I've dreamed it.

    That reminds me. Cross dressing is interesting too. Like... Drag Queens. Apparently in 'Drag' you are to recognize and identify them as the opposite gender, or else it's "offensive". I was in formed of this, rather defensively, of course. When I had no intention of stepping on toes but it's rather easy.
    Well, the difficulty is that not everyone has the same expectation, so having 'rules' doesn't necessarily help. There can be rule of thumbs, but the only way to really know what a certain individual expects from you for sure is to ask them and be willing to self-correct in the moment.

    But yes, dress code's and stuff. Meh. I'm not totally sure. I've seen guys in full dresses before which is... a bit much to me. But if they like it they like it. My idea would be growing my hair out more fully and putting on makeup(female shirts are often nicer than male shirts too, same with shoes sometimes), since even if I can't physically be totally female... it's the closest I can get without undergoing a huge drastic change that I'd be chastised by my religious family over for it being wrong. As to the last part, it's kinda like... I do have dyphoria about my biological sex. I know I do. Sometimes it hurts terribly to know I'm in this body and can't experience being the other part of myself. But I also know it probably ain't worth it. Especially since their are those who will never recognize you as that sex/gender or whatever and just... consider you what you were born with. That we lie to ourselves. Maybe we do.
    We all live with whatever we are able to live with. Our decisions always are based on, well, a prioritization and then a choice. (Your paragraph includes a number of prioritizations, for example.) We decide what is most important to us and what we can live with compared to cost/risk, then live accordingly. Sometimes our prioritizations change over time, sometimes not. But it definitely shows why we need to be very honest with ourselves, so that we can make the best decision at the best time for ourselves.

    As mentioned in my other post, in the end, "fuck society." this isn't society's life, and this isn't the religious family's life, and no one else can decide what you truly need and what leaves you feeling the most you, and others will always be glad to tell you what they think you are and how you need to live to make THEM happy. In the end, it's your life from birth to death and you need to decide how it best needs to be lived; you don't get a trophy after you die for living according to society's decisions for you.

    At the same time, yes, there has to be a risk assessment to determine probable outcome for any decision and to decide if it is a price you are willing and able to pay, worst-case scenario.

    (Side note: Fuck dysphoria too.)

    Yes, it would come off as trivializing but I won't say it's entirely inaccurate. In a way. I spoke with someone who thought it was cosmetic and like butchery to the body and lying to oneself of who they really are underneath. That it is traumatic and maybe sometimes it is? But who is she to say it is simply wrong and bad. And especially the fact it being from a "godly" point of view it kinda makes it bias. I can't imagine how others have felt she spoke that to that she refuses to recognize how they are now because her values supersede.
    It's difficult because yes, people get to choose what they believe, including their religious faith. However, it doesn't mean they're right and it doesn't mean you need to mold yourself to it. It also doesn't mean you can't criticize, hopefully for the legitimate problems/failures of a particular philosophy rather than unfairly.

    So you analyze it, determine where the values are being drawn from, then weigh the authority level of those sources, and engage with those things drawn out into view. Lots of times people will have ideas that claim are legitimate for one reason or another but those legitimacies can be challenged.

    I also think people find it really easy to pigeonhole or damn things they've never dealt with and come up with a pat answer at the other person's expense; but when they go through it themselves, they gain an awareness they did not formerly have.

    The best speaker I heard these last few days was a religious right baptist Christian mom whose 6th child (she has 7) ended up being trans and now she is a fierce advocate for her child. her child exhibited extreme gender variant behavior at 18 months (not uncommon with transkids). Like any baptist mom, her first response was to try to smack her kid down; and when her kid did not change, she doubled-down and tried to get the day cares and churches and other adult authorities to comply. This went on until her daughter was five and her experiences with her and with the church and the medical/psychiatric community led to a change of heart on her part. Which resulted in her losing her family and her church and everything aligned with that, but her awareness had been changed, her experience with her child helped her realize how intrinsic this was for her rather than something bad, and she could no longer justify her prior beliefs about it. So she still has her faith and it's integrated into being an advocate for her child and other transkids, but it did mean she had to leave HER safe world. It's ironic too because the siblings all recognized the trans sibling's identity early on and accepted it, but it just took the mom some time to catch up.

    Anyway.

    But an INFx I spoke to was super open minded to gender neutrality, and expecting me to be very respectful about it. Her being gender neutral and having many friends who are. Totally used to that environment. We are formed by our environment are we not? To some level. But even my saying it don't make sense logically was taken a little defensively. Knowing I was similar yet I questioned it. Like why?

    So bringing this up can seem to be a touchy iffy subject. Leaving me in an awkward place taking no side, really. As I see both sides.
    it's very personal to people. I try to just listen versus externally challenging someone, to make sure I grasp what they are saying and why they are saying it, for things like that. Sometimes I have strong visceral reactions internally (something I have had to learn to acknowledge in myself, because I didn't realize it earlier in life) but I don't allow those to come out until I've learned more and had more processing time.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft
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  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanra13 View Post
    I won't take a side. But it's interesting how some do. . You seem pretty opinionated. So, can you elaborate on what you mean? What traditional insights? Cognitive dissonance?

    I will say there's a lot of 'acceptance movements' lately
    A lot of people wouldnt support this hard push towards androgyny or homogenity if they didnt feel the pressure to.

    So what they feel or think innately or naturally is in conflict with what they feel under pressure to believe instead. That's the definition of cognitive dissonance pretty much.

    I think its a bad development because some traditional practices deserve to be scrutinised to see if things can be done better or differently. I think that enduring good ideas can stand that scrutiny. I do think tradition and enduring ideas tend to be good. They endured for a reason, often not by accident.

    Some progressive thinking has involved interesting appraisals of traditional thinking and exposed some gaps and even filled in those gaps.

    In relation to gender for instance, the alternative to androgyny is a true appreciation of gender differences, some radical feminists have done so and probably correctly have written about a lot about women and womens unique experience being invisible or written out of history, some of them may go beyond that to suggesting womens neglected qualities, traits etc. that have been written out of history by men are superior but not always, indeed some of them would suggest that this kind of claims of superiority/comeptitiveness is a traditional male trait anyway (a traditional version of maleness, there's a bunch, maybe predominant is the right word, I dont know any longer).

    There's nothing wrong with having an opinion BTW

  5. #15
    Shadow Sovereign Sung Jin-Woo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanra13 View Post
    It doesn't just feel like masculine and feminine traits to me... It feels very personal and I see myself as genuinely female in my head as well. When I'm in a more "feminine" state I feel my brain works more like one in that moment. I feel it, I see it, and I've dreamed it.
    Trust me, I can relate to how you feel. I also think everyone goes through this on different levels, and it's not exclusive to any one group of people no matter what they identify as. Identity is fluid I can agree, I just disagree with the whole defining and labeling it as something apart from being a normal human. It is part of being human. Who cares what your biological sex is, you shouldn't need to define that your mind is different than societal norms. If you say fuck societal norms, and also fuck gender roles etc. Then you should be saying fuck labels too, and not clinging to one like "Gender fluid" to describe yourself. Your actions matter more than your words and definitions.

    The mind is an incredible thing. Another example is other groups with the exact same feelings, but in different ways. Such as otherkin and therians. They genuinely believe they are wolves from a past life etc. They feel they drift between human and animal, and also have past life dreams etc. Are they less valid despite having the exact same types of feelings and experiences? If you think one is a mental illness, then the other must be to right? I think people just cope with reality and identity in different ways, that pertains to their personal experiences with identity. People choose to cling to a type they find favorable to them, and it generally happens right around puberty. I also think a lot of people desire to be unique, and seek out what is new and interesting to incorporate into their new and growing identities.

    I have no issue in doing what you want, being who you want to be. You do you, and make yourself happy. Just be mindful that just because you are a certain way, the world shouldn't bend to match you. You have to fit into the world.

    My biggest issue is the toxic culture that has sprung up around these beliefs. It suddenly became a contest of uniqueness, where you were no longer judged by your character and merit, but your labels instead. Other people see these, and embrace the belief without actually believing it too. Thus corrupting it into something akin to superficial reality TV. This is why I do not support these ideas to be educated and spread to unwitting people. They are always ultimately corrupted by other people's political agendas, and made into superficial distractions on the political social issues front. That is the only reason they get any recognition from government.
    “No matter how much we ask after the truth, self-awareness is often unpleasant. We do not feel kindly toward the Truthsayer.”
    ― Frank Herbert, God Emperor of Dune
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  6. #16
    Moderator Yuu's Avatar
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    Sometimes I wonder if I am actually what some call "Gender fluid."
    Although I've never had cause to make a big deal about. Back in the day when "tomboy" was still a word people would refer to me a such, or they would adapt gender to my hobbies telling me they were "manly" and I found it confusing. I'd stare at them " what? No, I'm just me and I like what I like.

    Often times that can be getting hair and nails done, and then immediately ruining them while working construction ( sadly, not as labor-intensive as I used to be able.)

    And in almost everyone of my dreams I don't think I've had a specified gender.

    I will say that this one area where I do think it easier for women, although I don't think the cause is necessarily in favoring women. I think it's the opposite. i think "manly good, feminine bad" is why it is far more acceptable for women to take on what are considered more male habits or manor isms than it is for men to take on feminine qualities. In this way you have my sympathy. I couldn't imagine just having to wear men's clothing. So bland, so..."samey" no room for self-expression at all.
    " Do something, even if it's wrong."

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    We don't wanna set up for the kill, but that's what I'm 'bout to do."
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  7. #17
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Yesterday I wore red berries in my hat and I was approached by two homosexual men who thought I was gay becausee of thr berries in my hat

    I don't like to be stereotyped as straight or gay. I like to be myself.

  8. #18
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    I know what it is like to be a man but I don't know what it is like to be a woman. So I look at women from the outside hoping to find out what it is like to be a woman. I would have thought a women could have simply told me what it is like to be a women, but so far no luck, I suspect that women don't know what it is like to be a women, otherwise they would tell us.

    There is a sense in which we are a mystery to ourselves and so of course to other genders. We can pick up hints as we go along - those involuntary gestures we make that reveal our true self - the way we touch, the way we move, the tone of our voice, the moments we are caught off guard, the sound of our laughter.

  9. #19
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exolvuntur View Post
    I have no issue in doing what you want, being who you want to be. You do you, and make yourself happy. Just be mindful that just because you are a certain way, the world shouldn't bend to match you. You have to fit into the world.
    When "the world" insists each individual must fit within some narrowly defined role based on biology (or anything else, really), and penalizes those who do not, that requires too much bending on the part of individuals. Such expectations are unhealthy and counterproductive, and it reasonable to work for their removal.

    And @Lark: I haven't seen anyone promoting homogeneity here. That's either a strawman, or a false dichotomy. Some people might be/feel androgynous. I suspect they are in a minority on a spectrum with quite a bit of diversity in it.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    When "the world" insists each individual must fit within some narrowly defined role based on biology (or anything else, really), and penalizes those who do not, that requires too much bending on the part of individuals. Such expectations are unhealthy and counterproductive, and it reasonable to work for their removal.

    And @Lark: I haven't seen anyone promoting homogeneity here. That's either a strawman, or a false dichotomy. Some people might be/feel androgynous. I suspect they are in a minority on a spectrum with quite a bit of diversity in it.
    If unintended consequences had a wiki I'd link it.

    Also avoidable suffering.

    And Predictable Consequences.

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