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Danger and Trolls

Deprecator

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How do you define troll?
I try to avoid using the term altogether simply because I try not to presume the intention of another member, which is a mentality that is only reinforced whenever other members try and publicly speculate about my own motives/ intentions. So while personally I might think that the use of such terminology has become rather diluted/ obsolete, what we can do is identify unwelcome behavior and set rules against that behavior. For an example, if as a community we don't want threads about how "group of people X deserve an untimely demise" then we can make rules against creating those types of threads, and thus any formal reprimand against a member can be made independently of perceived "troll" status.

Still, I think it's interesting how I asked a question that no one could be bothered to answer: "as far the "dangers of trolling" are concerned, what is the worst effect that you've experienced as a result of a perceived troll?" In any event I don't know if it's a coincidence that immediately after asking this question this comment here pops up:

inb4 troll apologis--

oh. too late. :dry:

Regardless, all the members I've seen get publicly accused of being a troll have never come remotely close to creating thread topics like this one:

If a guy creates a thread to discuss "fat, ugly women who need to be wiped off the planet" what exactly do you think he's doing - Algebra?

I feel that this fact only strengthens my earlier comment about how the fear/ hysteria around trolling seems to be a means of pseudo thought policing against unpopular opinions than anything else.
 

Jaguar

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I feel that this fact only strengthens my earlier comment about how the fear/ hysteria around trolling seems to be a means of pseudo thought policing against unpopular opinions than anything else.

I must have missed the hysteria you're alluding to.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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Still, I think it's interesting how I asked a question that no one could be bothered to answer: "as far the "dangers of trolling" are concerned, what is the worst effect that you've experienced as a result of a perceived troll?"

If we're limiting it to this particular site, I'd say it's been a reduction in my desire to participate in this community, and I can't imagine that I've been the only person who has experienced this as a result. Perhaps it's not world-ending, but I assume it's something the people in charge of this place should be concerned with.
 

Obfuscate

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I was raised by a very broken (abusive) home. I was abused by just about every adult in my life. I can genuinely say that I did not ( and still not) understand what it is like to have a support system, loving or even caring, parents.
But I'm not a troll. I can take responsibility for my own actions and behavior. There is no excuse.

Everything is an excuse... people do what they want to do and tell a story to themselves and others to excuse it... sometimes the story makes sense and sometimes it doesn't... sometimes it is based on fact, sometimes the stories match... sometimes we can find a pattern/trend between the stories people tell and the behaviors they exhibit...

there is rarely an excuse that i find valid for behaving like a total dick, but sometimes people are never given the tools or life experiences to pull their head out of their ass, and sometimes they just refuse to... most of us were born with conscience, and those who lost it afterwords had to make a series of choices to ignore it over a prolonged period... "excuses are like assholes; everybody has one"...

that said, excuses rarely excuse bad behavior... it is apparent when someone always has a "reason" to be a dick, and one way or another they pay for that (social backlash, prison time, lonliness, bribery, etc)...

when a person is a proven threat retreat, remove them, or crush them...
 

Coriolis

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I try to avoid using the term altogether simply because I try not to presume the intention of another member, which is a mentality that is only reinforced whenever other members try and publicly speculate about my own motives/ intentions.
But you did use the word "troll" in your previous post. You invited others to comment using whatever definition they preferred. I asked you what is your definition. Are you going to provide one?
 

rav3n

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I despise trolls since there are far more productive ways to behave. They should also take the Hare Psychopathy test to confirm their issues.
 

Mole

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The book "Troll Hunting" by Ginger Gorman researches trolls based on her personal experience.

Look up "guardian troll hunting" in Google.
 

Deprecator

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But you did use the word "troll" in your previous post. You invited others to comment using whatever definition they preferred. I asked you what is your definition. Are you going to provide one?
Okay, fair enough... allow me to try and clarify. I try and avoid using the term altogether when describing another individual. In addition to this, in regards to my original post I was trying to gain a better understanding of what the OP had meant by "more dangerous than we originally thought", simply because without an original reference point this comment doesn't really mean anything to me. And while officially I don't believe my subjective definition for trolling would be necessary when making this inquiry, I still don't mind obliging your request.

In tandem with previously stated definitions, I would loosely define trolling as voicing non-genuine beliefs in order to antagonize others. For an example, I think the last time I publicly accused an individual of being a troll was on another forum some ~5-6 years ago after I saw that they had threads such as "PSA to all men: penis size DOES actually matter" and "Teenagers under 18 shouldn't be allowed to have sex." Not only did these threads get quite the rise out of people, but at the same time I found it difficult to believe that the member in question (who to me came across as exceptionally intelligent) sincerely held some of these beliefs. As such I publicly voiced my skepticism in one of her threads, and in response she actually came up with a reply that I considered to be quite clever (and just my luck, she was permanently banned just as I was finishing up my response).

Genuine "troll" or not, the closest I felt to "danger" was the frustration that came with the timing of her ban -- even though I liked my reply and wanted to post it, I didn't think it was fair for me to do so simply because she no longer had the freedom to carry on with the exchange.

That said, whether people want to agree with my definition or not, I'm still curious as to how "dangerous" we're suppose to think that trolling actually is simply because all this "far worse than we previously thought" business strikes me as form of fear mongering, especially in the absence of a specific reference point or context.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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In tandem with previously stated definitions, I would loosely define trolling as voicing non-genuine beliefs in order to antagonize others. For an example, I think the last time I publicly accused an individual of being a troll was on another forum some ~5-6 years ago after I saw that they had threads such as "PSA to all men: penis size DOES actually matter" and "Teenagers under 18 shouldn't be allowed to have sex." Not only did these threads get quite the rise out of people, but at the same time I found it difficult to believe that the member in question (who to me came across as exceptionally intelligent) sincerely held some of these beliefs. As such I publicly voiced my skepticism in one of her threads, and in response she actually came up with a reply that I considered to be quite clever (and just my luck, she was permanently banned just as I was finishing up my response).

How do you determine if a belief is genuine? People believe all kinds of crazy stuff, and them voicing it might have nothing to do with trying to antagonize other people.
 

Deprecator

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How do you determine if a belief is genuine? People believe all kinds of crazy stuff, and them voicing it might have nothing to do with trying to antagonize other people.
Exactly. I could have told you that I wasn't happy with my subjective definition for trolling, and that the definition itself would be painfully limiting when considering how difficult it is to ascertain intent/ motive of another user. I even tried to provide a specific example to illustrate the definition but even then I guess it wasn't very helpful.

Regardless, the question was what was my definition for trolling, not whether we can determine if the belief is genuine or if the definition should be relevant when moderating the forum.
 

ceecee

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But you did use the word "troll" in your previous post. You invited others to comment using whatever definition they preferred. I asked you what is your definition. Are you going to provide one?

The problem is he is approaching defining trolling in the same way he approaches every topic he takes issue with. How trolling impacts him and him alone. And that projection is how he defines trolling. How trolling impacts anyone else or this forum is not really relevant. But I reckon his definition will include terms like thought police, fear mongering and typical left hysteria. Again, how trolling impacts or appears to one person is not an indication of what it actually is or does to anyone else.
 

Deprecator

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The problem is he is approaching defining trolling in the same way he approaches every topic he takes issue with. How trolling impacts him and him alone. And that projection is how he defines trolling. How trolling impacts anyone else or this forum is not really relevant. But I reckon his definition will include terms like thought police, fear mongering and typical left hysteria. Again, how trolling impacts or appears to one person is not an indication of what it actually is or does to anyone else.
Just wanted to point out that I already provided a definition for troll and it did not in any way mention these terms. Either way, the main point I was trying to make before that was I felt that the term is largely diluted/ obsolete, and that my personal definition was not needed when making my original inquiry. As such, it's not clear to me how you're making the connection to my definition and other topics that you feel I've taken issue with.

In my experience, across the board on all forums I've participated in, the starker the contrast between my political beliefs and another person's the more likely they are to perceive me as a troll. To me this suggests that the term has more to do than "pseudo thought policing" (i.e. attacking anyone who agrees view X, because that thought isn't aloud) than anything else. And regardless of the legitimacy of this impression of mine, it still seems that I'm not the only one who has observed this trend or something similar to it. For an example, the last time we had a publicly posted troll list one member replied as follows:

"2 are just people who usually disagree with you. They might be a bit snarky, harsh in their language, but not any more than you."
 

ceecee

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Just wanted to point out that I already provided a definition for troll and it did not in any way mention these terms. Either way, the main point I was trying to make before that was I felt that the term is largely diluted/ obsolete/ and that my personal definition was not necessary when making my original inquiry. As such, it's not clear to me how you're making the connection to my definition and other topics that you feel I've taken issue with.

In my experience, across the board on all forums I've participated in, the starker the contrast between my political beliefs and another person's the more likely they are to perceive me as a troll. To me this suggests that the term has more to do than "pseudo thought policing" (i.e. attacking anyone who agrees view X, because that thought isn't aloud) than anything else. And regardless of the legitimacy of this impression of mine, it still seems that I'm not the only one who has observed this trend or something similar. For an example, the last time we had a publicly posted troll list one member replied as follows:

"2 are just people who usually disagree with you. They might be a bit snarky, harsh in their language, but not any more than you."

I didn't call you a troll, or imply that you are one. The issue I have with you is that you seem unable to imagine how a troll may impact anyone other than yourself. Everything you post is "In my experience", "all forums I've participated in" or "my political beliefs".

It doesn't matter if you feel the term is diluted or obsolete and incidentally, I think the term is completely overused. But I've never dismissed what a troll can accomplish nor how they impact other people and I don't feel it's a simple situation of someone disagreeing with someone else. That's libertarian level obtuseness and I don't think you're standing up to be counted with them.
 

Mole

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Apparently trolls are canaries in the mine because many go on to commit crimes against persons. This is documented in her new book "Troll Hunting" by Ginger Gorman.

And if we won't read the book, our criticism is based on vanity.
 

Coriolis

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Okay, fair enough... allow me to try and clarify. I try and avoid using the term altogether when describing another individual. In addition to this, in regards to my original post I was trying to gain a better understanding of what the OP had meant by "more dangerous than we originally thought", simply because without an original reference point this comment doesn't really mean anything to me. And while officially I don't believe my subjective definition for trolling would be necessary when making this inquiry, I still don't mind obliging your request.
Well, if you are going to use a word, you should know what you mean by it. If you are not using a standard definition (presuming there is one that is generally accepted), you should explain your definition, to avoid misunderstanding. Of course, I think some people don't bother to explain because they are depending on that misunderstanding to create drama, rile people up, or otherwise provide them with entertainment. This is not unrelated to the idea of trolling. Yes, the idea of "more dangerous than originally thought" begs the question of how dangerous did we/the OP think it was to begin with? One might also ask: what is danger? Will we extend that term to any form of risk or negative outcomes, or only harm to life, limb, and property?

In tandem with previously stated definitions, I would loosely define trolling as voicing non-genuine beliefs in order to antagonize others.
Not an unreasonable definition. It depends, though, on assessing not only intentions but authenticity: does the member actually believe what he/she is posting?

That said, whether people want to agree with my definition or not, I'm still curious as to how "dangerous" we're suppose to think that trolling actually is simply because all this "far worse than we previously thought" business strikes me as form of fear mongering, especially in the absence of a specific reference point or context.
The danger I see, which I prefer to call negative consequences, is that certain posting styles which are often labelled "trolling" discourage posting by members who do not share the same posting style. Since I like to be exposed to a broad spectrum of opinions and experiences on whatever the topic is, I consider that a negative, something that makes the conversation less interesting and worthwhile than it could be. So, it has little to do with the content presented, and everything to do with the manner of presenting it. I suppose it's a bit like litter in the park.

How do you determine if a belief is genuine? People believe all kinds of crazy stuff, and them voicing it might have nothing to do with trying to antagonize other people.
It is quite possible to antagonize someone by voicing a genuine belief.

Exactly. I could have told you that I wasn't happy with my subjective definition for trolling, and that the definition itself would be painfully limiting when considering how difficult it is to ascertain intent/ motive of another user. I even tried to provide a specific example to illustrate the definition but even then I guess it wasn't very helpful.
Better, then, to reject the term and its definitions, and simply spell out what you mean.

The problem is he is approaching defining trolling in the same way he approaches every topic he takes issue with. How trolling impacts him and him alone. And that projection is how he defines trolling. How trolling impacts anyone else or this forum is not really relevant. But I reckon his definition will include terms like thought police, fear mongering and typical left hysteria. Again, how trolling impacts or appears to one person is not an indication of what it actually is or does to anyone else.
I didn't see a self-focus in his definition, just the same reliance on things that are impossible to assess, like intention and sincerity. It is not that different from definitions others have mentioned, here and elsewhere. I do agree that definitions should be behavior focused, at least if they are to be used to impose penalites on a forum like this.

In my experience, across the board on all forums I've participated in, the starker the contrast between my political beliefs and another person's the more likely they are to perceive me as a troll. To me this suggests that the term has more to do than "pseudo thought policing" (i.e. attacking anyone who agrees view X, because that thought isn't aloud) than anything else. And regardless of the legitimacy of this impression of mine, it still seems that I'm not the only one who has observed this trend or something similar to it. For an example, the last time we had a publicly posted troll list one member replied as follows:

"2 are just people who usually disagree with you. They might be a bit snarky, harsh in their language, but not any more than you."
I wonder how much your personal biases are coloring your experience. You do know statistics show that more crime is committed by black people?
 

LucieCat

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In my opinion, trolling is sometimes as dangerous as the responses to it. If everyone just rolled their eyes and ignored it, trolls would probably eventually just get bored and stop. Well most of them probably. It's the reaction that fuels the trolls. Hence the phrase "Don't feed the trolls."

Now, if we're talking about actual harassment as far as trolling goes. That's another game altogether. Bullying and harassing other people as harmful should be obvious.

Of course, people are always going to give trolls recognition for some reason. It's just like people in real life who repeatedly fall into others' attempts to start needless drama over things that are, quite often, ridiculous like Christmas decorations and boots (though those are the dumbest things I've seen someone try to start drama over, or at least that's how I saw their intent)
 

Mole

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In my opinion, trolling is sometimes as dangerous as the responses to it. If everyone just rolled their eyes and ignored it, trolls would probably eventually just get bored and stop. Well most of them probably. It's the reaction that fuels the trolls. Hence the phrase "Don't feed the trolls." Now, if we're talking about actual harassment as far as trolling goes. That's another game altogether. Bullying and harassing other people as harmful should be obvious. Of course, people are always going to give trolls recognition for some reason. It's just like people in real life who repeatedly fall into others' attempts to start needless drama over things that are, quite often, ridiculous like Christmas decorations and boots (though those are the dumbest things I've seen someone try to start drama over, or at least that's how I saw their intent)
If you read the book, you will find trolls go on to commit crimes.
 
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