[Type 5] 5s and being assertive

[Virtual ghost]

To answer your original questions:

I consider myself naturally assertive, in that I have never had any problem defending my position or going after what I want. I generally act assertively only when necessary to do one or the other, meaning that I don't assert myself just to get my way when it isn't important, or when I see that things will reach my desired end state without my explicitly asserting myself. I have learned that assertiveness is not always well-received, so use it judiciously. I also value autonomy and don't like other people trying to push myself around, so again, do that to others only when necessary.

I don't often see people getting verbally defensive around me, but to be honest, I'm not sure how that would look. People sometimes disagree with me, but that isn't the same thing. I am sometimes called argumentative, but rarely called angry. I am more often considered intense, opinionated, and determined/persistent. I have been accused of overkill when preparing to present or defend a position.

I'm not sure I can define integration to e8. I have read about it, and nearest I can come to it is what I think of as "ENTJ-mode". This happens when I have to engage directly with groups as a leader, especially in making real-time decisions as things evolve. I can do well at this when I am prepared for it, and even enjoy it, but it is very taxing and eventually I need a break.


I do most of the highlighted, with the exception of making people defensive (as far as I know). I suspect I have 1 in my tritype, but it is not my primary type.


Again, the highlighted is true of me as well. My assertive tendencies are balanced by that desire (or tactic) of staying under the radar. That has served me well over the years. Main enneatype is influenced by wing and tritype, though. MBTI type also provides another dimension into how people think and reflect.

Can I be honest ?

As I was sorting myself out lately I have went through various profiles and many of them were about e1 since that is/was a possiblity for me. Therefore to be honest I think you could be mistyped based on things that I found. I remember that you said that you are 514. While on the other hand ...

1-5-4 : a reserved, cerebral and fairly intuitive One, who has a preference for the realm of the thought and the abstract. They can be very theoretical and philosophical and like to be alone and ponder things for a long time. They have a developed imagination and a deep insight into the nature of things and people. Mainly isolationists, they have a tendency towards spareness and austerity and are generally economical and even avaritious. At times experience gloomy moods which they strangely enjoy.
flavors: theoretical, philosophical, hoarding and insightful

Whereas 1w9s:
Can have an aura of 9-like calm although eruptions of temper are possible.
Often have a detached quality and can be mistaken for Fives.
Tendency to formulate and embrace principles that have little human content, but this is also their strength.
When awakened, may be objective and balanced, cool and moderate in their evaluations.
More entranced, might have perfectionistic expectations that are not humanly possible to meet.
May hold social or political opinions that are supremely logical but ultimately heartless and draconian. The rules come first no matter what.
Can be merciless or unwittingly cruel.
Often a little colorless in their personal appearance.
Plain dressers, preferring functional clothing that is appropriate to context but not flashy. The emphasis on function may extend to their general lifestyle. Practicality is highly valued.

Yesterday I posted you the story of my friend's INTJ mother and you seem to have pretty similar vibe to her (a red flag that I am noticing for years). However she was a 1w9 with strong intellect as she was a doctor/medical researcher. Plus she was married to an INTP for decares. Also I have even seen a research that claims that female 1 and male 5 are pretty good match, actually you seem more of a w9 than w6 to me.



I am sorry if I am causing unnecesary doubt.

 

[Coriolis]

Can I be honest ?

As I was sorting myself out lately I have went through various profiles and many of them were about e1 since that is/was a possiblity for me. Therefore to be honest I think you could be mistyped based on things that I found. I remember that you said that you are 514. While on the other hand ...

Yesterday I posted you the story of my friend's INTJ mother and you seem to have pretty similar vibe to her (a red flag that I am noticing for years). However she was a 1w9 with strong intellect as she was a doctor/medical researcher. Plus she was married to an INTP for decares. Also I have even seen a research that claims that female 1 and male 5 are pretty good match, actually you seem more of a w9 than w6 to me.

I am sorry if I am causing unnecesary doubt.

No problem. Doubt leads to questions, and questions lead to learning. I know much less about enneagram than about MBTI, so have less confidence with assigning types and appreciate new insights. I am fairly certain there are both 1 and 5 in my tritype, and I put 5 as my main type for 2 reasons. (1) After reading many descriptions of both, especially the negatives or weaknesses of both, 5 always comes out a bit ahead; and (2) people who know me and are fairly knowledgeable on enneagram always tell me I am 5 and never 1. But it is always interesting to hear other points of view and get additional feedback. Your first quote (154) does sound alot like me, though the 1w9 less so.

 

[Virtual ghost]

No problem. Doubt leads to questions, and questions lead to learning. I know much less about enneagram than about MBTI, so have less confidence with assigning types and appreciate new insights. I am fairly certain there are both 1 and 5 in my tritype, and I put 5 as my main type for 2 reasons. (1) After reading many descriptions of both, especially the negatives or weaknesses of both, 5 always comes out a bit ahead; and (2) people who know me and are fairly knowledgeable on enneagram always tell me I am 5 and never 1. But it is always interesting to hear other points of view and get additional feedback. Your first quote (154) does sound alot like me, though the 1w9 less so.

Ok.

The problem is that types on their own are not ultra well defined. Therefore when you add fixes, variants and real life circumstance it is possble that the result will look as some other type at face value. In the case that there is only core type I would probably decide to remain a 5. However life made me undeveloped sexual instinct that gives me dry 5-like approach to issues. Even if I am too steamrolling/physical for a classical 5 definition. Also I am generally too nobile for 8w9 profiles but 1w9 often have this conservative vibe that doesn't sound like me at all. Even if basic idea behind the type actually fits me quite well.

So there is a mess once you go deeper into the issue.

 

[Virtual ghost]

But at the end of the day I think I will go with 582 theory. Integration or not I am way too creepy and unconventional person to be 8 in core. However 582+So basically gives strong outward focus that can spill into ENTJ zone without any problems. Especially since it wants to spill into ENTJ zone.



The profiles even say awkward stuff like

2-5-8 - The Dominator

These types, more than anything, need to have the upper hand on people. They may be manipulative and/or domineering. Very often, power hungry.

The rejection types (8-2-5), they said, are most comfortable at the initiation stage of a project or group, when they have to initiate and control things.

Or

5-8-2: these Fives are more focused on and involved with their environments. They’re typically quite imposing and intrusive on others’ lives although they don’t like it when the reverse happens. They are dedicated, courageous, confident and passionate people, sometimes overprotective of their loved ones and having a tendency to dominate and more or less subtly manipulate others into believing as they do. Aiming for a position of power and authority, these Fives have a deep urge to closely control their worlds.

What makes sense because combination of 2,5 and 8 basically means the desire to control/impact intellectual, physical and social sphere. There are days you wouldn't call me e5 no matter what.
I have to be this type just by the number of contradictions in myself.

 

[Virtual ghost]

I think this internal joke is perfect representation of raw 258 energy. The awkward mix of imagination, violence and giving. 340% creepy.

BFG- big fucking gun

 

[Kanra Jest]

How do you perceive or define assertive element in yourself ?

Always having to correct logical fallacies. Always having to let someone know my opinion. Acting more assertive in public to disguise any uncomfortableness. Sometimes makes people think I'm "smug", apparently.

How often people get verbally defensive around you ?

If I am debating, or being a critic about something. Picking something apart. They can. Otherwise...not often.

Do people say you come across as angry or argumentative ?

If we include parents. Then a lot. My need to voice myself resulted in this growing up, and even my blunt honesty in some things. I like to explain my view with someone else's to gain a full understanding but it isn't always met well. I don't see it as arguing but I've been thought of as such. Angry? Not really. I'm usually more laid back in the way I carry myself.

If I'm in a good debate though I can have fun with it. Unless something is flawed logic and the other simply won't understand my view then I can get a bit sharper in my presentation. While not necessarily anger it can come off a bit ... aggressive?

How do you define and experience integration to e8 ?

Unsure.

 

[thepink-cloakedninja]

I am curious about some things and I will express that through a few questions :


How do you perceive or define assertive element in yourself ?

How often people get verbally defensive around you ?

Do people say you come across as angry or argumentative ?

How do you define and experience integration to e8 ?



Feel free to add more questions if you are interested in the topic.

Disclaimer: I'm not entirely sure whether or not I'm a 5.

1. Eeehhhh the only time I'm ever actually assertive is if someone is coming between me and my goals or is putting me in physical or emotional danger. I'm pretty laid back, otherwise, mostly because I view a lot of the things people concern themselves with as unimportant in the long run. I'll let someone walk all over me in the regard of say, eating the last piece of cheese cake, or having me do a couple extra things at work. I just don't think those kinds of things matter, and I'm too lazy to make a fuss about something so trivial. However, if someone tried to say, make me miss class ... WATCH OUT!

2. Definitely not! Usually I'll hold my peace unless someone is really grating on me and/or hurting someone else.

3. Not too often, but when it does happen people get /really/ defensive. It's a bit scary, actually, especially since most of the time I'm just trying to keep myself safe from them.

4. Mostly I find myself becoming more confident in my abilities, will stop feeling inferior to others, and will want to come out and share my insights with people.

 

[Virtual ghost]

However there is one totally different way of thinking about my problem and for months I have this post "hidden" on my computer. It was made when I was moving from 5 to 1 but that didn't work ... and it didn't work for the same reason as all of my type changes.






There is something that is going around my mind lately as I am digging through my mind and trully core stuff. Idea is "crazy" but logic really stands if you think about it.


In the case someone said to me that I will ever write the post like this one I would think that they are completely out of their mind. Yet it it seems that "never say never" is true. The thing is that I am still not happy with my typing since there is still something that is observably off. Therefore to be completely honest I am starting to think I am actually one very deceitfull 3 (towards myself and others). I have said a number of times that 1 fits me very good but the conservative/traditional stuff was never a good fit for what I really do because of my brainy nature. However when you remove conservative stuff from e1 what is left is basically reserved version of e3. In most of my engages with 1s on this forum I have triggered responses like "I never thought of it that way" or "I have a problem with so much change". Also I look 1s in real life and how much they are uncomfortable at the signs of fundamantal change or being "bad", what is almost never too bothersome for me. The catch is that I am pretty good at not appearing as fake because I believe in my image and what I do, even if I struggle with some things about who I really am in core. (thousands of posts here may be taken as the proof)




However when you scratch the surface and connect the dots in a right way all of this really becomes much more obvious.


1. I always ask questions about stuff that will happen or are likely to happen, so that I know how to prepare for the whole thing in order to avoid problems and leave good impression.

2. There were days when I was reading 3 or 4 books a day but I am not sure that was purely for the sake of raw knowledge.

3. When I learned to play poker it took me only 3 games to win over my more experienced teachers.

4. I finnished my highschool at the top of my class.

5. I have took various courses for which I don't really care, simply because that may/will give me more money in the future.

6. I finnished my college on my second langauge and without braking a single deadline.

7. All presentations that I held were rated as good or very good. In general I am considered to be very persuasive person and I constantly push people into plans, successfuly.

8. My father says I am better cook than my mother ... and that really means something to me.

9. I tend to sit in the first line in classes and I got quite a few bonuses for doing that and being seen by the teacher.

10. I never went to drugs, pills, coffe and similar to that but that wasn't really about morals, I simply didn't want to shoot myself in the foot and this gave me huge sense of superiority, plus I knew that I can use the money in better ways.

11. Back in a day I was a shock jock purely for the sake of shock and attention and I was very good at it. From music about very disturbing topics to walking naked around school. (What kind of a 1 would do that?)

12. Some people think I am a saint and pacifist, on the other hand I have beat up some people since I could not tolerate their bullying anymore.

13. I often say "It really depends ...."

14. I am freelancer for highly specialized field and I want to have developed company one day.

15. I have made jokes that people remembered for years. In general people find me easy to remember for some "undefined" reason.

16. My father loves Star Wars: and for years he "insults" me with saying that I have sneeky emperor Palpatine personality.

17. When I was recently changing my MBTI type from INTJ to ENTJ I was very hesitant about that since INTJ was my own image for so many years and I really liked it.

18. I won the comedy contests with overwhelming majority of votes when I was 7.

19. I am very good at finding holes, I have even managed to do that to my dean on the first day.

20. I never typed as 3 because my image isn't that I have "defined image". That is too transparent and mainstream for my liking, not to mention that people must not get the sense that they see image. Therefore people have a really hard time figuring out stuff about me with certainty, since I am not transparent at all. (what looks like a 5 in alot of ways) Today the best way to seduce people is to tell the truth, since truth is in very short supply. On the other hand it can be debated that my image is desire to be smarter and more competent than others around me. (since that is true)

21. I never had more than 10 pounds extra from my ideal weight.

22. When I was studing hard science in college I was very scientfic and 5ish, while now I am somewhat less concerned about scientific principles. Now it also makes more sense to act like a 1 so I am doing a 1 thing.

23. Back in my gaming days I could beat my friends with scores like 50:0 or even 350:0. Some of them didn't even want to talk about it for days ... and that still makes me smile.

24. I started many conversations for the sake of impression or "data gathering".

25. I have often wondered from where 4ish stuff in me are coming from and I never managed to pinpoint that with certainty. While in fact that could simply be my wing. Also some people here see some 6ish traits in me and that would be integration in this case. What in combination with technical expert tritype and NTJness can made me think that I am 5w6, what was my type for years. Integration to six would probably boosts my 1 fix as well.

26. My social alienation can be treated as one very long period of desintegration to 9, 100% flegmatic. However I was never that much of an outsider as much as I took that as my "image". My life was pretty dark and I didn't want it to be like that ... so doing everything I did for the sake of love, security or attention is not crazy concept.

27. I dislike when everything is static and set in stone. Since there is no real challange.

28. My problem with women is for the good part related to the fact that I have a problem being "emotionally naked". However even now when I am doing something about it finally I have concentrated on better looking ones. Since in the end there will still be the question of "compatibility", so it is better to shoot higher from the start. (in my opinion)

29. I dislike messy and inefficient, because this can slow me down in my progress. Also my room was always the cleanest in the house because that gave me sense of superiority. It was often so clean that my parents would come in when I am not at home in order to enjoy the cleaness. (I found them in there a couple of times just lying on the sofa or chairs).





All of this is just a bunch of random facts but basically all of them have one thing in common and that is desire to win. However even with this change I am still in the technical expert tritype zone so there is no fundamental change. Not to mention that technical expert tritype, NTJness, integration to 6 and integration to 9 would in the end look a lot like 5w6 when summed, what was my presented core type for years. The trick is that I am sx last a therefore I lack the glamour of the type 3, especially due to 1w9 an 5w6 fixes. My 3ness is more focused on superb knowledge, wanting to be more knowledgeable and competent than others, providing good advices or results and being able to take any problem with ease because of my advanced expertise.


Plus I think that in this case I will go back to Sp/So in this case, So 3 is a little bit too social for me. The theme of Sp 3 is: I will never be hungry, sick, poor, unloved and incompetent and I can really relate to that when I take a really deep thought about what makes me do things. Sp 3 is known as 1 that isn't 1 and as Sp/So it can look as So/Sp at face value due to 3ish tendecies. Also pilling up achievements and complaining how much your life sucks is pretty stereotypical 3ish behavior. (8ish elements are also likely to appear from time to time)


Therefore when I think of myself as 3 I throw away alot of wisdom about e3.
First, that type and its profiles are quite distorted through American culture that doesn't apply to me, Sp instinct would mild the extroversion part, plus technical expert tritype would push the whole ambition more towards science and knowledge while it would keep it's triple-robotic, triple competency definition. There is no reason that technical expert can't be 3 core and the way how I imagine such person is quite close to what I actually see in my life choices. Plus, since English isn't my first language I may not sound openly 3ish on the forum, but that doesn't mean that I am not having those kinds of thoughts. Many of my posts were made simply because I wanted to show my intellectual edge or I was simply bored.





I relate to 1w9, 3w4, 8w9 and 5w6. But ....

I am too open minded and flexible for a 1
I am too diplomatic and untransparent for an 8
I am too ambitious and bossy for a 5

So maybe I am indeed the type that can look as any other type at any time. This is really reasonable assumption at the end of the day. In the end all of this is all very simple: I am not a thinker but careerist, however I want to have a career of being a thinker.

Therefore In the end I would be ENTJ 3w4, 1w9, 5w6 Sp/So/Sx







Later I was curious and I was digging though enneagram institute website and I found this.

The principal reason these two very different types are confused is that some average Threes (especially if they are intelligent) would like to see themselves as "thinkers." Since Fives are most stereotypically seen as the "intelligent, thinking type," average Threes may choose it rather than the type they actually are. This misidentification is made almost exclusively by Threes since Fives are not likely to think that they are Threes. Average Threes are set up to fulfil the hidden expectations of their parents; so in a family that values intelligence, originality, and intellectual brilliance, it is quite natural for Threes to grow up thinking that they must be those things in order to be worthwhile. Thus, narrow conceptions of the types, or unflattering and unfair presentations of type Three in some Enneagram literature may cause some average Threes to want to be Fives.

We have all been deceived, myself included.

 

[Virtual ghost]

On the second thought: 3w4,1w9,5w6 Sp/So should be the most coolheaded 3 and any change or switching positions should only make a person warmer/passionate. what totally expains the confusion, I do plenty of 5 like stuff since that is how I was rised ... but I don't do them for the reasons why a texbook 5 would.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Thanks.
This is great example of why I can't see myself as core e1 even if I have pretty high e1 scores. The whole thing is too childish and cartoonish for me to see it as the core of my persona. Since I see things in a very fluid and open minded way, what I later turn into fairly rigid but functional system over time. I often feel that I should be 1 but profiles, tests or even people make me look the other way. Which is why I have in the end went with Sp 3 ... the 1 that isn't 1. (and this typing should stay in use for a long time) Especially since I am too loud, pragmatic and physical for a 5 and too brainy and untransparent for an 8. (and other types are surely not too much like me)

Recently I said this but the thing is that I really should be 1. The MAIN reason why my 5ness came into the question is anger and physicality, that others around me tend to notice better then me. The problem is that 3w4 and 5w6 fixes are giving me so much openmidedness that plenty of stuff about 1s doesn't apply to me. 135 tritype is all about competency and that is almost unlinkable to classic e1 profiles , plus my integration towards 7 should boost my 3 fix. Therefore everything on that large list can be explained with fixes, integration and mbti type. Also I should be So instead of Sp but So 3 is too social for me while So 1 isn't, I mean I have be to counter flow type like So/Sp since that is what I am (what is often in conflict with e1 profiles). Plus I thnk that my Superego isn't even that hard to detect in most of my posts.




The whole problem of my typing is probably that:

I am ENTJ that was not born in capitalism.
I am 1 that didn't have religious upbringing at all. As a matter of fact I even had anti-religious upbringing in some elements.


Therefore typology lore does not strictly apply to me even if my cognition is in those categories.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Just to clean up/conclude/clarify this mess of a thread: I am INTJ 513 So/Sp and I never trully stopped thinking that despite all those recent changes (I mean this is the point from where I started to venture into this fictional typing adventure). It is just that people tend to hate when I behave fully like this, however that doesn't really mean that this isn't who I am. The whole story basically comes down to the fact that I don't really feel appreciated under current circumstances. Plus since I have so much to do my 1 and 3 fixes are currently in overdrive. The thing is that I have 6 in wing, 1 and 3 in fixes, 8 in integration and So variant. Therefore I can walk in ENTJ boots when that is needed, however that may add just one more layer of social awkwardness.

5-1-3: exacting, methodical, organized and fairly self-righteous, these Fives have a compulsive need for logic and order in their environment. They are hard-working and more practical and pragmatic than other Fives, focusing on the efficiency and improvement of the systems that interest them. They also enjoy and expect receiving the deserved recognition for their efforts, considering their time and involvement very precious. This tritype is one of the most cool-headed, rigid and self-controlled.
typical subtypes: self-preserving, social, 5w6
similar tritypes: 5-3-1, 3-5-1, 1-5-3
flavours: exigent, methodical, formal and efficient

Therefore until further notice I am out of the loop, since it is only January and my schedule for this year is basically completely full. See you.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Scary.

You recognized some people ?

I recently had that kind of debate with another member. Just if you are telling the truth that doesn't mean that you aren't "manipulating" to your advantage.

 

[Virtual ghost]

This is from 2008.

I had to take this test two times becuse my english created some problems in the process and I ended up with ENTJ.
And there is no chance that I am E.


Cognitive Process Level of Development (Preference, Skill and Frequency of Use)
extraverted Sensing (Se) ******************* (19.5)
limited use
introverted Sensing (Si) ********************* (21.6)
limited use
extraverted Intuiting (Ne) *************************************** (39.9)
excellent use
introverted Intuiting (Ni) ***************************************** (41.7)
excellent use
extraverted Thinking (Te) ************************************************** *** (53.3)
excellent use
introverted Thinking (Ti) ******************************************** (44.1)
excellent use
extraverted Feeling (Fe) *** (4)
unused
introverted Feeling (Fi) **************** (16.3)
limited use

This finally explains why I have the impression that I am very introverted ENTJ.

Since 2008 this hunts me and I am avoiding this due to stereotypes even if tests and real life experiences generally suggest otherwise. Actually you can even see nice T,N,S,F structure in this, however my physical health is better now and Se is stronger ( as well as Fe). I am simply systematically alienated ENTJ rather than INTJ and therefore mistyped the whole time. Same is with enneagram: 3w4 is a professional while 5w6 is problem solver, so it is very easy to mix these two. Especially if you add up the fact that this change doesn't change the tritype archetype (135) and that environment isn't really capitalistic. What is huge deal that typology doesn't even consider as an option. Actually often I even catch myself in typing and think "Is this really what a 5 would say?"


However I did grow up with 3 head types under the same roof and education system that favors head type logic, so I absorbed plenty of that logic even if we all clash over approach pretty often. All this also explains why I generally don't have too much chemistry with ENFPs, I lack that Fi that they like. Since I am too armored.


Conclusion: assertive 5 probably isn't 5.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Next time when I start to post nonsense like this entire thread you are all free to call me out on this.


I am looking people around myself and I just see the error all over the place, especially in all those trendy women on the street. Am I really in the same box as them ? No way.

Here is actually my first tritype that is probably the correct one all along.

5-8-3: a more ambitious, materialistic and dominant Five, who has a talent for leadership and a desire for achievement. More competitive and assertive than others, these Fives manage to get out of their shells more often to experience life in a more direct manner and obtain a position of power and success. Although still reserved and secretive, they exude a certain amount of self-confidence and strength which prevents their true vulnerabilities from being guessed by others (a huge fear of this tritype).
typical subtypes: social, self-preserving, 5w6 (counterphobic wing)

And this is why I don't feel like a five in so many situations even if I am very very mentally strong and flexible. Since there are many days when my fixes and variant overpower the core, which actually wants to fulfill it's potential fully. Also I have dating issues since I am not onto being vulnerable and due to 3 fix I can make 3ish social impression if I have to. This is actually why I can feel fake since I skip certain contacts, especially since I know that if I am too honest the person will find itself attacked. I used to be different but the practice and results have shown that it isn't too smart too be too blunt with people. Plus collectivistic environment/culture makes sure that I am always a part of something, what typology doesn't consider too much. Why push independent story when the government is paying fully your Master degree, gives you fully free healthcare so that you can study in peace and they are probably most likely ones to give you a good/creative job in the end (fairly paid job). Adjusting typology to compensate for the lack of market is a chore.