[Other/Multiple Enneatypes] The difference between e2 and e3

[Virtual ghost]

For me these two types were always unclear and I have a problem defining what is which type. Especially since I don't relate to heart triad and their problems that much.
To me 2w3 and 3w2 can look like twins, while 2w1 and 3w4 can also seem similar from what I see.


So I will start with questions about thoughts on the issue.


1. How do you tell the difference between a 3 and ambitious 2 ?
2. How to tell the difference between a 3 and 2 that wants to suck in money and resources as much as possible in order that he/she can help more people ?
3. Does 3 only need to look successful or there is actual need to trully be successful ?
4. Who is likely to be a bigger control freak ? Why ?
5. Is there a observable difference in how both types seduce people ? (sexually and mentally)
6. Are 2s more noble than 3s ?
7. Do you see any noticable differences in both types regarding the split in gender ?
8. What both types expect or give in the terms of romance/dating ?
9. Do both types often pretend that they are the other type ? (because that benefits them)


How do you tell those two apert ?

 

[Virtual ghost]

No one ?

 

[Tilt]

I was going to respond when I have access to an actual computer.

 

[violet_crown]

How do you tell those two apart ?

Best place to start is similarities. Both e2s and e3s are in the heart/image triad of the enneagram. It is the triad whose fundamental concern is identity, so 2s, 3s and 4s all wrestle with questions related to their perception by others, self-worth and relationships.

So 2s and 3s care about a lot of the same things. What distinguishes them is approach.

3s use achievement and status as a means to love and acceptance. They like to be seen as leaders, and strive to be successful in whatever they do.

2s use help and support as a means to love and acceptance. They're the kind of people who will go out of their way to take care of the needs of those around them, and to make sure that others feel supported and validated.

The point is that if you're evaluating the two types in terms of their goals, you won't see much difference. You have to look at what they emphasize about themselves and how they apparently wish to be seen.

 

[HongDou]

The point is that if you're evaluating the two types in terms of their goals, you won't see much difference. You have to look at what they emphasize about themselves and how they apparently wish to be seen.

Yes, I was going to say something along these lines but gave up but luckily you came in and articulated it much better than I could have.

I think when thinking about 2 and 3 you have to eradicate the words "helping" and "money/resources" from your thinking completely. Like Rex said, 3s strive to be successful at whatever they do...which may not necessarily be climbing the corporate ladder. I think above all else 3s will be whatever they want to be, the core requirement being that they excel at it and receive acknowledgment for it. I remember a while back I talked about how the theater community at my school (we have a big performing arts program) was very 3ish. Everyone was very friendly and lively around each other and they would regularly burst out into song and use big dramatic expressions. At first you wouldn't think of people who are that open and free along the lines of e3 as it gives off more of an impression of one who is controlled and calculated, but then you start to realize the very fact that their personalities stand out to such an extent is what's giving them that acknowledgment and validation. Regardless of the 3's actual sense of identity, the establishment of their admirable qualities is what's helping them run away from their core fear.

OTOH 2s may not necessarily help and care for others (like 3, 2 can be whatever it wants to be), but it's a common manifestation of their desire to feel loved and worthy of it. I think there are many 2s (especially women) who can present themselves as wild partiers too, because providing a fun atmosphere also helps one create a positive loving relationship between people. Examples aside, 2 also feels an inherently lack of self-worth like 3 and so needs validation from the outside to satisfy that hole. But where 3 craves high esteem from others to get that validation of love and worth, 2 craves the sense that they are personally lovable for that validation.

TL;DR it's a very nuanced line, but I believe the core difference between 2s and 3s has to do with whether their strategy is more or less interpersonal. With 2s they want to emphasize how lovable they are, so they will focus on aspects of themselves that foster positive loving (platonic or romantic) relationships, while with 3s they want to emphasize how admirable they are so instead they focus more on their qualities that are worthy of reverence and appreciation.

I think 2s and 3s can be one of the hardest types to read as well because you can't just get insight into their type from their surface behavior - there is a lot more to read between the lines and depending on how well-constructed their image is (and this is often a case of self-deceit so this is something hard for even themselves) it can be hard to break through and see the true motives lying underneath.

 

[Virtual ghost]

I was going to respond when I have access to an actual computer.

You are still free to do it, I am still accepting answers.

Best place to start is similarities. Both e2s and e3s are in the heart/image triad of the enneagram. It is the triad whose fundamental concern is identity, so 2s, 3s and 4s all wrestle with questions related to their perception by others, self-worth and relationships.

So 2s and 3s care about a lot of the same things. What distinguishes them is approach.

3s use achievement and status as a means to love and acceptance. They like to be seen as leaders, and strive to be successful in whatever they do.

2s use help and support as a means to love and acceptance. They're the kind of people who will go out of their way to take care of the needs of those around them, and to make sure that others feel supported and validated.

The point is that if you're evaluating the two types in terms of their goals, you won't see much difference. You have to look at what they emphasize about themselves and how they apparently wish to be seen.

I think that this is very good point and perhaps the main thing I find confusing.

However I am not sure that your claim/post is always correct. What you said about 3s is correct but in more private settings they may show quite a few 2-like qualities. On the other hand 2 may do reverse of that is professional environment. This flip-floping is what "confuses" me a I don't really see this that much among other all other types. Where do you draw the line between helping and proving your abilities ?

 

[Evo]

Imo 2s come off as wanting to be more "indispensable" to people. Not necessarily to success. And 2s can tend to go out if their way, to make that "indispensableness" known to others.

 

[Tilt]

From what I noticed, 2s tend to fixate on reciprocation and subtle power plays. 3s will play the reciprocation game (as a means to an end) but they are bit too self-involved in the overall end goals to be overly concerned about it. They actually are more likely to take others for granted whereas 2s tend to build up anger and resentment for others not reciprocating enough.


To me, 3w2s vibe as highly self-involved but generous whereas 2w3s vibe as generous, helpful boasters.

 

[Kierva]

To give some real-world examples, my mother is a 2 and I'm a 3.

Aside from generational differences, our emphasis is quite different.

For example, when we have guests over, my mother is very accommodating, to the point of being smothering. I consider her one of the best hosts if you're staying over at house, because she will fulfil your every request, even if it means sacrificing our space and comfort. She does this in a friendly and loving manner, because she wants her guests to "love" her for what she has to offer, even if it's not much.

Me? I'll just be as accommodating, but up to a point. I can't sustain it for days like she does, maybe one or two days, max. I'm way less people-focused than she is, and that earns me this "cold" reputation in comparison to her.

In a similar vein, whenever my relatives come to my house, they remember us for different things. We are admired, but in different ways.

My mother is remembered by them as this superhero single mother who sacrificed all her time, money and energy into raising her kids. But with all that sacrifice, there has to be a catch, right? Of course there is. When guests are not around, my brother and I are frequently reminded of how ungrateful, selfish and unhelpful we are to her. On top of that, if she wants something from us, she bribes us with things. For example, in order to get my brother to go to religious school, she bought him an iPhone. My mother tried to do the same to me, but I refused it, preferring to get it myself, because I knew something like this was going to happen.

In comparison, I am remembered as the smart, competent and independent son who ran the house while mom was at work. Whenever they saw me, I was always in the kitchen, working hard to serve them, where I would be making drinks, preparing and cooking the food -- just making sure everything is running as smoothly and as quickly as possible. Because of this, I never really learned how to interact with guests, which gives me this somewhat (again) "cold" reputation with guests. I have also been accused of being arrogant and dismissive of people's needs, because it honestly does not occur to me how to be accommodating to others.

Most of my thoughts center around self-advancement and the objects I want to attain. I'm quite fixated on moving to the States and setting up shop there, driving around in my sweet new BMW with a husband as a beautiful accessory. In the context of guests in the present moment, thoughts that run through my head are along the lines of how good of a husband I will be because of what I can do in the kitchen, how nice and presentable my house will be for future guests, how impressive the facade of my home will be with that BMW sitting in the driveway, things like that. It is as if I am practicing for the future, and it's a bit of a game to me. I'm 100% focused on beating that game.

 

[Virtual ghost]

This thread shouldn't have died, so ...

From what I noticed, 2s tend to fixate on reciprocation and subtle power plays. 3s will play the reciprocation game (as a means to an end) but they are bit too self-involved in the overall end goals to be overly concerned about it. They actually are more likely to take others for granted whereas 2s tend to build up anger and resentment for others not reciprocating enough.

To me, 3w2s vibe as highly self-involved but generous whereas 2w3s vibe as generous, helpful boasters.

If it isn't too late: what kind of power plays 2s care about ? (towards your opinion)

To give some real-world examples, my mother is a 2 and I'm a 3.

Aside from generational differences, our emphasis is quite different.

For example, when we have guests over, my mother is very accommodating, to the point of being smothering. I consider her one of the best hosts if you're staying over at house, because she will fulfil your every request, even if it means sacrificing our space and comfort. She does this in a friendly and loving manner, because she wants her guests to "love" her for what she has to offer, even if it's not much.

Me? I'll just be as accommodating, but up to a point. I can't sustain it for days like she does, maybe one or two days, max. I'm way less people-focused than she is, and that earns me this "cold" reputation in comparison to her.

In a similar vein, whenever my relatives come to my house, they remember us for different things. We are admired, but in different ways.

My mother is remembered by them as this superhero single mother who sacrificed all her time, money and energy into raising her kids. But with all that sacrifice, there has to be a catch, right? Of course there is. When guests are not around, my brother and I are frequently reminded of how ungrateful, selfish and unhelpful we are to her. On top of that, if she wants something from us, she bribes us with things. For example, in order to get my brother to go to religious school, she bought him an iPhone. My mother tried to do the same to me, but I refused it, preferring to get it myself, because I knew something like this was going to happen.

In comparison, I am remembered as the smart, competent and independent son who ran the house while mom was at work. Whenever they saw me, I was always in the kitchen, working hard to serve them, where I would be making drinks, preparing and cooking the food -- just making sure everything is running as smoothly and as quickly as possible. Because of this, I never really learned how to interact with guests, which gives me this somewhat (again) "cold" reputation with guests. I have also been accused of being arrogant and dismissive of people's needs, because it honestly does not occur to me how to be accommodating to others.

Most of my thoughts center around self-advancement and the objects I want to attain. I'm quite fixated on moving to the States and setting up shop there, driving around in my sweet new BMW with a husband as a beautiful accessory. In the context of guests in the present moment, thoughts that run through my head are along the lines of how good of a husband I will be because of what I can do in the kitchen, how nice and presentable my house will be for future guests, how impressive the facade of my home will be with that BMW sitting in the driveway, things like that. It is as if I am practicing for the future, and it's a bit of a game to me. I'm 100% focused on beating that game.

If it isn't a secret: What is MBTI of you and you mother ?

 

[Tilt]

This thread shouldn't have died, so ...





If it isn't too late: what kind of power plays 2s care about ? (towards your opinion)

They don't necessarily care about it persay but an unhealthy 2 might say something like, "I did so much for you.... why don't you appreciate me?" it's like an impliicit expectation of reciprocation as a way to gain love and acceptance from others. If they feel slighted or resentful of the lack of exchange, they can retaliate overtly or in passive-aggressiveness. (when stressed out a lot, they go towards 8 tendencies).

 

[Virtual ghost]

They don't necessarily care about it persay but an unhealthy 2 might say something like, "I did so much for you.... why don't you appreciate me?" it's like an impliicit expectation of reciprocation as a way to gain love and acceptance from others. If they feel slighted or resentful of the lack of exchange, they can retaliate overtly or in passive-aggressiveness.

Silly counter question: why would bolded be unhealthy ? To me this is more like common sense. (in the case that anything was actually done)


I ask because it seems that I am probably 2w1 fixed.

 

[Tilt]

Silly counter question: why would bolded be unhealthy ? To me this is more like common sense. (in the case that anything was actually done)


I ask because it seems that I am probably 2w1 fixed.

Oh i mean 2s will sometimes overextend to help other or do projects in the hopes of gaining love or acceptance from others.. There's a catch to giving the help instead of doing it for the sake of doing it. Unhealthy 2s will hold it against you like keeping a score if you don't live up to expectations of reciprocation of how much they feel they have done for you. That is what I meant with that phrase.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Oh i mean 2s will sometimes overextend to help other or do projects in the hopes of gaining love or acceptance from others.. There's a catch to giving the help instead of doing it for the sake of doing it. Unhealthy 2s will hold it against you like keeping a score if you don't live up to expectations of reciprocation of how much they feel they have done for you. That is what I meant with that phrase.

Ok, but why wouldn't a person with 3 in the mix do the same thing ? What would a person with a e3 in the mix probably do in similar situation ?



This whole thread was started because I came to realization that I am probably mixing my INTJnss, my variant and 8w9 fix for 3w4 fix.

 

[Tilt]

Ok, but why wouldn't a person with 3 in the mix do the same thing ? What would a person with a e3 in the mix probably do in similar situation ?



This whole thread was started because I came to realization that I am probably mixing my INTJnss, my variant and 8w9 fix for 3w4 fix.

The primary mode of a 3 would not focus on the reciprocation but would be moreso to achieve a certain end goal or to fit into whatever image they deem valuable....3s are fixates on being seen as something of value....3s will tend not to overextend themselves without a certain end because they value efficiency/competency.

 

[Virtual ghost]

The primary mode of a 3 would not focus on the reciprocation but would be moreso to achieve a certain end goal or to fit into whatever image they deem valuable....3s are fixates on being seen as something of value....3s will tend not to overextend themselves without a certain end because they value efficiency/competency.

That is actually confusing part, since I am not sure where to draw the line between efficiency and being helpful. Because the more efficient you are the more helpful you become (if we cut of the "being evil" thing).

Also I like to be the person you give a call when everything are going to hell. What can be seen as competency and being helpful.

 

[Dreamer]

This thread shouldn't have died, so ...





If it isn't too late: what kind of power plays 2s care about ? (towards your opinion)





If it isn't a secret: What is MBTI of you and you mother ?

I'm glad you brought this thread back as I am trying to figure out a possible 2 typing of myself. I am giving and generous, I used to be entirely oblivious to this until it was brought to my attention by some other members, but I also have my limits in how far out of the way I will go to help others. To be honest, I don't think that rope is all that long either. I am definitely a 7, that much is for sure, but I'm curious if I have a 2 in my tritype. 4 is another possibility. Well shoot, fragments of 3 are close to me too.

Anyhow, curious to see more posts to this thread.

 

[Virtual ghost]

This is me in real life:

If you are a 258 type, you are caring, knowledgeable and protective. You want to be helpful, wise and straight- forward. You are an intellectual ambivert both extroverted and introverted. You are caring and can easily move towards others to help, or feel over extended and feel the need to be pull away. Your life mission is to help, inform and/or protect others. A true analyst, you are happiest when you are in a position of leadership and can use your natural instinct to understand strategic principles to guide others. You can be so identified with your opinions that you can be too forward or too distant from others, which can appear intense, unpredictable and intimidating

However when you take a deeper look there is quite a few 3ish elements in the story. Since 258 and 358 types are likely to do the same thing, but for somewhat different reasons.

 

[Kierva]

If it isn't a secret: What is MBTI of you and you mother ?

My mother is most likely an ESFJ, while I am either an ESFP or ENTJ, depending on the context and mood.

 

[Kierva]

That is actually confusing part, since I am not sure where to draw the line between efficiency and being helpful. Because the more efficient you are the more helpful you become (if we cut of the "being evil" thing).

Also I like to be the person you give a call when everything are going to hell. What can be seen as competency and being helpful.

Not necessarily. I have been in this situation many times at work.

I am helpful not because I have a need to be appreciated in terms of love, I am helpful because I want to rise above the rest -- to be the first guy in people's minds if they need someone to get the job done swiftly and competently.

But this has its drawbacks -- when I'm very busy with my own projects, something almost always goes wrong, and I am the go-to guy whenever that happens. They'll look for me to help them solve whatever problems they have, and more often than not I'll just drop whatever I'm doing, to solve it. That feeling when something is done or solved because of your competence/capabilities, and they affirm that with positive words, is the best drug in the world.