[Type 5] 5s and being assertive

[Virtual ghost]

I am curious about some things and I will express that through a few questions :


How do you perceive or define assertive element in yourself ?

How often people get verbally defensive around you ?

Do people say you come across as angry or argumentative ?

How do you define and experience integration to e8 ?



Feel free to add more questions if you are interested in the topic.

 

[Lord Lavender]

I am curious about some things and I will express that through a few questions :


How do you perceive or define assertive element in yourself ?

How often people get verbally defensive around you ?

Do people say you come across as angry or argumentative ?

How do you define and experience integration to e8 ?



Feel free to add more questions if you are interested in the topic.

How do you perceive or define assertive element in yourself ?

My assertive element is when people are wrong I feel the urge to correct it to keep my inner state "logical".
How often people get verbally defensive around you ?

Not very often. I am a pretty laid back and fun loving guy until debates arise then I really get other people on edge and they become defensive.
Do people say you come across as angry or argumentative ?

Yes. When debating a topic I am full of energy and joy for the debate which can come across as aggression.
How do you define and experience integration to e8 ?

My e8 side comes out when I am confident in my knowledge in something and I start to lead things along and others start to look up to me as the leader.

 

[Virtual ghost]

No one else ?

 

[Totenkindly]

In the setting I grew up in, getting into debates was pointless and just got me abused and/or cut off. So I basically withdrew from meaningful social interaction except from some one on one's with people I could trust. I spent most of my time in self-absorbed study, contemplation, or creative activity. Besides, then if people were doing things I thought made no sense, it did not typically impact me anyway.

I began throwing my weight around in my 30's and beyond. I wasn't happy and couldn't accomplish the things I wanted to accomplish by remaining an outsider all the time. There is also the reality that you can't remain passive and untouched, because even if you don't want to step on other people's toes, you are vulnerable to more assertive and even aggressive people who DO want to change you or control you to fit into THEIR plans. Playing defensive ALL the time (or walling people out) only goes so far and won't necessarily protect you.

But there was a big curve in learning how to deal with people, not fretting over someone getting in my face or cutting me out, not worrying about being misunderstood or misrepresented. As much as it might seem odd, I get annoyed by having to wield power, and I don't like battles that become personal. So when I got to be more assertive, it would still "feel wrong" and I had to recalibrate myself in terms of conflict and how to read what was unfolding. That shift to 8 brings efficacy to all the knowledge a 5 can pick up along the way, but you have to accept that it's okay to assert yourself, be more directive than informative at times, and that sometimes you'll need to override someone else. With 8, it also feels like goal shifts from "understanding everything correctly / stating something correctly" to "accomplishing the task / getting the job done." So sometimes you'll make decisions without knowing all the data, or you won't share all you know if it would undermine reaching the goal, etc., because sometimes what you share will be exploited rather than used for positive purposes. And you understand sometimes people will oppose you because they have a different goal or anything ranging from good to bad motivations, and you just focus on your goal and getting it done.

I dunno. It's a weird thing. But basically the energy flows are different. WIth 5, data moves from the outside to internal, where you parse and sift through it. With 8, you are sending energy from within out into the world to change the world.

 

[nonsequitur]

How do you perceive or define assertive element in yourself ?
When I take action consistent with I believe is important, against social and professional pressure. Be it to choose to voice what I believe it hypocrisy, or to choose to calm the situation when there is panic.

How often people get verbally defensive around you ?
Seldom. Even when being assertive/voicing my opinion, I try not to be judgemental about people whom I disagree with.

Do people say you come across as angry or argumentative ?
More when I was younger. Now what was perceived as anger comes across as passion. The argumentation comes across as conviction.

How do you define and experience integration to e8 ?
What I was describing above, I guess. Not to stop at the stage of collecting information, but instead doing something with it. To take action and build a world that aligns with personal values, to express myself and my perspective through my actions and creations.

 

[Virtual ghost]

As I pointed in other thread(s) I think I am 1 instead of 5 and I have opened this thread to check how other fives are doing in this regard, since in this regard the difference should be the largest. Since I am INTJ and technical expert tritype it seems that I am very similar to the 5s but it seem that I have to admit myself that I am not a 5, since I am too J and "pushy" for a 5. Therefore I will continue to be unhappy if I don't recognize my real needs and make peace with them and myself. Also I think that even from my posting it is possible to sense my rigidity and concerns with efficiency and morals.


I even made very good and large explanation of why I am 1 instead of 5 however I was hesitant to accept what is actually pretty obvious. However that leads me to nowhere on the long run.


It seems that it is very easy to mistype 1 with 5 fix for the actual 5.

Ones are often intelligent, independent and emotionally detached and can easily mistype themselves, or be mistyped by others, as examples of Enneatype Five, but however intelligent they are, Ones are primarily people of action, not thought, and they are far more comfortable adopting a leadership role than is the more withdrawn and reclusive Five. Even the most intellectual of type Ones – consider Plato in this regard – want to leave a tangible mark. Plato created the academy which survived for the better part of a millennium.

1-5-3 : usually introverted and elitist, prefer the scientific approach in nearly everything they do. These Ones appear colder and very self-certain but can be rather sensitive and fearful on the inside. Are afraid of failure and not meeting the expectations of others, mainly because they think they do not have enough resources for all their projects. They are hard-working, thorough and very meticulous and their work is usually impeccable. These Ones are particularly intellectual, knowledgeable and objective.
usual subtypes: self-preserving, social 1w9
similar tritypes: 1-3-5, 5-1-3, 3-1-5
flavours: cerebral, scientific, meticulous and objective

So when disatisfaction with the world or plenty of work kicks in I may even go to

1-3-5 : a rather ambitious, elitist and goal-oriented One, very hard-working and somewhat intellectually arrogant. They rarely show their feelings and therefore they usually seem cold and very self-assured. These Ones are generally well-read, well-mannered and quite intellectually refined: they like to impress others with their intelligence, wisdom and irreproachable work.
usual subtypes: social, self-preserving, 1w9
similar tritypes: 1-5-3, 3-1-5, 5-1-3
flavours: competent, intellectual, ambitious and refined

Which is all pretty 5ish in package but there is just too much determination and desire for impact. It seems that five collects knowledge and then uses it upon the world, while one with five fix actively scans the world for problems and then searches for solution or leads the team to the problematic spot. What makes it very easy to make a mistype. For years I am slaming my head into the wall over the question: what kind of a 5 makes plans for other people, has so high expectations and desires, ignores/fights impractical models, controls things and enjoys it so much, makes people defensive often etc ... and this is the pretty obvious answer to that question: The 5 that isn't a 5.


However if if you would type only by core then 5 would still actually be more like me. Especially since I don't relate to traditional suff in e1 profiles, where you can find plenty of foreign elements that don't even fit into my culture/country.



5s don't have these kinds of dillemas that hunt them ?

 

[Virtual ghost]

I will answer here where it is more on topic.

[MENTION=4347]Virtual ghost[/MENTION]

I really don't know what kind of NTJ you are. Typically ENTJs get themselves involved with people but in a specific way. ENTJs tend to see people as a means to an (Ni envisioned) end. ENTJs are proactive in organizing their social atmosphere to fit that end like placing all the correct parts in some kind of machine. It's very systematic thinking. On the one hand it makes ENTJs come off as 'cold' as even people can be seen as 'tools' for the ENTJ but on the other hand it makes ENTJs pretty good at forging fruitful relationships as the ENTJ is likely to discard anyone that does not benefit their own well being and healthy state of mind (i.e. toxic people) while others will needlessly cling on to toxic relationships. The people that ENTJs do not pay attention to all to often is themselves. ENTJs have a good intuition about where everyone and everything else outside of themselves fit but all too frequently are unsure where they themselves fit in the grand scheme of things which can lead to problems like anxiety and insecurity (inferior Fi).

INTJs have a better grasp on their environment in relation to themselves in terms of being comfortable in any given setting but sometimes fail to size up their actual environment correctly (as opposed to sizing up themselves incorrectly).

That is true in typological sense.

However when you live in a place when your can get to the Master degree without solving a single practical problem then all of this is going to wind. Also here when you go to college and you can't pick your classes since the courses are static (take it or leave it). Suing someone will probably turn into a bureaucratic nightmare, that can even last over a decade or even two in extreme scenario. Due to communist legacy owning a business is often seen as criminal behavior (especially if you are doing good). Here it is totally normal that they hire D class of student over A class of student simply because uncle of D students already works in the company, they even forge hiring contests since they already know who they are going to hire and all of this is just a cover up. War destroyed many things that never really came back. Also here you don't have a congressman which you can contact as you like. We have some of the highest taxes in the world that eat good chunk your entire income (here vat is 25%, and tax on fuel is shocking 110%) etc etc. Plus when you have FP parents admiting/showing to them you are strong Te user is like telling very conservative parents you are gay.


This is why I feel generally lost and have unhealthy Fi outbrakes. Since my main strenghts are completely useless in so many situations, even if I often see at first sight what is wrong in particular situation. I live as INTJ but in this case living style and actual cognition may not be the same thing, especially if you are not into selling you ass. What when combined is something that US based typology doesn't take into account at all. Here often the only way to do something is by going throught the wall, and you can't do that everyday.

 

[Virtual ghost]

I will answer you here. (it is big post but I wanted to seal the story because I have to start spending energy elsewhere)

ENTJs are just as strongly linked to other kinds of leadership, such as military leadership. In fact, one of the type nicknames is the Field Marshal. People hereabouts probably view this sort of consistent, determined, and outgoing style of leadership through the lens of capitalism because: (1) most of us grew up in capitalist economies, and (2) in such an environment, this type matches up well with the CEO of a business. That doesn't exclude other manifestations of the preferences, though.

INTJs tend to be more behind-the-scenes leaders, manipulating situations out of the public view, as opposed to ENTJS who will just go up to people and tell them what to do, and expect them to follow. Of course these are just stereotypes, but it might help you decide which you are.

That is the problem: I am both ... depending on circumstance.

Extroverted (E) 54% Introverted (I) 46%
Intuitive (N) 64% Sensing (S) 36%
Thinking (T) 85% Feeling (F) 15%
Judging (J) 67% Perceiving (P) 33%


INTJ
Introvert(3%) iNtuitive(84%) Thinking(78%) Judging(66%)
You have marginal or no preference of Introversion over Extraversion (3%)
You have strong preference of Intuition over Sensing (84%)
You have strong preference of Thinking over Feeling (78%)
You have distinct preference of Judging over Perceiving (66%)


Extroverted (E) 50% Introverted (I) 50%
Intuitive (N) 58.62% Sensing (S) 41.38%
Thinking (T) 81.25% Feeling (F) 18.75%
Judging (J) 77.42% Perceiving (P) 22.58%


E N T J !

Extraverted (E) 50% Introverted (I) 50%
Intuitive (N) 82% Sensing (S) 18%
Thinking (T) 95% Feeling (F) 5%
Judging (J) 91% Perceiving (P) 9%



Extroversion |||||||||||||| 54%
Orderliness |||||||||||||||||| 78%
Emotional Stability |||||||||||||||||| 72%
Accommodation |||||||||| 38%
Inquisitiveness ||||||||||||||||||| 84%


ENTJ
Extravert(25%) iNtuitive(59%) Thinking(78%) Judging(72%)
You have moderate preference of Extraversion over Introversion (25%)
You have distinct preference of Intuition over Sensing (59%)
You have strong preference of Thinking over Feeling (78%)
You have distinct preference of Judging over Perceiving (72%)


Cognitive Process Level of Development (Preference, Skill and Frequency of Use)
extraverted Sensing (Se) ******************************* (31.7)
good use
introverted Sensing (Si) ********************** (22.8)
limited use
extraverted Intuiting (Ne) ************************ (24.5)
average use
introverted Intuiting (Ni) *************************************** (39.8)
excellent use
extraverted Thinking (Te) *********************************************** (47.2)
excellent use
introverted Thinking (Ti) ***************************** (29.6)
average use
extraverted Feeling (Fe) ********************* (21.4)
limited use
introverted Feeling (Fi) *********************** (23.6)
limited use


Cognitive Process Level of Development (Preference, Skill and Frequency of Use)
extraverted Sensing (Se) ************************* (25.7)
average use
introverted Sensing (Si) ******************** (20.8)
limited use
extraverted Intuiting (Ne) *************************** (27.6)
average use
introverted Intuiting (Ni) *************************************************** (51.1)
excellent use
extraverted Thinking (Te) ************************************************ (48.4)
excellent use
introverted Thinking (Ti) ************************** (26.7)
average use
extraverted Feeling (Fe) **************** (16.5)
limited use
introverted Feeling (Fi) *********************** (23.6)
limited use

I am quite attracted to leadership and if possible I take it, but often that isn't possible since I live in the society that isn't logically structured, I believe that this is visible from my posts around the forum. However I struggle with "What is me a what are circumstances ?".


However I am giving up on this game since there are too much elements that are completely out of picture for typology. There is no perfect fit, however for the sake of argument I will say that I am INTJ 582 so/sp. I started as 583 but there was something wrong with that, so I started to dig. I don't see myself as 2 fixed but it may not be that simple, especially due to bolded part, while underlined is parhaps the key to everything.

If you are a 258, you are caring, knowledgeable and protective. You want to be helpful, wise and straight- forward. You are an intellectual ambivert both extroverted and introverted. You are caring and can easily move towards others to help, or feel over extended and feel the need to pull away. Your life mission is to help, inform and/or protect others. A true analyst, you are happiest when you are in a position of leadership and can use your natural instinct to understand strategic principles to guide others. You can be so identified with your opinions that you can be too forward or too distant from others, which can appear intense, unpredictable and intimidating

The bolded part allows me to completely turn off heart triad and this is where many problem are likely occur. Since due to NTJnes, So/Sp instinct and integration towards 8 it seems that I can create illusion of 3w4 fix, which can also evaporate at any time. The profile in general says that 258 types are socially confusing people since all three elements are in contradiction, which is because this tritype develops only in situations where things go terribly wrong ... and my life can be considered to be such case. I have spread myself maximally so that I can grab any opportunity that comes, even if the combination doesn't make sense at face value. What really attracts me to this tritype is that it is defined as triple rejected, what also means that I am impossible to control. Since I can always scrap my investemnts and say "I've seen worse", what most people finds terrifying. Especially since I have been through so many weird situations in life that I am build on a way that I can remake myself in order to go through various situations ... plus I can't be shocked since I've seen "everything". (what again scares people)


Also I often think that beneath my strong 1 score there is hidden, unloved and militarized 2w1 fix that has very strong wing, especially since I do acts of kindness or I take care of others when that is needed. I constantly remind or educate people, I am good cook, I repair stuff for others, create structure for others, once I even helped blind guy over finishing his final project at college. etc.



Also this doesn't sound like a 5 even if it is typed as 5. This sounds quite ENTJish actually.

5-8-2: Most personable and people-oriented Five, especially if SOC. Amplified with the 6 wing.
5-8-2: these Fives are more focused on and involved with their environments. They’re typically quite imposing and intrusive on others’ lives although they don’t like it when the reverse happens. They are dedicated, courageous, confident and passionate people, sometimes overprotective of their loved ones and having a tendency to dominate and more or less subtly manipulate others into believing as they do. Aiming for a position of power and authority, these Fives have a deep urge to closely control their worlds.

The whole thing actually sounds quite like me and it hits a few things that other profiles never do. Actually INTJ with Strategist tritype shouldn't be something unheard of. Therefore I will go with this as my final answer.

Triple rejection (258) - Strategist tritype

This tritype wants to really be of service by providing useful information to others and protecting others through their knowledge or expertise in a particular area. It can be a confusing type because there is a hot/cold quality to them that can be difficult for people to understand. One minute they are helpful and warm, the next cold and rejecting, and then another seemingly directive and blunt. On the high side they really know what is needed to protect and guide others. They can sometimes feel they don't have the internal resources to help others but want to have something to offer (which contributes to the hot/cold quality).

If you are a 258 type, you are caring, knowledgeable and protective. You want to be helpful, wise and straight- forward. You are an intellectual ambivert both extroverted and introverted. You are caring and can easily move towards others to help, or feel over extended and feel the need to be pull away. Your life mission is to help, inform and/or protect others. A true analyst, you are happiest when you are in a position of leadership and can use your natural instinct to understand strategic principles to guide others. You can be so identified with your opinions that you can be too forward or too distant from others, which can appear intense, unpredictable and intimidating

Likely to deny that they have needs themselves, deny vulnerability, deny deny deny "it's the others who depend on me, not the other way around", and can exert a great deal of strategic insight into most situations and become the classic 'mastermind' behind affairs. When less healthy they are control freaks and can't leave others alone---they need to be the prime mover of them all, while denying all the way that they need the control.

These types, more than anything, need to have the upper hand on people. They may be manipulative and/or domineering. Very often, power hungry.
2-5-8 typess captures very well my secretiveness and wariness when around other people, and how I do the usual T ( Thinking ) by showing love through doing things for the loved one.

Your emotional energy goes towards seeking safety and certainty in relationships. You are sensitive to and expect rejection from others. Also, you tend to feel separate from others. You hold back your true self in relationships, offering instead, a skill, service or protection. Overall, because you expect to be rejected, you are cautious in relationships and may be hesitant to form attachments.
You have all three Realists Enneacards - Types: 2, 5 & 8

 

[Virtual ghost]

With the post above my job at TypeC is basically done. I let things sink for a few days but I am 582. The problem with me is that I have apsurd life circumstances behind me and therefore I have a series of contradictions in my typing.


1. I am e5 and SO dom.

2. My tritype is 5w6, 8w9, 2w1. So all 3 elements are in contradiction at face value, but this had to be made in order to cover all the important fields.

3. I am supposed to be some rogue abstract thinker (and I am), but I also have entire anger triad in my fixes.

4. I am triple unloved in tritype, what is apsurd on its own. But because of this I am very hard to emotionally blackmail, what is scary I suppose.

5. I am SO dom but I am also counter-flow. What means that I can use the instinct against certain people and groups or as a means of remaking and enhancing the system/situation.



This really explains why people tend to be on alert around me in real life. Since there is too much contradiction at face value and people can't openly read me (just as profiles suggest), actually people tend to complain about this for many years. While on the other hand I never met anyone that is quite like me and for some reason people find me memorable even after years ... and this could easily be the main reason (unatural energy flow). Plus the fact that this is very rare tritype, because it doesn't come to life naturally and requires wierd series of circumstances in environment to occur.


However I am quite happy that all of this finally got defined.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Perhaps it is the time to address the real issue. Since I am playing games with myself in order to defend what is probably undefendable.


Just as I said in the "type me" thread. The idea that I am 5 is very questionable, what kind a five overwhelms people on daily basis ? I am trying to push aggressive fixes and variants on myself but it is all for nothing and all of it seems as a fundamental mistake. Since I am typing circumstances instead of myself. Plus as I am surrounded with sensitive people and head types I have learned to keep my mouth shut ... since I don't want to trigger drama. (due to this repression I can even get e1 issues). On the other hand I have a very long history of 8 scores as well as ambiverted ENTJ scores. Plus I was quite extroverted child before life circumstances turned me into an outcast. So after all of this it is reasonable to presume that I am simply desintegrated to e5 for 20+ years, I litterally became my desintegration. As a matter of fact when I took the Nardi's test for the first time I came out as ENTJ. Therefore since my heart triad is generally underdeveloped integration towards 2 messes my 3w4 heart fix at this point.


Plus in profiles there is this line that I am watching for years.

835: Focused and knowledgeable 8. Most scholarly 8, especially if introverted. Most impersonal 8, especially if self-preserving.

In this scenario I would be 853, I am generally ambiverted and my So and Sp are in relative balance. Also since I am not American I lack many elements of e8 that are stereotypical (Example: I was born in a place where private property doesn't even exist). Also I typed myself when I was sick and had slower matabolism ... and now when I am healthy some key elements of me have simply evaporated. What made the typing suddenly unsustainable/wrong.



Plus there are posts like this one.

I guess this is the right thread to post this question. Since I am wondering if this is a 8 thing or it is just me.
When you go thorugh the profiles of type 8 there is plenty of dark suff, fights/violence, defending people, messed up childhood, the person is not emotionally available and has trust issues. Something you may not relate openly or you don't want to relate to .... but then comes reality check.

Your early life was violent :
Does "your country gets openly invaded when you are 6" count ? Or it is hidding in the basement from the airstrikes that counts ?


You preserve your personal and physical integrity :
Is that when I was bullied/abused, but when I realized that no one cares, so I attacked the guy and beat him up.


You care and protect the others:
Is that when I go to get the meds during snowstorm or the fact that I am the one that deals with bugs, worms, spiders ?


You are headstong:
Is that when I threat authority as my equal ?


You want to make others happy ?
Does grocery shopping and being a good cook count ? How about house rapairs ?


You are intimidating:
Is that why my friends tease me with "Hi there serial killer !" !?


You are your own boss:
Can working as a freelancer count ? Or the fact that I have serious and concret plans to become a business owner ?


You are conqueror:
Is that how I started to play strategy video games at the age of 7 ? You know, organising military operations, handling the budgets, invading countries, chasing spys .... ?


You have a problem with being vulnerable:
Does the fact that I never had a GF counts ?


You can remain cool headed in tense/hard situations:
Is that when I walked through mine fields without freaking out ?


You create followers:
Is that when I go away but someone stil continues my "fight" ? Or they will do exacly as I desire because "my logic is good".

Etc.
It is as if your inner world and how you see yourself are out of touch with how you behave or others see you in real life.

So I could be iNTJ 8w9,5w6,3w4 So/Sp. But I could be also eNTJ that doesn't appriciate his environment that much, since it is a mess and wants to be that way, so I often keep low profile. As a matter of fact I have developped the whole and complex defense mechanisms against that. Just today I had two deals and both got cancelled, I mean 8s are quite into "deals". Plus So instinct in 8s tends to hide/control open aggression, especially if w9. For many years people say I am bear like: ok, but you don't want to piss him off. Plus I live in a place where Te is often seen as bad thing that is destroying the social order, that is very Fe based. Plus there is no developed market system that would require plenty of Te.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Btw.

I dived in lakes and swimmed across the rives, I walk a few miles on average day, I have explored caves, I beat people in shooting video games with scores 50:0 or even 350:0, I never had a car accident, there were days when I cut down 10 trees, I never had more than 10 punds extra from my ideal weight, I am good/skilled cook, I used to be a shock jock back in a day, I climbed on various mountains, I never lost a physical fight (that people brought on me), once I played a team sport game and my whole team got kicked out quickly but I alone managed to kick the entire other team out of the game one by one and eventually win, ..... inferior Se my ass.

 

[chubber]

As an e5 with a strong e4 wing. My e5 integrates with e7 that means I need work on integration with e8. My e4 wing integrates with e1, which means I need to learn to integrate with e2. A lot of work ahead for me.

 

[Virtual ghost]

I think this is it. Social Antisocial is a good way of discribing it.
Some lunatics turn my country into a mess back in the 90s and that was never fully undone.

The Social Eight - "Solidarity" (Countertype)

The Social Eight is the countertype of the three Eight subtypes. Social Eights represent a contradiction: the Eight archetype rebels against social norms, but the Social Eight is also oriented toward protection and loyalty. They express lust and aggression in the service of life and other people.

This person is "social antisocial." In contrast to Self-Preservation Eights, Social Eights are more loyal, more overtly friendly, and less aggressive. They are helpful Eights-people who are nurturing, protective, and concerned with the injustices that happen to people-yet they also display an antisocial aspect with regard to the rules of society.

Naranjo explains that, symbolically, this character represents the child who became tough (or violent) in protecting his mother against his father. This is someone who bands together with the mother and goes against the patriarchal power and all that is associated with it: violence out of solidarity. Archetypally, this character represents the child who has given up on getting love from the father and allied with the mother against him.

Social Eights are very sensitive to detecting situations in which people are being persecuted or exploited by others that hold more power. When they detect this kind of thing, they tend to act to protect those who are less powerful.

Overall, this Eight appears more mellow and outgoing and less quick to anger than the other Eights. They tend to rebel in less obvious ways. They are very active, and they may lose themselves through constantly being in action. The may display a disproportionate lust for projects or for collecting things.

Socially, Social Eights like the power a group offers, and they may have difficulty engaging in more "individualized" relationships. In extreme cases, this Eight can tend toward megalomania. In close relationships, they may display a lack of commitment to the partner that hides an unconscious fear of abandonment.

In becoming a protector at too young an age, these Eights typically lose consciousness of their own needs for love and care. While people with this Eight subtype develop a strong ability to care for and protect others, they unconsciously give up their own need for love and replace it with a compensatory movement toward power and pleasure. It's generally hard for an Eight to make their love needs conscious, and while they can seem softer or calmer than the other Eights, Social Eights also have a blind spot where their own needs for love and protection are concerned.

This Eight often doesn't look like an Eight, Ichazo called this subtype "Friendship," but Naranjo uses the descriptor "complicity" or "solidarity" to distinguish the everyday, positive meaning of the word "friendship" from what he calls the "ego game" of the Social Eight’s unconscious personality pattern. According to Naranjo, this individual’s main drive is for something like loyalty. The Social Eight subtype is the most intellectual of the three, but these Eights also rebel against the dominant (patriarchal) culture. This rebellion necessarily involves a mixture of authority and intellect because the dominant authority in patriarchal societies tends to promote the intellectual control of impulses and excess. While the Sexual Eight is the most overtly anti-intellectual of the three Eight subtypes, the Social Eight goes up against the power of authority out of a desire to protect the oppressed and, unconsciously, a personal need for the nurturance associated with maternal care.

Male Social Eights can look like Type Nines, and female Social Eights may resemble Type Twos. However, these Eights can be distinguished from Nine and Twos because they act in more direct, powerful ways, engage more readily in conflict, and express more power and control in seeking to protect and support other people.

I have lived most of my life as a head type since my parents and education system have both been providing love and acceptance for head stuff. However now I have to throw that away in a sense because all of that was just a game and it seems that I have spend 20+ years in semi-desintegration. I have learned alot in that time but this is not who I fundamentally am, sure profies say "the most brainy 8" but this is still fundamental change. However this has to be done since no longer can this illusion be maintained ... and it is counter productive in alot of ways. I already act quite 8ish in so many situations (and I always did), it is just that I have to start acknowedge this as a fact. I have often wondered why I fell in love with violent video games at such a young age ... and this is it, they provided the brake from illusion. I recently was in situations to walk into a room full of stereotypical 5s and INTs and there seems to be some fundamental difference between me and them.


Also I may not look as a 8 in some aspects because: I wasn't born in capitalism or democracy, here guns are illegal, until a few years back there was no private schools or healthcare, about 9 out of 10 people have their income somehow connected to governemnt spending ... etc. Therefore it is basically impossible to be stereotypical 8 in these parts.


However in the case that e1 profiles are not so conservative and passive agressive I would call myself 1. I already did, but placing myself there seems and feels as fundamentally wrong, even if I show some key e1 traits. But that is probably because my environment was often so disfunctional that the only reasonable thing to do was go e1 on it. (since the maniacs wrecked the country)

 

[Virtual ghost]

However since I am no longer typed as five I think that So-dom may be too much for me. Some SO 8 profiles sound like me but so are Sp 8s.
Since my SO and SP are in balance.

Self-Preservation 8 - Seeking Saftey/Comfort
•Udit Patel "Responsibility (Ichazo's "Affection")"

Self-Preservation Eights most live out the Eights' need for independence through the accumulation of power, position, and, sometimes, material wealth. That is not to say that all Self-Pres Eights are wealthy—most are not—but that this Variant seeks to have and to control whatever resources they can in order to maintain their independence and dominance. Thus, these Eights make shrewd business people and politicians and are extremely practical, approaching life with a tough-minded pragmatism they see as being simply "realistic." Often private people, their home is very important to them. Whether man or woman, the Self-Pres Eight rules the roost and is likely to control resources within the household. Positively, they are often excellent providers and have a way of landing on their feet no matter what life throws at them. Trouble spots include difficulty empathizing with the needs of others, especially if they perceive others as weak or ineffectual. Self-Pres Eights most typify the shrewd, pragmatic, wheeler-dealer aspect of this personality type.


•LifeExplore

Self-preservation Eights often grow up poor or struggling. Food, home, money may be crucial. Generally seek control over their immediate environment and may worry about survival. Tend to value things over people. Maintaining order and material security are important. Eights with this subtype have a stronger connection to 5. Can be materialistic and feel deserving about it; more often have a 7 wing. Could be collectors or have prized objects. Sometimes domineering towards those within their sphere. Might preach an ethic of selfishness - justify their bullying of intimates as necessary to "toughen them up" for the hard world outside. Life is a jungle, only the strong survive. Survivalist mentality, territorial imperatives, angry at family members because they threaten household objects. Hiding in and presiding over their castle; sometimes extra Fiveish.

I often feel quite 5ish. However this is because I think that it is often best to stay under the radar and preserve resources that where often scarce. On the other hand there are many pragmatic and bossy elements in me that don't look 5ish at all, which others seem to see much better than I do. I lived as 5 like due to circumstances/upbringing and structure of education system but the numbers just don't add up in the end.

 

[Virtual ghost]

I mean this is a problem I am struggling for years.


Because this also sounds quite a lot like me and this is my original typing that I had for years.

5-8-3: a more ambitious, materialistic and dominant Five, who has a talent for leadership and a desire for achievement. More competitive and assertive than others, these Fives manage to get out of their shells more often to experience life in a more direct manner and obtain a position of power and success. Although still reserved and secretive, they exude a certain amount of self-confidence and strength which prevents their true vulnerabilities from being guessed by others (a huge fear of this tritype).
typical subtypes: social, self-preserving, 5w6 (counterphobic wing)
similar tritypes: 5-3-8, 8-5-3
flavours: poised, ambitious, domineering and territorial

If 583 is your tritype then you probably have an air self-confidence hiding your nerdiness.
5-8-3: Most measured and goal-oriented Five.

five with an eight fix: least intellectual, though perhaps the most mentally
intense. unsettled by occasional fits of temper,
sudden outbursts. affixed to notions of power;
attitude of resigned realist. quietly guarded and
insistent, may put others ill at ease.

However there are many days when my ambition and directness goes way over this. What makes me feel that I simply got stuck at this level of aggression since everything above this is counter-productive and alienates people. On the other hand I am pretty socially eccentric and brainy person overall (but I am NTJ). Plus through life I have went through a number of switches between 5 and 8. However 5ish phases were all induced by bad social circumstances (plus head triad family and education) and that is perhaps the main reason why I constantly want more aggressive typing, that I can't fully justify to myself. Since with that I am in a sense giving up on who I was in my thoughts for decades (and I was never really unsatisfied with that) However reality and even tests constantly prove otherwise regarding who I really am.


Therefore I have to accept this in order to have a correct vision of myself. What provides a gift of liberation and completion.


So that should be it, the end of this messy story.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I am curious about some things and I will express that through a few questions :


How do you perceive or define assertive element in yourself ?

How often people get verbally defensive around you ?

Do people say you come across as angry or argumentative ?

How do you define and experience integration to e8 ?



Feel free to add more questions if you are interested in the topic.

I’m adaptable to difficult situations, never really complaining, calm when other people are upset. I’m not sure if this has always been the case, but from watching many family members die and being influenced from the Stoics and training in martial arts, I’ve disciplined my mind to be this way. I have always been interested in psychology too. One of my favorite books is Man’s Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl. After being sentenced to a concentration camp in WWII – with his manuscript burned, his wife taken from him, his friends murdered by the Nazis – he found meaning in his response to some of the most tragic circumstances. People like that are models for my behavior. I want to eventually get a PhD in Clinical Psychology, working with a more humanistic approach toward integration, so I’m curious about stages of emotional maturity, assertiveness being a multi-leveled characteristic, or skill, that can be cultivated.

From a subjective perspective, people often come to me for advice. I’m the level-headed one who can calm my friends down, put their worries in perspective, and deal with traumas as they happen. I have had to deal with my friend’s alcoholism, for instance, especially when he wanted to kill himself.

On the other hand, I have trouble learning what my feelings are. I process what I feel for months before I make decisions, or as they say in transactional analysis, psychological positions. This is possibly because I’m using my rationality to understand my feelings, which is strange, because by the time those feelings are recognized, they have gone through my mental-filters. I don’t experience them in a raw way like a lot of my friends. This can be bad, too, because I might rationalize poor habits, such as smoking. I try to be aware of when I'm playing tricks on myself.

While I might seem outwardly relaxed, in my mind, I’m asking questions, analyzing, and intuiting how I feel. I try to examine an issue from many perspectives before arriving at a more definite choice, but at the same time, that choice will be attached to possibilities, which act as back-ups or alternatives for my choice. I don’t like to be locked into one outcome. And before that outcome, I want to know what all the consequences will be. Even after I’ve made a choice, I’m still evaluating, questioning, and revising my former models. My conclusions are open and tentative. They’re never absolute.

Once I do reach a position, I can be more assertive about that. Having boundaries in relationships, for instance, are important to me. These boundaries can be about self-care, such as time to myself, when I should exercise, how people should treat me, how I should treat people, what I will eat, and whether I should smoke. If somebody violates a boundary repeatedly or wants to play manipulative games with me, after I have given them many chances for redemption, I’ll cut them off. I believe in developing healthy relationships, based in trust and openness and evolution, not on emotionally immature games. This spreads from romance to my friendships to how I treat myself. I am compassionate toward myself first. That compassion is reinforced through my habits, how I talk to myself, how I act toward other people, especially when they are difficult or in a crisis.

Over the last few years, meditation has helped me to stay aware of my emotions. I am more sensitive to how my body reacts to unhealthy foods, toxic people, obligations, lack of sleep, conflicts in relationships with friends and family, and so on. By being attuned to the processes of my mind-body, I am better able to detect the beginnings of patterns and deal with them. That also is a product of experience, reflection, adaptation, and many mistakes.

All in All: I’m assertive when it’s necessary, but I’m not naturally assertive. I tend to let things go until they negatively affect my time, space, emotional resources, and so on. Every situation is evaluated based on its context, so the degree of positive/negative effects will differ. For example, talking to a friend about a break-up is different than somebody asking me to drive them around. To take the last example, if they ask me to drive them to the store because their car is in the shop, I wouldn't mind. If they expect me to drive them around for a few months, then that will interfere with my schedule. In that case, the situation would change based on their intentions, their circumstances with their car, and my own availability. I will help if I can, but I don't want to be taken advantage of. There will be set boundaries to avoid being manipulated, but not an assumption beforehand.

 

[Virtual ghost]

8 Self-pres/Social
Self-pres/soc Eights are very self reliant. They are frequently entrepreneurial; the self-preservational instinct combines with the social to make a subtype that is very focused on the external environment. Self-pres/social Eights are the least dramatic of type Eight. They are "no nonsense" types. They can be introverted, especially when the Nine wing is dominant. But, even though they are often quiet, they are very much in control of themselves and their direction in life. On the high side, they make great business owners. They show a sense of fairness and have an instinctual drive to do what needs to be done. They know how to make decisions and aren’t afraid to implement them. Because the sexual instinct is last, they can sometimes be seen as difficult to warm up to. They can be seen as "all business."

This type has a tendency to see relationships as somehow "getting in the way." While they may desire a close romantic relationship, they don't want it if it is at the expense of their self-pres needs. They can appear Five-like in this way, as they are concerned about the demands a relationship might make on their time.

Yeah, my way of doing relationships and especially romance is quite 5 like. Except that I am more anger based instead of fear based person. One of the main reasons why I opened this thread is because I sneak upon people in 5ish way and then "explode" in 8ish way. I don't even count or know how many people I manage to scared by doing that. I often look 5ish until something "triggers" me.

 

[Virtual ghost]

All in All: I’m assertive when it’s necessary, but I’m not naturally assertive. I tend to let things go until they negatively affect my time, space, emotional resources, and so on. Every situation is evaluated based on its context, so the degree of positive/negative effects will differ. For example, talking to a friend about a break-up is different than somebody asking me to drive them around. To take the last example, if they ask me to drive them to the store because their car is in the shop, I wouldn't mind. If they expect me to drive them around for a few months, then that will interfere with my schedule. In that case, the situation would change based on their intentions, their circumstances with their car, and my own availability. I will help if I can, but I don't want to be taken advantage of. There will be set boundaries to avoid being manipulated, but not an assumption beforehand.

But people generally don't get to feel stressed around you ?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

But people generally don't get to feel stressed around you ?

Do you mean that people generally aren't stressed around me, I don't give people the opportunity to get stressed around me, or I generally don't cause people stress? I'm an easy-going person for the most part. The causes for my "easy-going attitude" could be many: a predisposition toward certain personality traits that associate with a "zen-like" attidude, as one friend calls it, experience in handling difficult circumstances with an even-head in the past, martial arts training, meditation, an adrenaline-junkie mentality of calmness in extreme circumstances, reflecting on a lot of my mistakes and learning from them, and so on. Who knows, though? There could be other factors that have contributed toward this state, in different degrees, but my state is subject to change too.

At the same time, I do get stressed out like anybody, but my stresses come about through an accumulation of small negative, repeated challenges, over a course of time. Also: I deal with stress through exercise, negative visualization, combat sports, meditation, and slicing my problems down to their solid challenges with reasonable solutions (rather than fretting about vague or abstract issues). I've been learning, as well, about the stoic idea of only focusing on what I can control and not focusing on what I can't control. Epictetus, for instance, was an ex-slave with a bum leg, who managed to become a philosopher and influence the future emperor of ancient Rome. Some prisoners of war have used his philosophical principles to endure torture and continue on living, not losing themselves to meaninglessness or tragedy. It might sound silly, but I always identified with his advice that a person should embody their philosophy, rather than only talking about it. So, I practice certain principles such as reducing what is superfluous, living a simple healthy life, not expecting much, not complaining unless necessary. I make my life uncomplicated, which reduces stress. Many of these techniques or strategies, anyone can learn, which can help to reduce stress, but they must be practiced and not only passively absorbed. I generally don't talk about these things unless somebody is interested in them.

Often, I deal with my stresses alone and don't bother others with what's bothering me, but I have started to learn to rely on people more. When I was younger, I was more resistant to letting people into my inner-world (Is that aversion for a 5, a need to hoard space and privacy and so on?). Because of that, I have had to shed my impulse to sort things out alone, or act as if I'm not bothered by anything, by sharing more information about myself and being vulnerable about my feelings.

Friends sometimes ask me for advice on their problems, and may be stressed when they're discussing those problems, which is natural. Sometimes they might only want somebody to listen. I am a magnet for weird people, because I live a strange life myself, so we have an affinity and can relate and not judge each other. I don't want to ramble more than I already am, so I'll stop there.

 

[Coriolis]

To answer your original questions:

I consider myself naturally assertive, in that I have never had any problem defending my position or going after what I want. I generally act assertively only when necessary to do one or the other, meaning that I don't assert myself just to get my way when it isn't important, or when I see that things will reach my desired end state without my explicitly asserting myself. I have learned that assertiveness is not always well-received, so use it judiciously. I also value autonomy and don't like other people trying to push myself around, so again, do that to others only when necessary.

I don't often see people getting verbally defensive around me, but to be honest, I'm not sure how that would look. People sometimes disagree with me, but that isn't the same thing. I am sometimes called argumentative, but rarely called angry. I am more often considered intense, opinionated, and determined/persistent. I have been accused of overkill when preparing to present or defend a position.

I'm not sure I can define integration to e8. I have read about it, and nearest I can come to it is what I think of as "ENTJ-mode". This happens when I have to engage directly with groups as a leader, especially in making real-time decisions as things evolve. I can do well at this when I am prepared for it, and even enjoy it, but it is very taxing and eventually I need a break.

Which is all pretty 5ish in package but there is just too much determination and desire for impact. It seems that five collects knowledge and then uses it upon the world, while one with five fix actively scans the world for problems and then searches for solution or leads the team to the problematic spot. What makes it very easy to make a mistype. For years I am slaming my head into the wall over the question: what kind of a 5 makes plans for other people, has so high expectations and desires, ignores/fights impractical models, controls things and enjoys it so much, makes people defensive often etc ... and this is the pretty obvious answer to that question: The 5 that isn't a 5.

I do most of the highlighted, with the exception of making people defensive (as far as I know). I suspect I have 1 in my tritype, but it is not my primary type.

I often feel quite 5ish. However this is because I think that it is often best to stay under the radar and preserve resources that where often scarce. On the other hand there are many pragmatic and bossy elements in me that don't look 5ish at all, which others seem to see much better than I do. I lived as 5 like due to circumstances/upbringing and structure of education system but the numbers just don't add up in the end.

Again, the highlighted is true of me as well. My assertive tendencies are balanced by that desire (or tactic) of staying under the radar. That has served me well over the years. Main enneatype is influenced by wing and tritype, though. MBTI type also provides another dimension into how people think and reflect.